4 ms·

Wow, and pron is spreading FUD again. Getting a bit desperate that absolutely no one cares about Kotlin?

pron 12y ago
It is because I belong to that tiny group of developers who do care about programming languages that I even mention it. But I care a lot more about software in general, and if you look at the industry at large, absolutely no one (for all intents and purposes) cares about any language other than Java, C, C++, JavaScript and C# (plus some Matlab and maybe R, I guess). So I do have some strong opinions, but I put them in perspective. Until IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, SAP and a couple of large defense contractors -- all the true big players in software -- put their weight behind one or two "new" languages, all arguments over PL merits are kind of moot. Frankly, I don't blame the big guys for not switching languages just yet. None of the challenger languages have shown such incredible advantages -- in correctness, performance or time to market -- to justify such a costly switch (certainly no world-changing benefits as C and Java offered). In fact, some technical leads in prominent SV companies have told me that their main reason for picking a non-mainstream language wasn't technical: it was to appease their novelty seeking developers. I think there are two languages that might make a real difference -- Clojure and Haskell -- and they are, unfortunately, still far from conclusively proving their case. If Rust makes it to the embedded space, it could prove a real contender, too. In general, most new languages overpromise and underdeliver.
- pkolaczk 12y ago
  IBM, Oracle, Microsoft and SAP is not the end of all IT. Don't underestimate the long-tail. Anyways, there are already quite a few big names using Scala. So this is not "absolutely no one". And you forgot about Google and Python in your list.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  A) appeasing novelty seeking developers is not a negative. If a company using a particular language can attract developers that are more productive in a novel language than those other developers they might find in a "mainline" language. That is certainly a win. B) You left out at least 3 major languages that are hugely represented in large enterprises. Visual Basic (especially in the Access/Excel variety), SQL (in it's standard and non-standard formats) and COBOL. Those languages also offered huge advantages that any language trying to gain widespread appeal might want to study. That said, I certainly am not taking any job that is majority VB, SQL, or COBOL coding and none of the best developers I know (selection bias could be an issue) will either.
  - pron 12y ago
    If a company using a particular language can attract developers that are more productive in a novel language than those other developers they might find in a "mainline" language. That is certainly a win. I don't think it is. Those CTOs/lead developers told me that the "novel language" teams are just as productive as other teams, and, in fact, tend to be less disciplined (and I'm talking top tier, millions-of-customers, technologically advanced, SV companies here). The only reason they allow those new languages is to attract young developers who get their kicks out of a new PL. If anything, this shows that some developers are immature, or that tech companies aren't doing stuff that's challenging and interesting enough on its own that developers need occupy themselves with the novelty of the language rather than with the novelty of the problem.

pron 12y ago

It is because I belong to that tiny group of developers who do care about programming languages that I even mention it. But I care a lot more about software in general, and if you look at the industry at large, absolutely no one (for all intents and purposes) cares about any language other than Java, C, C++, JavaScript and C# (plus some Matlab and maybe R, I guess). So I do have some strong opinions, but I put them in perspective. Until IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, SAP and a couple of large defense contractors -- all the true big players in software -- put their weight behind one or two "new" languages, all arguments over PL merits are kind of moot. Frankly, I don't blame the big guys for not switching languages just yet. None of the challenger languages have shown such incredible advantages -- in correctness, performance or time to market -- to justify such a costly switch (certainly no world-changing benefits as C and Java offered). In fact, some technical leads in prominent SV companies have told me that their main reason for picking a non-mainstream language wasn't technical: it was to appease their novelty seeking developers. I think there are two languages that might make a real difference -- Clojure and Haskell -- and they are, unfortunately, still far from conclusively proving their case. If Rust makes it to the embedded space, it could prove a real contender, too. In general, most new languages overpromise and underdeliver.

pkolaczk 12y ago
IBM, Oracle, Microsoft and SAP is not the end of all IT. Don't underestimate the long-tail. Anyways, there are already quite a few big names using Scala. So this is not "absolutely no one". And you forgot about Google and Python in your list.
kasey_junk 12y ago
A) appeasing novelty seeking developers is not a negative. If a company using a particular language can attract developers that are more productive in a novel language than those other developers they might find in a "mainline" language. That is certainly a win. B) You left out at least 3 major languages that are hugely represented in large enterprises. Visual Basic (especially in the Access/Excel variety), SQL (in it's standard and non-standard formats) and COBOL. Those languages also offered huge advantages that any language trying to gain widespread appeal might want to study. That said, I certainly am not taking any job that is majority VB, SQL, or COBOL coding and none of the best developers I know (selection bias could be an issue) will either.
- pron 12y ago
  If a company using a particular language can attract developers that are more productive in a novel language than those other developers they might find in a "mainline" language. That is certainly a win. I don't think it is. Those CTOs/lead developers told me that the "novel language" teams are just as productive as other teams, and, in fact, tend to be less disciplined (and I'm talking top tier, millions-of-customers, technologically advanced, SV companies here). The only reason they allow those new languages is to attract young developers who get their kicks out of a new PL. If anything, this shows that some developers are immature, or that tech companies aren't doing stuff that's challenging and interesting enough on its own that developers need occupy themselves with the novelty of the language rather than with the novelty of the problem.