5 ms·

Bye Bye Linux (Ubuntu), Hi Again Windows

11 points by amrith 17y ago

dryicerx 17y ago
Unfortunately one of your problems is reliance on Microsoft Products and specific hardware even when you were switched to Linux, such as Office/Outlook and products such as the Dell Docking Station and Multi Function Printers who doesn't support any *nix, and Cisco VPN (look in to vpnc). That's like comparing using Windows and trying to get KOffice and Cygwin working on Windows and benchmarking so. You pick a platform, and start using the tools associated natively with it. Linux isn't a good suite for everyone, and definitely not in this case.
- branden 17y ago
  Yeah, the VPN paragraph had me laughing. Surely one of those 14 blogs should've mentioned "sudo apt-get install network-manager-vpnc". VPN is a breeze on Ubuntu.
  - amrith 17y ago
    Yes, I saw that but it doesn’t work too well if you can’t use Network Manager to begin with. See bug 55434 that I reported in december about this. https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/55434 https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/55434 I had to switch to WiCD which did allow me to do WiFi at work. Now, it may be possible that I could use network-manager-vpnc with WiCD but I couldn’t find a way to do that.
    - branden 17y ago
      Ok, that's legitimate. But it sounds like your complaint is really with network manager, not Ubuntu's VPN support. And hey, at least you have a place to report bugs :)
      - amrith 17y ago
        There, my friend, you have a point! Yes, my grouse is with Network Manager but that is really a distinction without a difference. I have a problem with Ubuntu by extension.
- tvon 17y ago
  > Linux isn't a good suite for everyone I believe this was his point, that Linux is not ready for mainstream use.
  - khill 17y ago
    "Not good for everyone" doesn't mean "Not ready for mainstream use". Windows is not good for me but it's apparently mainstream.
DanielStraight 17y ago
Good stuff, but there is something a lot of people don't consider (and the author didn't here either). Most "benchmarks" people use to judge Linux are based on experience with Windows, yet almost no one ever judges Windows based on Linux. Linux makes much more of an effort to meet Windows benchmarks than vice versa. Linux is (mostly) secure by design. How does Windows stack up? Linux has a powerful command line interface which can do almost anything that can physically be done on a Linux system. Linux comes equipped with programming support (I think a C compiler should be considered a standard part of ANY system). Linux (generally) has resizable dialog boxes. The Windows environment variables dialog box is downright evil. Linux allows for a great deal more system and desktop customization. If you get used to running Linux, you can pretty much dual-boot or straight up change your OS on a whim (especially given the available of Gnome and KDE). Also, you have something to change to. If you decide you get sick of Windows, it's a much bigger deal to change OS. Windows to Linux is nothing like Ubuntu to Arch. Installing and running a development/test web server on a Linux machine is almost trivial. I would say in general where Linux excels, it excels far more than Windows does where Windows excels. Windows may be a little better in some areas, but where Linux is better, it's so many lightyears ahead that Windows isn't even in view anymore (think virus protection for example).
- Nosferax 17y ago
  The command line really is hard to make up for, without a lot of hassle, that is. When I'm running windows it's the thing I miss the most. Other than that, it sucks that Firefox is not nearly as polished under Linux as it is under Windows. Same goes for adobe's flash player.
  - th0ma5 17y ago
    cygwin and putty help with making windows bearable again, and the new kernel patches and video driver updates make flash pretty darn good
  - SamAtt 17y ago
    Have you tried Powershell? I haven't found much I can't do with it (though I admittedly have limited Linux experience)
Tichy 17y ago
Actually the external screen stuff worked quite well since one or two releases ago. At least for me. They added nice controls for it. Printer - oh well, just have to buy the right one, I guess. Docking station: very exotic use case.
- tvon 17y ago
  > Docking station: very exotic use case. It's only exotic to Linux users.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    With modern notebooks I have never seen the benefit. What does the docking station add?
    - RyanMcGreal 17y ago
      I have an Acer Aspire One with Jaunty on it. When I want an external monitor, I plug in a monitor; when I want an external keyboard, I plug in a keyboard; and so on. The only benefit I can see to a docking station would be that you only have to plug in one thing instead of, like, three things. Incidentally, the only problem I have had setting up and running Ubuntu on the netbook was that the default wifi driver is a bit flaky. I switched to madwifi-hal and did a bit of set-up as per: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne#line-207 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne#line-207 Now it works fine.
    - bmelton 17y ago
      Really? The way my desk area is set up is I guess a vastly different use case from yours. My laptop is primarily mobile -- I take it to work, work from coffee shops, the couch, etc., but when I want to do something that I need need more of a desktop setting for (I can't do image editing on the couch, or without a mouse, or without a large screen usually) I just plug the laptop into the docking station. The docking station is connected to an external hard drive for backups, speakers for sound, external monitor, keyboard, mouse, power cable, Line 6 Pod XT guitar pedal and mixing board. It allows me the flexibility of having a convenient desktop setup while still maintaining the portability I bought a laptop for. I'm surprised more people don't use it, as it seems like the edge case here instead of the norm.
old-gregg 17y ago
He is complaining about docking a Dell. Can anyone here confirm that latest Ubuntu works with latest Dell Latitudes and their docking stations? I just placed an order on one of them and I'm getting nervous. Google searches didn't reveal any potential problems. My specs: Latitude E6400, NVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M, Intel® WiFi Link 5300 802.11a/g/n Draft Mini Card, E-Port, dock for charging, digital video, and USB / eSATA port support
ggchappell 17y ago
This is a nice article. He makes some good points. I'm generally leaning Linux-ward these days, but I really appreciate what he says about laptops. A few notes: - On the initial installation, CD + 20 minutes for Linux, CD + 2 hrs for Windows, sounds about right to me. But another point to make is that on Ubuntu, another 20 minutes, maybe an hour at most, gets me a fully loaded system, while on Windows I'm swapping CDs for days. Of course, I don't have to do that Cisco VPN stuff he complains about. - An issue that he doesn't touch on at all is the general "scriptability" of the system. I've found that under Linux, it is usually much easier to write a little script to automate some task, than it is under Windows. Of course, this matters not at all to some people. - Laptops, external displays, etc.: Definitely. If I were running the Ubuntu project, I'd put everything else on essential-maintenance-only status, and get it working right on a laptop as soon as possible.
wglb 17y ago
Could do without the attitude, but would be interested to see the author of the blog try a mac for a bit and compare.
- windsurfer 17y ago
  Yeah good luck with the docking station and installing on his computer.
  - irinotecan 17y ago
    MacBooks have docking stations?
    - windsurfer 17y ago
      I guess that's a show-stopping problem for this guy, eh?
ajross 17y ago
Complaints are: 1. Hard to set up printing to complicated printers. 2. Laptop docking station doesn't work. Yeah, hardware compatibility is indeed a perenial problem with linux distros. The reason is that it's not something the OS vendor can solve. The truth is that Microsoft doesn't make this stuff work, HP and Dell do. They're the ones who get the support calls when stuff fails, so they're the ones with an incentive to make the integration work right. The linux world has no equivalent player (in the consumer space -- there certainly is on servers, where vendors care deeply about linux support). 3. Distros don't update Firefox when new releases come out. I think this is fair. There are arguments to be made either way, but it's true that a windows user has a much easier time upgrading to new versions of popular software at release time than linux folks do, where you generally need to wait 0-6 months for the new Ubuntu. I think some kind of answer for the user who wants to download someting new Right Now would be a good thing. 4. External monitor support sucks in X.org. Absolutely true, but it's improving rapidly.
- ZeroGravitas 17y ago
  3 I don't get. Ubuntu has both Firefox 3.0 and 3.5 available to choose in a simple list of software. His problem seems to be that he doesn't like the Firefox codename which is hardly the end of the world.
  - amrith 17y ago
    Not really. When I wrote this post, 3.5 was not an available UPGRADE for 3.0. You end up with both 3.0 and 3.5 on your system, and still do. I have no issue with the name. The issue with many Linux bigots is that they think the rest of the world is somehow stupid and not as smart as they are, as evidenced by some of the other comments on this trail. They seem to believe that the things that the rest of the world wants (which they see as unimportant) are in fact worthless (like the comment about docking stations).
windsurfer 17y ago
Just a note for the upcoming October release of Ubuntu: I've been trying the alphas, and in version 2 all my external display woes have gone away. It's as easy as setting up external displays in windows.
zokier 17y ago
Its a sad thing that while most of linux kernel code is drivers, its hardware support is still flaky in many places :(
mcantor 17y ago
I'm a little depressed that external monitor support is still so poor. The last time I tried it was 2 years ago back in college, and it took me weeks of Googling, reconfiguring and reinstalling to get it to just barely work. Seems like it has barely moved since then... what a shame for something so obvious and vital to many laptop users! Reminds me of the xkcd comic. (http://xkcd.com/619 http://xkcd.com/619)
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
doki_pen 17y ago
With the default xorg.conf, usually you just plug in your second monitor and type 'startx -- :1' for your presentations... it is annoything that if I'm working on the train (one screen) and I get to work, I have to start a new X session. I think xrandr solves this issue but it's not ready for me yet.

11 points by amrith 17y ago

Unfortunately one of your problems is reliance on Microsoft Products and specific hardware even when you were switched to Linux, such as Office/Outlook and products such as the Dell Docking Station and Multi Function Printers who doesn't support any *nix, and Cisco VPN (look in to vpnc). That's like comparing using Windows and trying to get KOffice and Cygwin working on Windows and benchmarking so. You pick a platform, and start using the tools associated natively with it. Linux isn't a good suite for everyone, and definitely not in this case.

branden 17y ago
Yeah, the VPN paragraph had me laughing. Surely one of those 14 blogs should've mentioned "sudo apt-get install network-manager-vpnc". VPN is a breeze on Ubuntu.
- amrith 17y ago
  Yes, I saw that but it doesn’t work too well if you can’t use Network Manager to begin with. See bug 55434 that I reported in december about this. https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/55434 https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/55434 I had to switch to WiCD which did allow me to do WiFi at work. Now, it may be possible that I could use network-manager-vpnc with WiCD but I couldn’t find a way to do that.
  - branden 17y ago
    Ok, that's legitimate. But it sounds like your complaint is really with network manager, not Ubuntu's VPN support. And hey, at least you have a place to report bugs :)
    - amrith 17y ago
      There, my friend, you have a point! Yes, my grouse is with Network Manager but that is really a distinction without a difference. I have a problem with Ubuntu by extension.
tvon 17y ago
> Linux isn't a good suite for everyone I believe this was his point, that Linux is not ready for mainstream use.
- khill 17y ago
  "Not good for everyone" doesn't mean "Not ready for mainstream use". Windows is not good for me but it's apparently mainstream.

DanielStraight 17y ago

Good stuff, but there is something a lot of people don't consider (and the author didn't here either). Most "benchmarks" people use to judge Linux are based on experience with Windows, yet almost no one ever judges Windows based on Linux. Linux makes much more of an effort to meet Windows benchmarks than vice versa. Linux is (mostly) secure by design. How does Windows stack up? Linux has a powerful command line interface which can do almost anything that can physically be done on a Linux system. Linux comes equipped with programming support (I think a C compiler should be considered a standard part of ANY system). Linux (generally) has resizable dialog boxes. The Windows environment variables dialog box is downright evil. Linux allows for a great deal more system and desktop customization. If you get used to running Linux, you can pretty much dual-boot or straight up change your OS on a whim (especially given the available of Gnome and KDE). Also, you have something to change to. If you decide you get sick of Windows, it's a much bigger deal to change OS. Windows to Linux is nothing like Ubuntu to Arch. Installing and running a development/test web server on a Linux machine is almost trivial. I would say in general where Linux excels, it excels far more than Windows does where Windows excels. Windows may be a little better in some areas, but where Linux is better, it's so many lightyears ahead that Windows isn't even in view anymore (think virus protection for example).

Nosferax 17y ago
The command line really is hard to make up for, without a lot of hassle, that is. When I'm running windows it's the thing I miss the most. Other than that, it sucks that Firefox is not nearly as polished under Linux as it is under Windows. Same goes for adobe's flash player.
- th0ma5 17y ago
  cygwin and putty help with making windows bearable again, and the new kernel patches and video driver updates make flash pretty darn good
- SamAtt 17y ago
  Have you tried Powershell? I haven't found much I can't do with it (though I admittedly have limited Linux experience)

Tichy 17y ago

Actually the external screen stuff worked quite well since one or two releases ago. At least for me. They added nice controls for it. Printer - oh well, just have to buy the right one, I guess. Docking station: very exotic use case.

tvon 17y ago
> Docking station: very exotic use case. It's only exotic to Linux users.
- Tichy 17y ago
  With modern notebooks I have never seen the benefit. What does the docking station add?
  - RyanMcGreal 17y ago
    I have an Acer Aspire One with Jaunty on it. When I want an external monitor, I plug in a monitor; when I want an external keyboard, I plug in a keyboard; and so on. The only benefit I can see to a docking station would be that you only have to plug in one thing instead of, like, three things. Incidentally, the only problem I have had setting up and running Ubuntu on the netbook was that the default wifi driver is a bit flaky. I switched to madwifi-hal and did a bit of set-up as per: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne#line-207 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne#line-207 Now it works fine.
  - bmelton 17y ago
    Really? The way my desk area is set up is I guess a vastly different use case from yours. My laptop is primarily mobile -- I take it to work, work from coffee shops, the couch, etc., but when I want to do something that I need need more of a desktop setting for (I can't do image editing on the couch, or without a mouse, or without a large screen usually) I just plug the laptop into the docking station. The docking station is connected to an external hard drive for backups, speakers for sound, external monitor, keyboard, mouse, power cable, Line 6 Pod XT guitar pedal and mixing board. It allows me the flexibility of having a convenient desktop setup while still maintaining the portability I bought a laptop for. I'm surprised more people don't use it, as it seems like the edge case here instead of the norm.

old-gregg 17y ago

He is complaining about docking a Dell. Can anyone here confirm that latest Ubuntu works with latest Dell Latitudes and their docking stations? I just placed an order on one of them and I'm getting nervous. Google searches didn't reveal any potential problems. My specs: Latitude E6400, NVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M, Intel® WiFi Link 5300 802.11a/g/n Draft Mini Card, E-Port, dock for charging, digital video, and USB / eSATA port support

ggchappell 17y ago

This is a nice article. He makes some good points. I'm generally leaning Linux-ward these days, but I really appreciate what he says about laptops. A few notes: - On the initial installation, CD + 20 minutes for Linux, CD + 2 hrs for Windows, sounds about right to me. But another point to make is that on Ubuntu, another 20 minutes, maybe an hour at most, gets me a fully loaded system, while on Windows I'm swapping CDs for days. Of course, I don't have to do that Cisco VPN stuff he complains about. - An issue that he doesn't touch on at all is the general "scriptability" of the system. I've found that under Linux, it is usually much easier to write a little script to automate some task, than it is under Windows. Of course, this matters not at all to some people. - Laptops, external displays, etc.: Definitely. If I were running the Ubuntu project, I'd put everything else on essential-maintenance-only status, and get it working right on a laptop as soon as possible.

wglb 17y ago

Could do without the attitude, but would be interested to see the author of the blog try a mac for a bit and compare.

windsurfer 17y ago
Yeah good luck with the docking station and installing on his computer.
- irinotecan 17y ago
  MacBooks have docking stations?
  - windsurfer 17y ago
    I guess that's a show-stopping problem for this guy, eh?

ajross 17y ago

Complaints are: 1. Hard to set up printing to complicated printers. 2. Laptop docking station doesn't work. Yeah, hardware compatibility is indeed a perenial problem with linux distros. The reason is that it's not something the OS vendor can solve. The truth is that Microsoft doesn't make this stuff work, HP and Dell do. They're the ones who get the support calls when stuff fails, so they're the ones with an incentive to make the integration work right. The linux world has no equivalent player (in the consumer space -- there certainly is on servers, where vendors care deeply about linux support). 3. Distros don't update Firefox when new releases come out. I think this is fair. There are arguments to be made either way, but it's true that a windows user has a much easier time upgrading to new versions of popular software at release time than linux folks do, where you generally need to wait 0-6 months for the new Ubuntu. I think some kind of answer for the user who wants to download someting new Right Now would be a good thing. 4. External monitor support sucks in X.org. Absolutely true, but it's improving rapidly.

ZeroGravitas 17y ago
3 I don't get. Ubuntu has both Firefox 3.0 and 3.5 available to choose in a simple list of software. His problem seems to be that he doesn't like the Firefox codename which is hardly the end of the world.
- amrith 17y ago
  Not really. When I wrote this post, 3.5 was not an available UPGRADE for 3.0. You end up with both 3.0 and 3.5 on your system, and still do. I have no issue with the name. The issue with many Linux bigots is that they think the rest of the world is somehow stupid and not as smart as they are, as evidenced by some of the other comments on this trail. They seem to believe that the things that the rest of the world wants (which they see as unimportant) are in fact worthless (like the comment about docking stations).

windsurfer 17y ago

Just a note for the upcoming October release of Ubuntu: I've been trying the alphas, and in version 2 all my external display woes have gone away. It's as easy as setting up external displays in windows.

zokier 17y ago

Its a sad thing that while most of linux kernel code is drivers, its hardware support is still flaky in many places :(

mcantor 17y ago

I'm a little depressed that external monitor support is still so poor. The last time I tried it was 2 years ago back in college, and it took me weeks of Googling, reconfiguring and reinstalling to get it to just barely work. Seems like it has barely moved since then... what a shame for something so obvious and vital to many laptop users! Reminds me of the xkcd comic. (http://xkcd.com/619 http://xkcd.com/619)

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

doki_pen 17y ago

With the default xorg.conf, usually you just plug in your second monitor and type 'startx -- :1' for your presentations... it is annoything that if I'm working on the train (one screen) and I get to work, I have to start a new X session. I think xrandr solves this issue but it's not ready for me yet.