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Pay 1% more(or 3%-8% more if you have a cash back card and depending on where you bought your coins) to save them 2% and lose all consumer protections in the de
by sanswork 12y ago
Pay 1% more(or 3%-8% more if you have a cash back card and depending on where you bought your coins) to save them 2% and lose all consumer protections in the deal.
It's no wonder there is almost no consumer growth in the bitcoin world while new merchants are announced every other day.
- mrb 12y agoYou are wrong, there is tremendous consumer growth happening. The two biggest US processors (BitPay and Coinbase) release numbers every once in a while. One example: "Since [...] October, along with the integration with Shopify in November, [...] the transaction volume has tripled." Source: http://blog.bitpay.com/2013/12/11/bitpay-exceeds-100-000-000-in-bitcoin-transactions-processed.html http://blog.bitpay.com/2013/12/11/bitpay-exceeds-100-000-000...
- sanswork 12y agoWhere are you seeing it? Overstock the most regularly promoted name as a retailer has only seen dropping numbers since they started. Notice bitpay stopped reporting 7 months ago? Coinbase has also been called out on posting contradictory numbers on their blog posts in the past which lead to them deleting most of their posts related to numbers.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- user24 12y agoI'd like to see a source for your claim that "Overstock ... has only seen dropping numbers since they started." I think you're probably getting it from the FOX Business interview in May, but that's not really as cut-and-dried as you're making out. [1] http://www.coindesk.com/overstock-ceo-patrick-byrne-1-6m-bitcoin-sales/ http://www.coindesk.com/overstock-ceo-patrick-byrne-1-6m-bit...
- sanswork 12y agohttp://onbitcoin.com/2014/01/31/bitcoin-executives-testify-in-new-york-to-persuade-regulators-coinbase-circle-overstock/ http://onbitcoin.com/2014/01/31/bitcoin-executives-testify-i... http://www.coindesk.com/overstock-million-bitcoin-sales-future-projections/ http://www.coindesk.com/overstock-million-bitcoin-sales-futu... http://www.coindesk.com/overstock-ceo-patrick-byrne-1-6m-bitcoin-sales/ http://www.coindesk.com/overstock-ceo-patrick-byrne-1-6m-bit... Jan 1 - 170K Jan 2-29 - $15K/day average Next 36 days to March 4th they do $400K - $11K/day average Next 83 days to May 27th they do $600K - $7200/day average
- user24 12y agoThanks! Hmm. It is only to be expected that the initial spike would drop off. It'll be interesting to see if that downwards trend continues or not.
- mrb 12y agoOverstock is just one merchant, one data point. Not enough to draw a conclusion. On the other hand, BitPay represents 30k merchants. And they did not stop releasing numbers. They recently announced processing $1 million every single day. This is 3.3x their daily average of 2013. Source: http://www.pfhub.com/bitpay-processing-1-million-per-day-overstock-com-gets-1-6-million-in-bitcoin-payments-773/ http://www.pfhub.com/bitpay-processing-1-million-per-day-ove...
- sanswork 12y agoYour source is a link to a story which sources some random bitcoin news blog which sources...nothing but their own claim that they were told that. Every other news source references it or doesn't give a source for the claim. This is common in bitcoin reporting. One blog makes something up, misunderstands something, or makes a mistake and the rest report it as fact.
- mrb 12y agoThis milestone ($1M/day) was widely disseminated in a business wire 2 weeks before the newsbtc.com blog post: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-payments-pioneer-bitpay-raises-100000393.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-payments-pioneer-bitpa... Notice how it is burried in the announcement of the $30M funding round. This is probably why the fact was not picked up by more people.
- sanswork 12y agoI'll believe it when I see numbers for multiple days over multiple months. Both bitpay and coinbase have been caught in the past using spikes and holiday volume to make their overall volume look much higher than it is.
- mrb 12y agoBitPay processed $5k/day in May 2012 [3], $18k/day in Sep 2012 [3], $160k/day in March 2013 [1], $300k/day average through 2013 [2], and now $1.0M/day [4]. BitPay had 1k merchants in Sep 2012 [3], 10k by Sep 2013 [5], 30k by May 2014 [6]. BitPay raised $2M in May 2013 [7], and $30M in May 2014 [4]. They had a single office in Atlanta in 2012, now they have 8000 sq ft in Atlanta [8], plus offices in Amsterdam, San Francisco, New York City. BitPay had 7 employees in April 2013 [9], and 40 by May 2014 [8], and plans to have 100 by end of 2014 [8]. You can bury your head in the sand as much as you want, but their growth is obvious... Have you been to any Bitcoin conference? The number of new startups, flury of projects, funding rounds, etc, is mind-boggling. You belong to the super-minority who believes that "Bitcoin is seeing no consumer growth" (!) [1] http://www.maxkeiser.com/2013/04/bitpay-processes-5-million-in-march-eclipses-silk-road/ http://www.maxkeiser.com/2013/04/bitpay-processes-5-million-... [2] http://www.paymentssource.com/news/the-companies-signing-up-big-merchants-to-accept-bitcoin-3018108-1.html http://www.paymentssource.com/news/the-companies-signing-up-... [3] http://bitcoinmagazine.com/2298/bitpay-exceeds-1000-merchants-accepting-bitcoin/ http://bitcoinmagazine.com/2298/bitpay-exceeds-1000-merchant... [4] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-payments-pioneer-bitpay-raises-100000393.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-payments-pioneer-bitpa... [5] http://paymentweek.com/bitpay-reaches-10k-merchants-milestone/ http://paymentweek.com/bitpay-reaches-10k-merchants-mileston... [6] http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/04/merchant-spotlight-sendowl.html http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/04/merchant-spotlight-sendowl... [7] http://bitcoinmagazine.com/4626/bitpay-raises-2-million-led-by-founders-fund/ http://bitcoinmagazine.com/4626/bitpay-raises-2-million-led-... [8] http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/21/bitpay-s-office-grand-opening-celebration.html http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/21/bitpay-s-office-grand-open... [9] http://blog.bitpay.com/2013/04/22/bitpay-expands-staff-to-seven-full-time-employees.html http://blog.bitpay.com/2013/04/22/bitpay-expands-staff-to-se...
- aquadrop 12y agohttps://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions I don't see any growth. Also, 70k transactions/day - one average shopping mall.
- pwim 12y agoWow, that's amazingly low. Especially because I'm guessing most of these transactions are just mixing services. I wonder how much represent actual transfers of wealth between individuals? I would guess less than 1K per day, which would make it incredibly low compared to all the hype bitcoin has got.
- macNchz 12y agoIndeed. In searching around to find something to compare these numbers with, I found that Walmart alone processed 10 million register transactions in 4 hours on Black Friday in 2012[1]. Even if all 70k bitcoin transactions every day were actual purchases (rather than shifting money around), it'd take 5 months to do what Walmart did in 4 hours. 1. http://news.walmart.com/news-archive/2012/11/23/walmart-us-reports-best-ever-black-friday-events http://news.walmart.com/news-archive/2012/11/23/walmart-us-r...
- moe 12y agoIt has grown by a factor of 4 in the past two years (visible when you switch to the 2 year or 'all time' scale).
- lomocotive 12y agohttps://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address= https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-... this looks like a typical exponential curve to me
- jdong 12y agoThat looks like the price spiking and lots of trades happening, or alternatively a major individual player moving their coins around. It definitely says nothing about consumer adoption.
- comboy 12y agoIt's hard to accurately measure adoption level mostly because of the decentralised nature of Bitcoin, but looking at the transaction volume is a really bad approach. One individual sending money back and forth can generate tremendous volume (similarly with exchange moving their funds between hot wallet and cold storage). Same goes for transactions count (if you are moving big enough funds you don't have to pay fee), plus there are things like satoshidice or reddit tip bot that tend to move towards off-blockchain transactions now.
- kalleboo 12y ago> One individual sending money back and forth can generate tremendous volume Which is what the "days destroyed" measurement looks to compensate for https://blockchain.info/charts/bitcoin-days-destroyed https://blockchain.info/charts/bitcoin-days-destroyed https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Days_Destroyed https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Days_Destroyed
- kaonashi 12y agoTransaction volume and consumer growth aren't even close to the same thing.
- mrb 12y agoYes it is! The numbers I posted ($1M/day today, up from $300k/day in 2013) are transactions made on BitPay's platform for services and goods sold by BitPay's merchants, 99% of which are B2C companies (see https://bitpay.com/directory https://bitpay.com/directory). Real stuff sold to real customers, in bitcoins. I think you are confused and thought I was talking about transaction volume on the Bitcoin p2p network.
- asdfaoeu 12y agoTrue there's no advantage to paying with bitcoin currently and most people are just using it for the novelty value. But enough growth and merchants will just have to offer discounts with bitcoin purchases to stay competitive.
- StavrosK 12y agoIsn't that illegal?
- sanswork 12y agoCredit card companies use to dictate that you couldn't charge different prices for them but they were sued and lost so now you can.
- digitalsushi 12y agoThe Dodd-Frank act, 2010, with the Durbin Amendment, made it so that vendors could impose a restriction on credit card purchases up to 10 dollars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd%E2%80%93Frank_Wall_Street_Reform_and_Consumer_Protection_Act#cite_note-21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd%E2%80%93Frank_Wall_Street_...
- yebyen 12y agoCitation please. I've been charged extra at my favorite Chinese restaurant for using a card, so it's not that I don't believe you, but I would really like to know the relevant decision. (Upvoted)
- belandrew 12y agoVisa and Mastercard settled so there was no decision needed. http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/press_releases/2010/262867.htm http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/press_releases/2010/262867... I believe American Express settled later.
- mrb 12y agoIf the numerous and massive data breaches, and subsequent credit card theft and fraud events of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that yes paying in bitcoins has one fundamental advantage: you are never handing the store your full billing info which can be stolen and reused by fraudsters. Now, Bitcoin also has its own security challenges (eg. how to secure a wallet), but there are solutions (hardware wallets) making it a fundamentally more secure way of transacting online.
- sfjailbird 12y ago> lose all consumer protections Nonsense. Consumer protection laws apply no matter the payment method.
- Nursie 12y agoNot true in all places. In the UK part of your protection is the fact that there is a third party involved (your credit card issuer) who has a variety of responsibilities to the consumer over and above the responsibilities of the retailer. In practice this means you get better protection as the money can be taken back from the retailer by a third party with a big stick.
- sfjailbird 12y agoCredit card chargebacks have nothing to do with consumer protection laws. It is just a feature of the credit card payment system (good or bad, depending on point of view).
- Nursie 12y agoFalse. Here in the UK the credit card company, as a party to an incurred debt, has a legal responsibility to the consumer that encompasses various things like product quality and returns/refunds. If the retailer does not live up to their responsibilities then the CC provider has a legal responsibility to return the money. This is under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.
- sfjailbird 12y agoYou get no additional protections regarding quality/returns/refunds when paying by credit card, that you wouldn't have if paying by bitcoin, or cash. You get the option of pulling the payment back unilaterally, but this is subject to those same consumer protection laws, so the merchant can still come after you if you do so without a valid reason as stipulated by the law.
- 12y ago
- user24 12y ago> almost no consumer growth in the bitcoin world There are quite a few metrics on http://www.bitcoinpulse.com/ http://www.bitcoinpulse.com/ that seem to indicate otherwise.
- sanswork 12y agoWhich ones? The number of accounts on a website? The number of transactions is flat as is the transaction volume.
- user24 12y agoI was going by the number of wallets & some of the repo stats. You're right though, it's not gaining consumer adoption, but it is gaining merchant, infrastructure and developer interest.
- sanswork 12y agoYup, definitely gaining merchant adoption(its awesome for merchants) and developer interest(its really interesting technology).
- user24 12y agoI think a lot of the merchant adoption is driven more by marketing than anything; newegg will get a spike of sales from enthusiastic bitcoiners because of this.
- oleganza 12y agoPaying in Bitcoin makes a lot of sense: 1) You don't have to provide private info like CC number. 2) If you bought bitcoins at X and now they are valued at 10X you may effectively enjoy 90% discount on all purchases. All these mythical user-protecting chargebacks are almost never used by consumers for refunds (companies who care about brand help them settling refunds) and almost always for the cases when you CC details got stolen and used by someone else. Of course, bitcoin payments do not leak your private keys, so the entire class of problems goes away.
- sanswork 12y ago1) You're ordering something to be delivered you have to provide the same info. 2) True, but now once you've spent them does it make sense to buy them back and do it again? Because most companies are afraid of chargebacks and will take steps to avoid them. Bitcoin payments don't but any minor lapse in personal computer security likely will.
- pathy 12y agoFor 2), surely you would have to pay capital gains tax on the increase in value. To be fully compliant with the law, it may be hard to enforce in reality.
- runeks 12y agoDepends on your country of residence. In the US, I believe this is the case, in Denmark, this isn't the case (http://taxinsights.ey.com/archive/archive-news/danish-assessment-board-bitcoin-currency-fluctuations-taxable-details.aspx http://taxinsights.ey.com/archive/archive-news/danish-assess...).
- pathy 12y agoOf course. It does vary on a country to country basis. I believe most countries consider BTC an asset rather than a currency, thus incurring the capital gains tax. Sweden for example does, and I believe Norway as well. Funny that, Scandinavian countries usually have similar legislation. ( http://blog.btcx.se/bitcoin-nytt/dags-att-deklarera-bitcoin-2014/ http://blog.btcx.se/bitcoin-nytt/dags-att-deklarera-bitcoin-... )
- soup10 12y agoBitcoin is still mostly a speculative vehicle. 9/10 links about bitcoin are not real news and are just propped up by people with a stake in it. Nobody else cares.
- aianus 12y agoTo be honest, for some merchants (Amazon) I really don't need my credit card protections and I'd rather get the 2% back.
- xur17 12y agoI wonder this too - I rarely use cash right now, because I get: 1) Cashback (1-3%) 2) Chargebacks if needed by using a credit card. Bitcoins are basically like cash in my mind - very easy to move around, but no protections in case of it being stolen, and no cashback. I think Bitcoin is very neat technology, and has some useful features (transferring money between people quickly and easily with basically no fees), but I fail to see the incentive for me to use it to replace my credit card. The business receiving it receives all of the benefits. If stores passed the savings onto the consumer with 2 or 3% cashback, I could potentially see people using it. Especially if this was returned as points or something, similar to how it's treated for credit cards.
- coldpie 12y agoPlease consider using cash at small and local businesses when possible. You pay the same amount either way, and the extra 2-3% goes to the local business instead of to Visa. Additionally, I've been to one or two stores that will actually give a small discount on cash purchases. I hope that trend continues.
- xur17 12y agoI do tend to somewhat favor cash when using food trucks, and other small stores - I figure it's a little faster than waiting for them to fiddle with their phone, and it saves them a little bit of money.
- jusben1369 12y agoYeah but the other night I stopped at a Mexican food truck and was without cash. They didn't have Square or anything. I drove 3 blocks to the ATM only to buy something next to the ATM vs go back. So for my family of 4 I put $50 into one store vs the food truck. So a $50 lost sale is a lot of 2-3% to make up by not accepting cards at all.
- zapdrive 12y agoIt's not like they were selling digital copies of something, that they lost all of it. It all depends upon how much is their margin? Maybe they go home every night after selling all their stock. How long did they have to wait to sell that $50 worth of stock that you didn't buy? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? Were those 10 minutes worth $1.50 they saved on fees?
- walden42 12y agoI don't need consumer protection at Newegg. I don't know anyone that's ever had an issue with them.
- NSEDhom 12y agoAgreed. I've had to return things, replace damaged shipments, etc. Newegg has always been extremely helpful. I guess dishonest people can't imagine a scenario where merchants behave that way to, I don't know, retain customers instead of being forced to because their payments are being held hostage.
- Nursie 12y ago>> I guess dishonest people can't imagine a scenario where merchants behave that way to, I don't know, retain customers instead of being forced to because their payments are being held hostage. There are literally thousands of years of history to look at that will show you how naive and ridiculous this view is. Try doing a quick web search on "Caveat Emptor". And for more recent examples, well try reading anything much about the last few years of bitcoin.
- Nursie 12y agoLOL. Until one day it all goes wrong, or management change and don't care about service so much. And that also acts as a barrier for new entrants into the market, stifling competition. When you have to just trust that a new market entrant won't run off with your cash, why would you ever risk it? There's a hell of a lot that consumer protections and existing payment instruments give us.
- wyager 12y ago>lose all consumer protections in the deal. Well I don't care about the ability to do chargebacks from newegg, and I care a lot about the ability to not get my financials stolen by hackers, so the "consumer protection" Bitcoin offers here looks pretty good to me.
- awt 12y agoYou should try paying for something with BTC once, just for fun.
- sanswork 12y agoI have. I've been interested in bitcoin for years now. But my interest doesn't translate to me thinking it will be successful as a consumer tool.