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Great work! I love when organic user behaviors are recognized and made first class features. Allow me to emphasize something from the Show HN Guidelines[1]: >

Great work! I love when organic user behaviors are recognized and made first class features. Allow me to emphasize something from the Show HN Guidelines[1]: > Be respectful. Anyone sharing creative work is making a contribution, however modest. > Ask questions out of curiosity. Don't cross-examine. > Instead of "you're doing it wrong", suggest alternatives. When someone is learning, help them learn more. > When something isn't good, you needn't pretend that it is. But in that case, consider saying nothing. The comments section of Show HN posts are not an invitation for you to tear someone apart for your own self-aggrandizing glory. If you want to be helpful, be constructive. If you don't want to be helpful, don't bother. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- rrhoover 12y ago
  Glad to see this. Show HN has always been my favorite part of Hacker News. Anything that can inspire more creation and help product builders find an audience, is a good thing, imo.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - lalwanivikas 12y ago
    Nice to see you here! I don't mean to be rude, but how do you think it can impact Product Hunt?
    - guptaneil 12y ago
      I only recently joined Product Hunt, but to me the major differentiator is that Show HN are self-submitted products, while Product Hunt is a curated list. That means I'm more likely to find higher quality and interesting products on Product Hunt, but I'll be the first to learn about a new product from Show HN.
      - melvinmt 12y ago
        But /show is also curated, ranked by votes. /shownew is where you can find the latest.
    - rrhoover 12y ago
      I didn't take offense, lalwanivikas. The fact that you mentioned Product Hunt is more flattering, actually. As dang mentioned, there's room for both. The HN / PH communities are significantly different and will increasingly look dissimilar over time.
      - GraffitiTim 12y ago
        In what ways do you think the communities will diverge over time?
- nothxbro 12y ago
  Lets hope so!
- dang 12y ago
  I'd say there's obviously room for both. I'm afraid this comment is more than a little off-topic: maybe not for the thread as a whole, but certainly as a reply to the top comment. It doesn't relate to what rickhanlonii said in any way—and what rickhanlonii touched on is crucial: the kind of discussions we want to encourage in Show HN threads. Let's talk about that instead, please.
  - lalwanivikas 12y ago
    Sorry dang, my mistake. Let me post it again separately so that we can talk about guidelines here.
bane 12y ago
Absolutely agree on these guidelines. It takes a lot of bravery to put yourself out there in public. It should take just as much class to offer advice and constructive criticism instead of tearing somebody else's work down. edit also, is it just me or is the front page plastered with Show HN links? Does anybody else think that's awesome?
- adventured 12y ago
  Almost makes me wonder if there should be a karma requirement to comment on Show HN posts. I hate restrictions generally speaking, and I don't know if it's safe to assume longer tenured members inherently have more class when offering feedback.
  - krapp 12y ago
    >I don't know if it's safe to assume longer tenured members inherently have more class when offering feedback. I don't think it is. If anything, tenured members may feel more entitled to be rude without consequences. Karma isn't really a measure of civility so much as popularity over time, and it doesn't really communicate any context. Also, if there were a minimum for commenting, there should be a minimum for posting, which might leave new users with interesting projects out.
    - derefr 12y ago
      > Also, if there were a minimum for commenting, there should be a minimum for posting, which might leave new users with interesting projects out. I don't get that implication. The commenters, if seen as offering mentorship, should necessarily be more experienced than the people they're trying to help. Otherwise, what's the point?
      - krapp 12y ago
        If karma is a valid measure of poster quality then surely it's just as important to ensure a higher standard for posts as well as comments. If, on the other hand, karma doesn't indicate experience in anything other than getting karma, then it's irrelevant either way. I happen to believe the latter is more true than the former.
001sky 12y ago
Maybe the guidelines should be stickied up top, along with the current explanation text, at least while this gets going! https://news.ycombinator.com/show https://news.ycombinator.com/show =/= https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html edit: they are, but just not called out as such. [Show HN] is for something you've made that other people can play with. The newest Show HNs are listed [here]. (eg clicking the first hyperlink will bring them up)
- dang 12y ago
  Yes, we clearly need to make those more prominent. Edit: we changed it to emphasize the Show HN guidelines more. Edit 2: I think we'll also write something much more detailed about the kind of discussions we want in Show HN threads: discussions that foster further creativity. Perhaps we'll put it up on the YC blog and then have a new thread about all this, once the dust settles from the first Show HN carnival.
  - 001sky 12y ago
    > Show HN is for sharing your work. Please read the [guidelines]. A list of the most recent Show HNs is [here]. . . . Looks good, nice and concise.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
davidw 12y ago
Something that's elsewhere in the guidelines is: pretend your talking to someone in person and think what you'd say. For me that strikes the right balance - I might find things I'm not enthusiastic about, but I'd weight my words carefully.
Arjuna 12y ago
I agree 100%. In addition, a friendly reminder to us all... When you see a Show HN, assume that whoever created it, perhaps not unlike you, is working to drive his or her dreams into existence. Each post represents a dream, a personal story, a literal piece of their Life. For many of us, perhaps the majority of us, that means grinding at the mine during the day, returning home after perhaps a long commute, spending time with and cooking for our family, our significant other, etc... then, clocking back in at 9:00pm or 10:00pm to bring it for the next several, precious hours, working to make the dream real... then catching some sleep, waking up and turning around and dropping the hammer all over again. It's just something to remember as you comment to someone about their work.
- sinwave 12y ago
  This is a great comment. An upvote wasn't enough.
- Sprint 12y ago
  The problem is that people are different. Some people will like the diverse community at HN to scrutinise their work to potentially improve it. Otherwise just want positive reinforcement. You can't really put both sides into the same bucket and decide that everyone should sugarcoat all the time. I love criticising and my projects being criticised as long as there clearly is knowledge or experience behind. What if you see someone making a huge mistake based on your knowledge, should you stay quiet? Making sure that feedback comes across as nice and well-intended can be hard and time consuming for people who speak English as a second or third language. So maybe there should be a differentiation between "Proudly presenting" and "Looking for honest feedback" somehow?
  - roflc0ptic 12y ago
    I don't think anyone is suggesting a lack of honest feedback. I don't like the phrase "constructive criticism" because it's been used into meaningless, but that's basically what's being suggested. Let me try an example instead of a definition. Let's say someone is making a clear architectural misstep: They're trying to use python/django on a project, but their goals really require something like Tornado, and they're building themselves into a corner. Maybe from where you're sitting it looks like an idiot mistake. The question is then, how to engage? Do you tell them condescendingly that only an idiot would misuse tools like that, and that they're foolishly the HTTP request/response model that Django implements? Or, do you try to guess at where their knowledge fails, and give them links to writeups about asynchronous programming? Or do you engage them in conversation and try to ascertain why they're making the mistake, and gently explain that better programming models have been devised for the problem they're trying to solve, and why don't they look into it and see if they agree, and "by the way if you have any more questions here's my email, I'd be happy to help." If people can't handle receiving this last approach, then it speaks to a certain lack of immaturity. If people can't handle acting taking this, it also speaks to a certain lack of maturity. We should try to build and enforce social norms that help growth as programmers and minimize conflict. Fortunately these goals aren't inimical; in fact, the more contentious the discussion, the less learning gets done.
pepon 12y ago
I came here to say exactly that. I couldn't agree more with the guidelines and with your comment.
blrgeek 12y ago
Can we put these (or a shortened form) on every Show HN post automatically before the comment box? Something like: > Is your comment respectful & helpful? > Is it positive criticism? Please?
- dang 12y ago
  We've actually talked about that, but it feels a bit nannyish.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

rrhoover 12y ago
Glad to see this. Show HN has always been my favorite part of Hacker News. Anything that can inspire more creation and help product builders find an audience, is a good thing, imo.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- lalwanivikas 12y ago
  Nice to see you here! I don't mean to be rude, but how do you think it can impact Product Hunt?
  - guptaneil 12y ago
    I only recently joined Product Hunt, but to me the major differentiator is that Show HN are self-submitted products, while Product Hunt is a curated list. That means I'm more likely to find higher quality and interesting products on Product Hunt, but I'll be the first to learn about a new product from Show HN.
    - melvinmt 12y ago
      But /show is also curated, ranked by votes. /shownew is where you can find the latest.
  - rrhoover 12y ago
    I didn't take offense, lalwanivikas. The fact that you mentioned Product Hunt is more flattering, actually. As dang mentioned, there's room for both. The HN / PH communities are significantly different and will increasingly look dissimilar over time.
    - GraffitiTim 12y ago
      In what ways do you think the communities will diverge over time?
nothxbro 12y ago
Lets hope so!
dang 12y ago
I'd say there's obviously room for both. I'm afraid this comment is more than a little off-topic: maybe not for the thread as a whole, but certainly as a reply to the top comment. It doesn't relate to what rickhanlonii said in any way—and what rickhanlonii touched on is crucial: the kind of discussions we want to encourage in Show HN threads. Let's talk about that instead, please.
- lalwanivikas 12y ago
  Sorry dang, my mistake. Let me post it again separately so that we can talk about guidelines here.

bane 12y ago

Absolutely agree on these guidelines. It takes a lot of bravery to put yourself out there in public. It should take just as much class to offer advice and constructive criticism instead of tearing somebody else's work down. edit also, is it just me or is the front page plastered with Show HN links? Does anybody else think that's awesome?

adventured 12y ago
Almost makes me wonder if there should be a karma requirement to comment on Show HN posts. I hate restrictions generally speaking, and I don't know if it's safe to assume longer tenured members inherently have more class when offering feedback.
- krapp 12y ago
  >I don't know if it's safe to assume longer tenured members inherently have more class when offering feedback. I don't think it is. If anything, tenured members may feel more entitled to be rude without consequences. Karma isn't really a measure of civility so much as popularity over time, and it doesn't really communicate any context. Also, if there were a minimum for commenting, there should be a minimum for posting, which might leave new users with interesting projects out.
  - derefr 12y ago
    > Also, if there were a minimum for commenting, there should be a minimum for posting, which might leave new users with interesting projects out. I don't get that implication. The commenters, if seen as offering mentorship, should necessarily be more experienced than the people they're trying to help. Otherwise, what's the point?
    - krapp 12y ago
      If karma is a valid measure of poster quality then surely it's just as important to ensure a higher standard for posts as well as comments. If, on the other hand, karma doesn't indicate experience in anything other than getting karma, then it's irrelevant either way. I happen to believe the latter is more true than the former.

001sky 12y ago

Maybe the guidelines should be stickied up top, along with the current explanation text, at least while this gets going! https://news.ycombinator.com/show https://news.ycombinator.com/show =/= https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html edit: they are, but just not called out as such. [Show HN] is for something you've made that other people can play with. The newest Show HNs are listed [here]. (eg clicking the first hyperlink will bring them up)

dang 12y ago
Yes, we clearly need to make those more prominent. Edit: we changed it to emphasize the Show HN guidelines more. Edit 2: I think we'll also write something much more detailed about the kind of discussions we want in Show HN threads: discussions that foster further creativity. Perhaps we'll put it up on the YC blog and then have a new thread about all this, once the dust settles from the first Show HN carnival.
- 001sky 12y ago
  > Show HN is for sharing your work. Please read the [guidelines]. A list of the most recent Show HNs is [here]. . . . Looks good, nice and concise.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

davidw 12y ago

Something that's elsewhere in the guidelines is: pretend your talking to someone in person and think what you'd say. For me that strikes the right balance - I might find things I'm not enthusiastic about, but I'd weight my words carefully.

Arjuna 12y ago

I agree 100%. In addition, a friendly reminder to us all... When you see a Show HN, assume that whoever created it, perhaps not unlike you, is working to drive his or her dreams into existence. Each post represents a dream, a personal story, a literal piece of their Life. For many of us, perhaps the majority of us, that means grinding at the mine during the day, returning home after perhaps a long commute, spending time with and cooking for our family, our significant other, etc... then, clocking back in at 9:00pm or 10:00pm to bring it for the next several, precious hours, working to make the dream real... then catching some sleep, waking up and turning around and dropping the hammer all over again. It's just something to remember as you comment to someone about their work.

sinwave 12y ago
This is a great comment. An upvote wasn't enough.
Sprint 12y ago
The problem is that people are different. Some people will like the diverse community at HN to scrutinise their work to potentially improve it. Otherwise just want positive reinforcement. You can't really put both sides into the same bucket and decide that everyone should sugarcoat all the time. I love criticising and my projects being criticised as long as there clearly is knowledge or experience behind. What if you see someone making a huge mistake based on your knowledge, should you stay quiet? Making sure that feedback comes across as nice and well-intended can be hard and time consuming for people who speak English as a second or third language. So maybe there should be a differentiation between "Proudly presenting" and "Looking for honest feedback" somehow?
- roflc0ptic 12y ago
  I don't think anyone is suggesting a lack of honest feedback. I don't like the phrase "constructive criticism" because it's been used into meaningless, but that's basically what's being suggested. Let me try an example instead of a definition. Let's say someone is making a clear architectural misstep: They're trying to use python/django on a project, but their goals really require something like Tornado, and they're building themselves into a corner. Maybe from where you're sitting it looks like an idiot mistake. The question is then, how to engage? Do you tell them condescendingly that only an idiot would misuse tools like that, and that they're foolishly the HTTP request/response model that Django implements? Or, do you try to guess at where their knowledge fails, and give them links to writeups about asynchronous programming? Or do you engage them in conversation and try to ascertain why they're making the mistake, and gently explain that better programming models have been devised for the problem they're trying to solve, and why don't they look into it and see if they agree, and "by the way if you have any more questions here's my email, I'd be happy to help." If people can't handle receiving this last approach, then it speaks to a certain lack of immaturity. If people can't handle acting taking this, it also speaks to a certain lack of maturity. We should try to build and enforce social norms that help growth as programmers and minimize conflict. Fortunately these goals aren't inimical; in fact, the more contentious the discussion, the less learning gets done.

pepon 12y ago

I came here to say exactly that. I couldn't agree more with the guidelines and with your comment.

blrgeek 12y ago

Can we put these (or a shortened form) on every Show HN post automatically before the comment box? Something like: > Is your comment respectful & helpful? > Is it positive criticism? Please?

dang 12y ago
We've actually talked about that, but it feels a bit nannyish.