16 ms·

Sleep as a Competitive Advantage

480 points by robg 12y ago

kordless 12y ago
I'm a big fan of naps. I take one around 2PM or so, usually for about 15-20 minutes.
- acgourley 12y ago
  Same here, although it seems quite personal in terms of benefits and ability to execute.
- johnward 12y ago
  I can never take short naps. I always end up wanting to sleep the rest of the day.
  - njoglekar 12y ago
    Is the problem waking up or a groggy feeling the rest of the day?
    - johnward 12y ago
      Usually waking up I think. I don't usually nap but I took a nap yesterday that probably turned into 3 hours of sleep. When I woke up I wanted to go to bed but once I got up and moving I felt fine.
      - njoglekar 12y ago
        That's actually really common. In fact I'm making a product / wearable to help with that. I'll do a Show HN soon :).
  - simonh 12y ago
    Here's a few tricks I learned a few years ago. 1. I never nap for more than 20 minutes. If my body goes into a deeper level of sleep or relaxation, I get up feeling groggy and disoriented. 2. Properly nap. Force yourself not to think about work. Focus on other things such as the weight of your body sinking into the chair/couch, the distant sound of traffic, etc. 3. Towards the end of the nap, very slowly and deliberately count up to 20, with a maybe 2 or 3 long slow breaths between counts. Completely relax during this count, but on the count of 20 immediately, instantly get up and go about your business. Know that this is what you are going to do, but don't let your body tense up or in any way get ready for it. Works for me like a charm. Just psychologically knowing I'm going to do this somehow prepares me for it at a deep level.
    - tnorthcutt 12y ago
      Towards the end of the nap, very slowly and deliberately count up to 20 How do you do this while you are asleep? Or do you mean do this after you wake up?
      - tripzilch 12y ago
        The latter. I read about this elsewhere (except it was counting down from 10, but the details don't matter). It's psychologically priming yourself, "I'm going to get UP at the last count!". Part of it is about how it's easier to make such decisions when it's not right now, but somewhere in the future. The second part is that when the count is up, you actually do it without thinking. I tried it a couple of times and it does seem to help with the "uggh no just one more minute" false reasoning. Haven't managed to turn it into a habit though.
    - bentcorner 12y ago
      > 1. I never nap for more than 20 minutes. If my body goes into a deeper level of sleep or relaxation, I get up feeling groggy and disoriented. > 2. Properly nap. Force yourself not to think about work. Focus on other things such as the weight of your body sinking into the chair/couch, the distant sound of traffic, etc. I think these are the most important, and they should be considered together. Set a timer for 15 minutes, and lie down. Even if you don't fall asleep for those 15 minutes (I probably end up in deep sleep for 5-10 minutes), get up when your alarm goes off. Even closing your eyes for 15 minutes can be beneficial.
  - jqm 12y ago
    I used to be exactly the same way....particularly my late teens and twenties where I would sleep half the day if I tried to take a nap. Sometime around 40 that changed. I take a nap almost every day, (sometimes 2, esp if doing something mentally taxing...I can do this since I work from home), but it's been years since I have been able to take a nap exceeding 20 minutes. I simply wake up, no alarm or stimuli needed. Even if I was up all night the night before. Sometimes, (like on Sunday afternoon), it's annoying. I would like to be able to enjoy a long nap again occasionally. I've wondered about this, and would love a solid physiological explanation.
    - johnward 12y ago
      I'm 28 so maybe it will change as I continue to age. I used to be able to sleep until 3pm if I really wanted too(assuming I had no alarm clock to wake me up to do something productive). Now I naturally wake up around 7am-9am no matter how late I stay up.
  - rahimnathwani 12y ago
    Have a coffee just before
  - rahimnathwani 12y ago
    Have a cup of coffee just before you take a nap. The caffeine will kick in at around the same time your 20-min alarm goes off.
    - tripzilch 12y ago
      Caffeine doesn't actually work like that. It's not a timed on/off switch. Like most drugs it'll gradually ramp up in effect, stay at max for a while and then taper off again. So if it's "kicked in" when the 20 min alarm goes off that means the last 5 min of that 20 will have been restless because the caffeine was already working. Caffeine is the great antagonist of sleep quality anyway. Just drop it for a month, see how that feels. Then see how much it fucks up your sleeping quality as you take even two cups of strong coffee (which is great fun because the caffeine will actually work full power, it's amazing, but your sleep after that night will suffer). This "coffee power nap" thing is a very nice story, but it's based on nothing. People that have success with it are finding the benefits of having a nap despite their caffeine usage.
      - rahimnathwani 12y ago
        You may be right. I read that tip somewhere a few years ago, and it worked the times I tried it. It could have been the placebo effect or just coincidence, and I didn't try napping without it.
- CmonDev 12y ago
  It's not about being a fan or not, it's about a possibility of doing this in a typical office.
  - cylinder 12y ago
    Offices are lagging so far behind. We need bike storage, shower rooms, nap rooms, lots of natural light, open rooms, quiet rooms, better snacks and drinks...
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      My wife's office has bike storage, in a building built in the 1920s.
- eli 12y ago
  I'm jealous. It typically takes me an hour to fall asleep.
  - matwood 12y ago
    I also take a long time to fall asleep, but a nap does not have to mean full sleep. Just laying there for 20 minutes with your eyes closed is often just as effective.
    - kordless 12y ago
      That's absolutely true. Also, practice makes perfect!
jusben1369 12y ago
It was explained to me that a small % of people can get by with less than 8 hours sleep. Those people then often move to the top of the org chart either as founders or management in larger companies. Perhaps unsurprisingly, given their lack of need for sleep, they're not big believers in the value of sleep and napping. That's why you'll see these articles every 3 - 6 months and nothing will really change.
- adocracy 12y ago
  See my comment above - I think even "low sleepers" recognize the value of sleep for clear thinking and emotional balance. I totally value napping.
blrgeek 12y ago
Naps save me every time. Just when my work starts flagging and quality starts dropping, a 20min nap makes me feel almost as fresh as I am coming into the office in the morning. Most others at work feel awkward about taking naps - even with me evangelising naps :o)
- nacnud 12y ago
  Where do you nap? Does your office provide a suitable place?
  - CmonDev 12y ago
    Most under-appreciated killer hiring feature.
    - tdoggette 12y ago
      I usually nap under the pool table that no one uses.
  - mrexroad 12y ago
    i used to nap under my cubicle desk... w/ the geometry of my cube, no one could see me even if they poked their head in. doesn't work w/ standing desks in open layouts :( now i often go to car.
  - blrgeek 12y ago
    On my chair/desk. I reduce the chair's height so I'm not bending over too much, and put my head on my arms on the table.
- bentcorner 12y ago
  I have to admit, I'd feel awkward taking naps in my office. What I usually do is go to my car in the parking garage and nap there. It works wonders; I recognize that the 15 min that I lose to the nap would have been lost to my brain being a foggy mess, so the nap is a net gain.
rayiner 12y ago
The key takeaway is this: > The research is overwhelming that the vast majority of us require seven to eight hours of sleep to feel fully rested, and only a small percentage require less than seven. I'm sometimes envious of people I meet that can function well with little sleep, but I resign myself to the fact that I wasn't dealt that particular card. You can't compete with those folks by simply trying to ape their habits.
- rmc 12y ago
  "But I'm special!"
- viraptor 12y ago
  > Most of us have forgotten what it really feels like to be awake.” This may be one part of it. Some time ago, I'd definitely tell you I'm fine with little sleep. You can do it if you sleep very little every night. It's quite easy to adapt to, for example during university exam times But then after some years you realise you're not actually fine. You just don't remember how different is it to sleep longer. I'm still fighting with myself now to sleep for a reasonable time to reverse the old habit. I did tell people I'm fine with little sleep before. I will happily tell them now that I was lying - just didn't know it at the time.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    In grad school, I made it a point to cut-off my studying to get a consistent 7-9 hours of sleep in the days leading up to each exam. It worked enormously better for me than my sleep-deprived cram sessions in undergrad, and I think some of my classmates suffered for prioritizing taking another pass over the material instead of being well-rested.
    - vanderZwan 12y ago
      Considering the brain needs to sleep to fixate memories, your approach is better. Of course, assuming you can fall asleep - if you can't because you feel you haven't studied enough...
elwell 12y ago
> Most of us have forgotten what it really feels like to be awake. Reminded me of this relevant TED Talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/jessa_gamble_how_to_sleep http://www.ted.com/talks/jessa_gamble_how_to_sleep
webwielder 12y ago
Too bad the body is often pretty lousy at honoring requests for quality sleep even when we make the time.
- general_failure 12y ago
  Yeah, I found that I need to train my body to sleep. If I go for a week or two with little sleep, the body seems to readjust to the pattern and refuses to sleep more.
  - jusben1369 12y ago
    Did you read the article though? You may not be sleeping due to your training it but you're at a competitive disadvantage to your peers.
    - aninhumer 12y ago
      I don't think general_failure was saying it was a good thing, just that once they're on a short sleep schedule, they find it difficult to get more than that even when they try.
- adestefan 12y ago
  The first step is to kick a caffeine habit if you have one. That means no coffee, no tea, no caffeinated soda.
  - marvin 12y ago
    I have for most of my life not been drinking caffeine at all, and I'm never able to sleep whenever I decide to, apart from in the evening. So this is not a pancaea for everyone.
  - saraid216 12y ago
    Is there a second step...?
jonathanjaeger 12y ago
I would much rather have less sleep + a 15-20 minute nap in the evening than no nap and an extra 45 minutes sleep at night. Luckily at 7pm it's not hard to take a power nap at the office in the conference room on a bean bag chair. I wish most offices made it easier for people to take naps as it's proven productivity would rise.
- TylerE 12y ago
  I would much rather not be in the office at 7PM.
deleted 12y ago
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autokad 12y ago
i find meditation/naps more powerful. getting into the sleep stage totally upsets cycles, etc. at least thats how it is for me
bgitarts 12y ago
Has anyone tried polyphasic sleep cycles as a way to get less sleep without losing cognitive function?
- bryanlarsen 12y ago
  Yes, I tried it for about 3 months 8 years ago. You stay surprisingly functional for somebody who's only getting ~2 hours total sleep a day, but you definitely lose cognitive function. I didn't realize it at the time -- like a drunk or anybody functioning in a sleep debt it doesn't feel like you've lost cognitive function, but it's readily apparent to anybody who knows you well. The worst time is the half hour or so before your next scheduled nap. Perhaps the biggest thing I gained from the experiment was the ability to take a power nap any time, any where.
  - philh 12y ago
    > Perhaps the biggest thing I gained from the experiment was the ability to take a power nap any time, any where. If this can be reliably learned, it actually seems really valuable. Now I wonder if there's a way to learn it that doesn't cost significant IQ for three months.
- tbrownaw 12y ago
  Lots of people try it, and some of them post articles here about how it feels starting out. I've never heard of anyone actually sticking to it. I also haven't seen any of these reports that give actual objective measures of before/after cognitive function (they don't even have to be that rigorous, maybe a log of scores/times at tetris or dual-n-back or sudoku or 2048 or something), just subjective reports which as TFA says aren't exactly reliable.
  - orand 12y ago
    The author of the Ubersleep book is an example of someone actually sticking with it. http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/the-ubersleep-book/ http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/the-ubersleep-book/ Another well-documented example is Steve Pavlina. http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/ http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/
andyidsinga 12y ago
best sleep aid ever: the hostory of the decline and fall of the roman empire by edward gibbon. 2 pages for me and im out like a light.
- danpat 12y ago
  I prefer "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Gibbon, by Edward Empire" myself... edit: it's a Monty Python joke people. Perhaps more relevant would be to have a chat with Keith Maniac from Guatemala, who claims he can put bricks to sleep? (ref: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/interest.php http://www.montypython.net/scripts/interest.php)
  - andyidsinga 12y ago
    any response including monty python gets an upvote from me!
cmwelsh 12y ago
Add a yoga class to your lunch schedule... usually the final resting period is a great time to grab a 15 minute nap and get ready for the afternoon.
njoglekar 12y ago
If anyone is interested, we did an AmA about the benefits of and science behind sleeping and napping a while back: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1vyuz2/iama_scientist_who_specializes_in_napping_and_the/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1vyuz2/iama_scientist_...
coulomb 12y ago
I've heard that the amount of sleep you need is a genetic thing. But is that true? Does anyone know what the main research articles are for that? And has anyone ever significantly changed the amount they need by lifestyle changes (like daily exercise)?
- aResponder51 12y ago
  I needed a few more hours sleep on days with a lot of exercise (hours long sessions). Sleep hygiene helps. Lights out, blackout blinds, loud fans and notification sounds off, no TV in the bedroom. The sleep you get is of a higher quality. I haven't done it yet, but reddish lighting for late evening is something I'm doing around the middle of fall this year.
rcthompson 12y ago
I wish I could take naps during the day when I get fatigued, but unfortunately I have severe sleep apnea, so unless I sleep with a CPAP machine, I don't actually get any rest. And my CPAP machine isn's something I can bring to work.
- larrys 12y ago
  Travel cpap machines. (I saw an article on this might not have been this exact one it was a big advertisement also in the WSJ some time ago). "http://www.cpap.com/productpage/z1-travel-cpap-machine.html" http://www.cpap.com/productpage/z1-travel-cpap-machine.html" I understand you still need a mask with these but it might be worth considering depending on where you can situate yourself.
  - rcthompson 12y ago
    Well, my CPAP machine is already relatively portable, but I don't have anywhere to nap at work, except in my car, which doesn't have an AC outlet (also, I'd like to start biking to work, so I don't want to wed myself to the car). I share a room with several other people, so I would need somewhere else to nap.
    - cambion 12y ago
      On an unrelated note: May I suggest getting a second travel CPAP even if you're not going to nap at the office? You can use it for travel and vacations, but the best reason to have one is as a backup. Trust me when I say that you don't want to wait a month for a replacement when your existing CPAP fails (and it WILL fail). Also, it's worth noting that many travel CPAPs have 12-volt car lighter adapters so you can run it off of your car's battery. So maybe you could use it to nap in your car?
      - rcthompson 12y ago
        Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely look into it.
rqebmm 12y ago
Sleep and I have a rocky relationship. I'm terrible at falling asleep, and even worse at waking up, but boy have I learned to value it. I can't nap, because I literally can't sleep anything less than 4 hours. Friends and relatives have tried yelling/shaking/banging pots and pans, but the only thing that will wake me is cold water to the face. However, I've found taking a few moments to meditate can do wonders when I'm getting that run-down-man-I-could-use-a-nap feeling.
- bonobo 12y ago
  I usually say that I don't have trouble sleeping, my trouble is with changing states :) I seldom go to bed in time because I hate to lay there trying to get asleep. Wanting to make more use of my day also doesn't help; I don't get home before 7:30pm, and I don't want to just dine and go to bed... Then comes the morning and I just can't wake up, even after 9, 10hs. I put my alarm clock far away from my bed because I used to just turn it off and keep sleeping. It doesn't help that much though: I "wake up", walk to it, turn it off and go back to under my sheets. "Wake up" as in I'm walking but I'm not totally conscious. It's like I'm drunk, I'll always find a nonsense reason to justify going back to bed, like "hell, I need to go back to my bed now, or it will get too light and float away"
  - foobarqux 12y ago
    Sleep inertia (sleep drunkeness), disorientation and waking hallucinations are all signs of a sleep disorder.
  - rqebmm 12y ago
    In college I used to climb down from the top bunk, walk across the room, turn off my alarm, and climb back up a ladder in my sleep. Or so I was told anyway, I always assumed I had just slept through my alarm!
socrates1998 12y ago
Honestly, I think a bigger issue is what time we actually go to sleep. I think a lot professionals just don't get to sleep on time for the required 7-8 hours. If you get up at 6 or 7 in the morning, that means you are deep asleep by 10 or 11 pm. I just don't think a lot of sleep deprived people are doing that. At least that's alway been my experience.
- rubicon33 12y ago
  This. What's missing from this article, is a discussion about ideal sleep TIMES. Not everyone is meant to sleep from 10-6. Yes, you can fudge your sleep cycle and you can adjust, but only so much. I'm naturally a night owl. With no alarm clock, and no obligations, I will "naturally" fall asleep at 3am, and wake up at 11. In times of my life when I've been able to do this, the 8 hours that I would get then FAR TRUMPED the 8 hours I get now. It's night and day.
  - vanderZwan 12y ago
    > I'm naturally a night owl. Many people are unnatural night owls, thanks to blue light sources in the evening - perhaps that applies to you too. Have you tried f.lux? http://getflux.com/ http://getflux.com/
    - makeset 12y ago
      Blue light may be interrupting sleep patterns, but I assume people who call themselves night owls share with me a certain feeling of mental haze during daylight hours, regardless of sleep schedule. I'm also about 5% weaker at lifting maximal weights until late afternoon. For what it's worth, I don't consume caffeine (allergic) and I do use f.lux.
      - pm 12y ago
        I used to call myself a owl too. Often I would be in a haze until late afternoon, then work right up until I went to sleep. Running a business with employees meant I had to shift to mornings (though no longer), but now I'm definitely a lark. My schedule is almost reversed: I work an hour after I get up, and then chill out a couple of hours before bed. Overall, on this schedule I feel much more rested.
awjr 12y ago
Working from home helps a lot here. I've found starting the day with exercise (30 minute cycle ride) helps kick start my alertness. I split my lunch, I'll eat quickly at my desk around 12, then work for a couple of hours, then take a nap around 2pm. Seems to set me up for the afternoon.
6d0debc071 12y ago
I don't think that people who function well with little sleep have a significant advantage anyway. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that they can get something like 1/16th or so more done in a day - 1/16th of what? A six month project? Delivering 11 days earlier than the other side on something that takes six months isn't likely to be a make or break point on a contract, even if their whole team could work like that - which they undoubtedly couldn't. It seems like fuel efficiency for your car. If you go from 5mph to 10mpg it's a huge saving, but going to 40 from 35 is almost negligible.
- dasil003 12y ago
  Totally agree on this. The low-hanging fruit isn't squeezing in a couple more hours, its improving the quality of the hours you currently have. If you can do 8 hours every weekday of truly productive time spent focused on the right things you'll run circles around most of these 100-hour-week braggarts anyway. Of course if you are truly god's gift to white-collar workaholism then sure those additional hours can add up, but if you sacrifice sleep and thus cognitive function you're shooting yourself in the foot to get there and probably don't even realize it because of the haze you're living in.
- cheald 12y ago
  Well, for many programmers at least, the marginal value of time is not constant. An additional hour when I'm "in the zone" is massively more productive than my first hour of the day.
adocracy 12y ago
I use the Jawbone UP24 to monitor my sleep, and apparently, whether I'm getting 4 hours or 6.5 hours, I constantly get ~ 3:50:00 of REM sleep. Yes, I'm one of those founders who can get by on less than 8 hours, but I totally recognize the value of naps and wouldn't discourage my cofounders or employees from taking advantage of that.
austinz 12y ago
"a person who is sleep deprived has no idea how functionally impaired he or she truly is. Most of us have forgotten what it really feels like to be awake." I can attest to this. I went through a months-long phase where I got about four to five hours of sleep a night, mostly because I was going to bed around 4 or 5 AM. Only after I began going to bed at a more reasonable time and getting more sleep did I realize how much my mood had suffered and how much worse my ability to concentrate and solve problems had been.
japhyr 12y ago
I like to run long distances, half marathons and mountain runs. When I'm in shape, I can run reasonably fast; I can get close to 7-minute miles on hilly half marathons, and place in the upper quartile in mountain runs. I have gone through some times in life where it's been really hard to sleep properly. My kid is three years old now, and he still interrupts my sleep patterns. I'm a teacher, and I never sleep enough during the busy time at the start of each school year. When I'm not sleeping enough, I feel it in my running. My muscles are fine, my cardiovascular system is fine, but something isn't there. I can maintain my mileage, but when I try to push myself, I just come up empty. The best approach I've ever found to help me get enough sleep, was to get rid of my alarm clock. Not using an alarm clock ensures that I get the most out of the sleep that I do get each night.
- AhtiK 12y ago
  Strangely I feel dizzy without alarm clock and it takes a bit too much time to get to high energy. With alarm clock there's a certain rush to jump into action. I wish I had the same rush without an alarm clock.
  - vanderZwan 12y ago
    I know I'm going to state something obvious, but have you tried going to bed earlier? I've honestly met people who try to get up earlier, but don't realize the easiest way to get up early (in the longer term, of course) is to catch sleep early.
    - AhtiK 12y ago
      My wakeup time is flexible so I have tried the whole spectrum, going to bed earlier (10pm) or later ~12am, ~2-3am. Waking up without alarm for all these sleeptimes feels roughly the same so I'm not sure if I'm a "lark" or "owl". My focus is definitely the best in the evening, just hate the slow fogginess in the morning and would like to switch to "lark" mode, unsuccessfully. Waking up with alarm makes me more sharp than without alarm but as the wakeup time is flexible it feels stupid to do so and I fallback to dizzy mornings and late-night work against ma inner will.
robg 12y ago
The corollary that he leaves out - Sleep appears to wash away toxins that collect during the stressful day. Sleep seems to be a form of garbage collection. http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm
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logfromblammo 12y ago
The problem is that Western culture, particularly the Anglophone subset, is generally against sleep, equating the pursuit of adequate sleep--which vaies by individual--with sloth or laziness. A sleeping person is very obviously not working. Through two acquaintance connections, I know someone who was assigned night shift work, and then was fired for falling asleep on the job in the first month. The employer made zero accomodations for the fact that he has human employees, and that he put them into a constant state of war with their own bodies to get his money. Pilots have to enlist the aid of regulators and unions to get their airlines to recognize that pilot fatigue is not the pilot's fault. I suspect that this attitude was probably influenced by Anglo racism against Hispanics, targeting the midday siesta custom. It is somewhat telling that to get an Anglo to sleep around midday, you have to rebrand it as a "power nap", and sell it as a late-day productivity booster. People in our society can advance to positions of greater authority by sacrificing biologically important things like sleep, leisure, and companionship and temporarily compensating with drugs like caffeine, cocaine, and prescription stimulants. Then they reach their acme, get the executive position, and resume normal work and sleep patterns while pretending to themselves that they could still work 120 hours every week. Then they reason that since they were able to achieve greatness by temporarily sacrificing a lot of sleep, everyone should be able to do a little better by sacrificing a little permanently. They don't particularly care about the science, since they have firsthand knowledge of their own meteoric rise and subsequent success. Everyone else is stuck trying to defend against continual encroachment on the 40-hour work week, and they are forced to sacrifice sleep by necessity rather than by choice.
hyperion2010 12y ago
I always try to get 8 hours a night no exceptions. I gave up caffeine 2 years ago and really haven't needed it. Many of my colleagues get about 6 hours a night and tell me they feel like shit. That said, my PI is one of the rare people who only needs 3-4 hours a night and the guy has published over 500 papers and has read nearly everything published in or tangentially related to neuroscience. On average he probably gets and extra day of productive time a week which is a huge advantage.
- hndude 12y ago
  PI... principle investigator?
  - hyperion2010 12y ago
    Yes.
krmmalik 12y ago
I just woke up from a mid-afternoon nap and read this. What a lovely co-incidence. Tony Schwarz is still the ultimate when it comes to productivity. I first came across his material when watching Eben Pagan's "Get Altitude" seminar, and I have to say, what he said in that video was life changing. I've since seen the video a number of times. I don't think there's anyone else out there that explains it -- or even gets to the crux of the points -- like he does. I've implemented many of his ideas over time (his book is good, but I still found the seminar to be better). - Avoid multi-tasking. Anything that is an interference will reduce productivity - Create more physical energy by expending it - Be mindful of your emotional and spiritual energy. It works like a pyramid. I'm not as disciplined as some of my friends who I watched this material with, but I will say, it's had a great impact on my life. This whole idea that you need to work into the night, or around the clock is absurd. Our bodies aren't made for it.
cleliodpaula 12y ago
we're so close to understand that we're slightly different for each other, and bio-self-analytics will show us this. we just need 2 or 3 years more. to hack us.
soup10 12y ago
Being able to set my own sleep schedule was a driving factor in wanting to start my own business. The tyranny of early wake ups and long commutes left me pissed off, grumpy and unable to work to the best of my ability at school and jobs.
dang 12y ago
Robg, who posted this, is a longtime HNer whose current startup makes a watch that monitors your stress level. He wears the watch all the time and told me that one of his biggest lessons from it so far was about sleep. Rob, do you want to repeat that here? I thought it was interesting; maybe others would too.
- robg 12y ago
  Sure! It took me a decade as a neuroscientist to realize that sleep is the inverse of stress. That's physiologically speaking - stress is the sympathetic system; sleep is the parasympathetic system. We're seeing a type of high stress sleep. We don't know what it means or why. But the aim is to continue to drill in - a kind of citizen science of how sleep and stress interact. What questions would folks what to see answered? I discovered wearing our watch that naps are stress relieving for me. Others see the same effect during meditation, and I wonder if that too is a form of sleep, physiologically speaking. EDIT: Since it got buried below, this study will turn out to be a huge inflection point in terms of how sleep is understood and taught. Sleep appears to wash away toxins that collect during the stressful day. Sleep seems to be a form of garbage collection. http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm
  - dang 12y ago
    What do you mean by "we're seeing a type of high stress sleep"? It sounds counterintuitive.
    - robg 12y ago
      I mean that people report (and their activity data suggests) sleeping but that the sympathetic response - "fight-or-flight" - didn't seem to turn down significantly from being awake. The best analogy, I think, is that your body should flip to idle during sleep, but we see that you're still running very hot.
      - larrys 12y ago
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dlevine 12y ago
About 10 years ago, I was talking to Aaron Iba, and he told me that one of his biggest advantages over other programmers is that he makes sure to get a good night's sleep every night. At the moment, I kind of dismissed it, but in hindsight, I think that he was dead-on. Sure, getting enough sleep won't magically make you a genius overnight. But it will allow you to maximize the potential that you have.
Chinjut 12y ago
I'm sure it's true that avoiding sleep-deprivation is useful for "productivity", but, frankly, it saddens me that that this is the way it has to be pitched to get people to pay attention. Avoiding sleep-deprivation is also great for avoiding sleep-deprivation! You feel better and are healthier! Not all of life is (or should be) about productivity, the workplace, competitive advantage, etc.
eldude 12y ago
If you're having trouble sleeping, see my previous comment on the issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5672023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5672023 I used to never be able to fall asleep before 5am.
josephlord 12y ago
I failed to read this article on an iPad because something (I think the floating link on the right) kept jumping me to another article. Of course the website isn't buggy I'm just holding it wrong.
Bahamut 12y ago
I learned early on the value of sleep - a good amount of rest allows you to be focused longer during dredges of work. From my own experience, it helped immensely during grad school, and it helps me now with my career. I almost never have to wake up for an alarm - I naturally wake up at a good time, without the added stressor of a hurried morning. All it takes is a little discipline and advanced planning to get yourself prepared.
cheald 12y ago
When I left my cubicle job to strike off on my own in 2007, one of the most valuable lessons I learned was "sleep when you're tired". 7 years, a couple of businesses, and 2 (soon to be 3) kids later, I manage to still be able to work and play very hard without feeling chronically tired or burnt out, and I'm convinced it's because I sleep when I need to sleep (and don't when I don't). If it's the middle of the work day and my body is saying "sleep!", then I'll go take a 2-hour nap, which completely revitalizes me. If I've been up for 20 hours and am still going strong, am thinking clearly, and am not feeling tired, I stay up. Sometimes I sleep for 5 hours, sometimes I sleep for 11. (It's worth noting that this only works with kids because I have my wife's support - she holds down the fort while I sleep, and visa versa. We play active defense for each others' sleep.) This has had a couple of effects. First of all, it means that whenever I'm working, I'm actually working. I don't have those days where I just stare at my screen blankly, unable to get any significant momentum like I did before. Secondly, it made me able adapt to varying sleep needs (which is amazingly helpful with kids). I'm not really on a particular circadian rhythm. On a typical day, I might be up from 10 AM-2 AM PST, but then I'll travel back east and the next day I'll be up from 3 AM-7PM PST without any real difficulty. I realize that not everyone has the luxury of being able to take naps or sleep for as long as they need it, but if you have some flexibility, start listening to your body, rather than toughing it out from 9-5 "because that's what you're supposed to do." Also, as a side note: Use f.lux - when I started using it, I noted a drastic shift in how I get tired. Before, I would just go and go until I hard-crashed; now, I start feeling tired slowly over time, which makes it much easier to go to sleep at the right time.
up_and_up 12y ago
All hours of the night are not created equal! I am happy with 5-6 hours a night + 20-30 mins of meditation in the morning. But I always get to bed by midnight! I used to work in the evenings until 1am or 2am and then sleep later. But I found getting up early (5:30am-6:30am) and working in the morning made a huge difference. Working late in the evening made me feel weak and stressed out. Working in the early morning after meditating makes me feel like I am serious seizing the day. This is with 3 kids, busy job, hectic schedule etc. I have tested this out on myself for the past 5 years. </anecdote>
jotm 12y ago
The quality of sleep is important, too. Sometimes, you get that 6 hour sleep that feels like an eternity and you are reborn when you wake up. Most of the time, we get 8 hours of mediocre sleep - guess which one's better? There also seems to be a Ballmer's peak to sleep - too little and you're deprived, but too much and you're groggy and slow. 7 hours seems to do it for me - I am well rested, yet still on that invisible edge that makes my body push harder when I need it, unlike a seemingly good 9 hours of sleep, after which I just can't seem to engage that certain drive that makes me think quick and be creative.
girvo 12y ago
I agree entirely! I absolutely love naps as a way to increase mental performance, and they're comfortable to boot. The issue I have is that I can't quite see myself having one in the office at work... I mean, perhaps I could get away with it, but those who don't understand the power of a quick nap to get your mind refreshed and working at 100% capacity would probably think I'm odd.
sirdogealot 12y ago
>The two techniques that most help me to fall asleep when I’m under pressure are to write down what’s on my mind (to get it off my mind) and to breathe deeply if I’m still staying awake — in to a count of three, out to a count of six. A friend of mine once told me as I was feigning sleep one evening as usual to: "just breathe like you are already asleep" And 5 minutes later I was out like a light.
d23 12y ago
I'm jealous of those high-energy folks that seem to be running around on even 7 hours without feeling exhausted. Whether I get 7 hours or 12 hours, I feel the same: sleepy.
chondos 12y ago
This article just reminds me of how it is human nature to think that "everyone is like me". Most people cannot sleep on demand no matter how hard or what methods they try. Others are more alert and do better in testing with less than 8 hours of sleep. Some of the greatest minds in history slept 5 hours a night on average. Everyone is different. Only you know what works well for you. I am tired of people telling others to be like themselves. This most likely will not work. Of course a handful of people will come out of the woodwork and say "this changed my life". This causes even more people to try it. Bummer is that only those handful of people actually benefit from it because we all are vastly unique and there is no one size fits all umbrella formula.
dokka 12y ago
After reading this, I slept for ~8 hours last night for the first time in months. I feel great today! Thanks!
semerda 12y ago
All good and great that people write about the value of power naps. And I totally agree of it's value. I love power napping. The energy boost & mental clarity it provides is awesome. But, I am still yet to see a startup/mature business declare proudly that they encourage nap time and/or list that in their benefits web page. Maybe some already do? But I haven't seen any yet. Please share links. I am curious to see whether the reality of the business world allows for this natural boost or are we still deep down driven by old fashioned work ethics.

480 points by robg 12y ago

kordless 12y ago

I'm a big fan of naps. I take one around 2PM or so, usually for about 15-20 minutes.

acgourley 12y ago
Same here, although it seems quite personal in terms of benefits and ability to execute.
johnward 12y ago
I can never take short naps. I always end up wanting to sleep the rest of the day.
- njoglekar 12y ago
  Is the problem waking up or a groggy feeling the rest of the day?
  - johnward 12y ago
    Usually waking up I think. I don't usually nap but I took a nap yesterday that probably turned into 3 hours of sleep. When I woke up I wanted to go to bed but once I got up and moving I felt fine.
    - njoglekar 12y ago
      That's actually really common. In fact I'm making a product / wearable to help with that. I'll do a Show HN soon :).
- simonh 12y ago
  Here's a few tricks I learned a few years ago. 1. I never nap for more than 20 minutes. If my body goes into a deeper level of sleep or relaxation, I get up feeling groggy and disoriented. 2. Properly nap. Force yourself not to think about work. Focus on other things such as the weight of your body sinking into the chair/couch, the distant sound of traffic, etc. 3. Towards the end of the nap, very slowly and deliberately count up to 20, with a maybe 2 or 3 long slow breaths between counts. Completely relax during this count, but on the count of 20 immediately, instantly get up and go about your business. Know that this is what you are going to do, but don't let your body tense up or in any way get ready for it. Works for me like a charm. Just psychologically knowing I'm going to do this somehow prepares me for it at a deep level.
  - tnorthcutt 12y ago
    Towards the end of the nap, very slowly and deliberately count up to 20 How do you do this while you are asleep? Or do you mean do this after you wake up?
    - tripzilch 12y ago
      The latter. I read about this elsewhere (except it was counting down from 10, but the details don't matter). It's psychologically priming yourself, "I'm going to get UP at the last count!". Part of it is about how it's easier to make such decisions when it's not right now, but somewhere in the future. The second part is that when the count is up, you actually do it without thinking. I tried it a couple of times and it does seem to help with the "uggh no just one more minute" false reasoning. Haven't managed to turn it into a habit though.
  - bentcorner 12y ago
    > 1. I never nap for more than 20 minutes. If my body goes into a deeper level of sleep or relaxation, I get up feeling groggy and disoriented. > 2. Properly nap. Force yourself not to think about work. Focus on other things such as the weight of your body sinking into the chair/couch, the distant sound of traffic, etc. I think these are the most important, and they should be considered together. Set a timer for 15 minutes, and lie down. Even if you don't fall asleep for those 15 minutes (I probably end up in deep sleep for 5-10 minutes), get up when your alarm goes off. Even closing your eyes for 15 minutes can be beneficial.
- jqm 12y ago
  I used to be exactly the same way....particularly my late teens and twenties where I would sleep half the day if I tried to take a nap. Sometime around 40 that changed. I take a nap almost every day, (sometimes 2, esp if doing something mentally taxing...I can do this since I work from home), but it's been years since I have been able to take a nap exceeding 20 minutes. I simply wake up, no alarm or stimuli needed. Even if I was up all night the night before. Sometimes, (like on Sunday afternoon), it's annoying. I would like to be able to enjoy a long nap again occasionally. I've wondered about this, and would love a solid physiological explanation.
  - johnward 12y ago
    I'm 28 so maybe it will change as I continue to age. I used to be able to sleep until 3pm if I really wanted too(assuming I had no alarm clock to wake me up to do something productive). Now I naturally wake up around 7am-9am no matter how late I stay up.
- rahimnathwani 12y ago
  Have a coffee just before
- rahimnathwani 12y ago
  Have a cup of coffee just before you take a nap. The caffeine will kick in at around the same time your 20-min alarm goes off.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    Caffeine doesn't actually work like that. It's not a timed on/off switch. Like most drugs it'll gradually ramp up in effect, stay at max for a while and then taper off again. So if it's "kicked in" when the 20 min alarm goes off that means the last 5 min of that 20 will have been restless because the caffeine was already working. Caffeine is the great antagonist of sleep quality anyway. Just drop it for a month, see how that feels. Then see how much it fucks up your sleeping quality as you take even two cups of strong coffee (which is great fun because the caffeine will actually work full power, it's amazing, but your sleep after that night will suffer). This "coffee power nap" thing is a very nice story, but it's based on nothing. People that have success with it are finding the benefits of having a nap despite their caffeine usage.
    - rahimnathwani 12y ago
      You may be right. I read that tip somewhere a few years ago, and it worked the times I tried it. It could have been the placebo effect or just coincidence, and I didn't try napping without it.
CmonDev 12y ago
It's not about being a fan or not, it's about a possibility of doing this in a typical office.
- cylinder 12y ago
  Offices are lagging so far behind. We need bike storage, shower rooms, nap rooms, lots of natural light, open rooms, quiet rooms, better snacks and drinks...
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    My wife's office has bike storage, in a building built in the 1920s.
eli 12y ago
I'm jealous. It typically takes me an hour to fall asleep.
- matwood 12y ago
  I also take a long time to fall asleep, but a nap does not have to mean full sleep. Just laying there for 20 minutes with your eyes closed is often just as effective.
  - kordless 12y ago
    That's absolutely true. Also, practice makes perfect!

jusben1369 12y ago

It was explained to me that a small % of people can get by with less than 8 hours sleep. Those people then often move to the top of the org chart either as founders or management in larger companies. Perhaps unsurprisingly, given their lack of need for sleep, they're not big believers in the value of sleep and napping. That's why you'll see these articles every 3 - 6 months and nothing will really change.

adocracy 12y ago
See my comment above - I think even "low sleepers" recognize the value of sleep for clear thinking and emotional balance. I totally value napping.

blrgeek 12y ago

Naps save me every time. Just when my work starts flagging and quality starts dropping, a 20min nap makes me feel almost as fresh as I am coming into the office in the morning. Most others at work feel awkward about taking naps - even with me evangelising naps :o)

nacnud 12y ago
Where do you nap? Does your office provide a suitable place?
- CmonDev 12y ago
  Most under-appreciated killer hiring feature.
  - tdoggette 12y ago
    I usually nap under the pool table that no one uses.
- mrexroad 12y ago
  i used to nap under my cubicle desk... w/ the geometry of my cube, no one could see me even if they poked their head in. doesn't work w/ standing desks in open layouts :( now i often go to car.
- blrgeek 12y ago
  On my chair/desk. I reduce the chair's height so I'm not bending over too much, and put my head on my arms on the table.
bentcorner 12y ago
I have to admit, I'd feel awkward taking naps in my office. What I usually do is go to my car in the parking garage and nap there. It works wonders; I recognize that the 15 min that I lose to the nap would have been lost to my brain being a foggy mess, so the nap is a net gain.

rayiner 12y ago

The key takeaway is this: > The research is overwhelming that the vast majority of us require seven to eight hours of sleep to feel fully rested, and only a small percentage require less than seven. I'm sometimes envious of people I meet that can function well with little sleep, but I resign myself to the fact that I wasn't dealt that particular card. You can't compete with those folks by simply trying to ape their habits.

rmc 12y ago
"But I'm special!"
viraptor 12y ago
> Most of us have forgotten what it really feels like to be awake.” This may be one part of it. Some time ago, I'd definitely tell you I'm fine with little sleep. You can do it if you sleep very little every night. It's quite easy to adapt to, for example during university exam times But then after some years you realise you're not actually fine. You just don't remember how different is it to sleep longer. I'm still fighting with myself now to sleep for a reasonable time to reverse the old habit. I did tell people I'm fine with little sleep before. I will happily tell them now that I was lying - just didn't know it at the time.
- rayiner 12y ago
  In grad school, I made it a point to cut-off my studying to get a consistent 7-9 hours of sleep in the days leading up to each exam. It worked enormously better for me than my sleep-deprived cram sessions in undergrad, and I think some of my classmates suffered for prioritizing taking another pass over the material instead of being well-rested.
  - vanderZwan 12y ago
    Considering the brain needs to sleep to fixate memories, your approach is better. Of course, assuming you can fall asleep - if you can't because you feel you haven't studied enough...

elwell 12y ago

> Most of us have forgotten what it really feels like to be awake. Reminded me of this relevant TED Talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/jessa_gamble_how_to_sleep http://www.ted.com/talks/jessa_gamble_how_to_sleep

webwielder 12y ago

Too bad the body is often pretty lousy at honoring requests for quality sleep even when we make the time.

general_failure 12y ago
Yeah, I found that I need to train my body to sleep. If I go for a week or two with little sleep, the body seems to readjust to the pattern and refuses to sleep more.
- jusben1369 12y ago
  Did you read the article though? You may not be sleeping due to your training it but you're at a competitive disadvantage to your peers.
  - aninhumer 12y ago
    I don't think general_failure was saying it was a good thing, just that once they're on a short sleep schedule, they find it difficult to get more than that even when they try.
adestefan 12y ago
The first step is to kick a caffeine habit if you have one. That means no coffee, no tea, no caffeinated soda.
- marvin 12y ago
  I have for most of my life not been drinking caffeine at all, and I'm never able to sleep whenever I decide to, apart from in the evening. So this is not a pancaea for everyone.
- saraid216 12y ago
  Is there a second step...?

jonathanjaeger 12y ago

I would much rather have less sleep + a 15-20 minute nap in the evening than no nap and an extra 45 minutes sleep at night. Luckily at 7pm it's not hard to take a power nap at the office in the conference room on a bean bag chair. I wish most offices made it easier for people to take naps as it's proven productivity would rise.

TylerE 12y ago
I would much rather not be in the office at 7PM.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

autokad 12y ago

i find meditation/naps more powerful. getting into the sleep stage totally upsets cycles, etc. at least thats how it is for me

bgitarts 12y ago

Has anyone tried polyphasic sleep cycles as a way to get less sleep without losing cognitive function?

bryanlarsen 12y ago
Yes, I tried it for about 3 months 8 years ago. You stay surprisingly functional for somebody who's only getting ~2 hours total sleep a day, but you definitely lose cognitive function. I didn't realize it at the time -- like a drunk or anybody functioning in a sleep debt it doesn't feel like you've lost cognitive function, but it's readily apparent to anybody who knows you well. The worst time is the half hour or so before your next scheduled nap. Perhaps the biggest thing I gained from the experiment was the ability to take a power nap any time, any where.
- philh 12y ago
  > Perhaps the biggest thing I gained from the experiment was the ability to take a power nap any time, any where. If this can be reliably learned, it actually seems really valuable. Now I wonder if there's a way to learn it that doesn't cost significant IQ for three months.
tbrownaw 12y ago
Lots of people try it, and some of them post articles here about how it feels starting out. I've never heard of anyone actually sticking to it. I also haven't seen any of these reports that give actual objective measures of before/after cognitive function (they don't even have to be that rigorous, maybe a log of scores/times at tetris or dual-n-back or sudoku or 2048 or something), just subjective reports which as TFA says aren't exactly reliable.
- orand 12y ago
  The author of the Ubersleep book is an example of someone actually sticking with it. http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/the-ubersleep-book/ http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/the-ubersleep-book/ Another well-documented example is Steve Pavlina. http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/ http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/

andyidsinga 12y ago

best sleep aid ever: the hostory of the decline and fall of the roman empire by edward gibbon. 2 pages for me and im out like a light.

danpat 12y ago
I prefer "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Gibbon, by Edward Empire" myself... edit: it's a Monty Python joke people. Perhaps more relevant would be to have a chat with Keith Maniac from Guatemala, who claims he can put bricks to sleep? (ref: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/interest.php http://www.montypython.net/scripts/interest.php)
- andyidsinga 12y ago
  any response including monty python gets an upvote from me!

cmwelsh 12y ago

Add a yoga class to your lunch schedule... usually the final resting period is a great time to grab a 15 minute nap and get ready for the afternoon.

njoglekar 12y ago

If anyone is interested, we did an AmA about the benefits of and science behind sleeping and napping a while back: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1vyuz2/iama_scientist_who_specializes_in_napping_and_the/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1vyuz2/iama_scientist_...

coulomb 12y ago

I've heard that the amount of sleep you need is a genetic thing. But is that true? Does anyone know what the main research articles are for that? And has anyone ever significantly changed the amount they need by lifestyle changes (like daily exercise)?

aResponder51 12y ago
I needed a few more hours sleep on days with a lot of exercise (hours long sessions). Sleep hygiene helps. Lights out, blackout blinds, loud fans and notification sounds off, no TV in the bedroom. The sleep you get is of a higher quality. I haven't done it yet, but reddish lighting for late evening is something I'm doing around the middle of fall this year.

rcthompson 12y ago

I wish I could take naps during the day when I get fatigued, but unfortunately I have severe sleep apnea, so unless I sleep with a CPAP machine, I don't actually get any rest. And my CPAP machine isn's something I can bring to work.

larrys 12y ago
Travel cpap machines. (I saw an article on this might not have been this exact one it was a big advertisement also in the WSJ some time ago). "http://www.cpap.com/productpage/z1-travel-cpap-machine.html" http://www.cpap.com/productpage/z1-travel-cpap-machine.html" I understand you still need a mask with these but it might be worth considering depending on where you can situate yourself.
- rcthompson 12y ago
  Well, my CPAP machine is already relatively portable, but I don't have anywhere to nap at work, except in my car, which doesn't have an AC outlet (also, I'd like to start biking to work, so I don't want to wed myself to the car). I share a room with several other people, so I would need somewhere else to nap.
  - cambion 12y ago
    On an unrelated note: May I suggest getting a second travel CPAP even if you're not going to nap at the office? You can use it for travel and vacations, but the best reason to have one is as a backup. Trust me when I say that you don't want to wait a month for a replacement when your existing CPAP fails (and it WILL fail). Also, it's worth noting that many travel CPAPs have 12-volt car lighter adapters so you can run it off of your car's battery. So maybe you could use it to nap in your car?
    - rcthompson 12y ago
      Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely look into it.

rqebmm 12y ago

Sleep and I have a rocky relationship. I'm terrible at falling asleep, and even worse at waking up, but boy have I learned to value it. I can't nap, because I literally can't sleep anything less than 4 hours. Friends and relatives have tried yelling/shaking/banging pots and pans, but the only thing that will wake me is cold water to the face. However, I've found taking a few moments to meditate can do wonders when I'm getting that run-down-man-I-could-use-a-nap feeling.

bonobo 12y ago
I usually say that I don't have trouble sleeping, my trouble is with changing states :) I seldom go to bed in time because I hate to lay there trying to get asleep. Wanting to make more use of my day also doesn't help; I don't get home before 7:30pm, and I don't want to just dine and go to bed... Then comes the morning and I just can't wake up, even after 9, 10hs. I put my alarm clock far away from my bed because I used to just turn it off and keep sleeping. It doesn't help that much though: I "wake up", walk to it, turn it off and go back to under my sheets. "Wake up" as in I'm walking but I'm not totally conscious. It's like I'm drunk, I'll always find a nonsense reason to justify going back to bed, like "hell, I need to go back to my bed now, or it will get too light and float away"
- foobarqux 12y ago
  Sleep inertia (sleep drunkeness), disorientation and waking hallucinations are all signs of a sleep disorder.
- rqebmm 12y ago
  In college I used to climb down from the top bunk, walk across the room, turn off my alarm, and climb back up a ladder in my sleep. Or so I was told anyway, I always assumed I had just slept through my alarm!

socrates1998 12y ago

Honestly, I think a bigger issue is what time we actually go to sleep. I think a lot professionals just don't get to sleep on time for the required 7-8 hours. If you get up at 6 or 7 in the morning, that means you are deep asleep by 10 or 11 pm. I just don't think a lot of sleep deprived people are doing that. At least that's alway been my experience.

rubicon33 12y ago
This. What's missing from this article, is a discussion about ideal sleep TIMES. Not everyone is meant to sleep from 10-6. Yes, you can fudge your sleep cycle and you can adjust, but only so much. I'm naturally a night owl. With no alarm clock, and no obligations, I will "naturally" fall asleep at 3am, and wake up at 11. In times of my life when I've been able to do this, the 8 hours that I would get then FAR TRUMPED the 8 hours I get now. It's night and day.
- vanderZwan 12y ago
  > I'm naturally a night owl. Many people are unnatural night owls, thanks to blue light sources in the evening - perhaps that applies to you too. Have you tried f.lux? http://getflux.com/ http://getflux.com/
  - makeset 12y ago
    Blue light may be interrupting sleep patterns, but I assume people who call themselves night owls share with me a certain feeling of mental haze during daylight hours, regardless of sleep schedule. I'm also about 5% weaker at lifting maximal weights until late afternoon. For what it's worth, I don't consume caffeine (allergic) and I do use f.lux.
    - pm 12y ago
      I used to call myself a owl too. Often I would be in a haze until late afternoon, then work right up until I went to sleep. Running a business with employees meant I had to shift to mornings (though no longer), but now I'm definitely a lark. My schedule is almost reversed: I work an hour after I get up, and then chill out a couple of hours before bed. Overall, on this schedule I feel much more rested.

awjr 12y ago

Working from home helps a lot here. I've found starting the day with exercise (30 minute cycle ride) helps kick start my alertness. I split my lunch, I'll eat quickly at my desk around 12, then work for a couple of hours, then take a nap around 2pm. Seems to set me up for the afternoon.

6d0debc071 12y ago

I don't think that people who function well with little sleep have a significant advantage anyway. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that they can get something like 1/16th or so more done in a day - 1/16th of what? A six month project? Delivering 11 days earlier than the other side on something that takes six months isn't likely to be a make or break point on a contract, even if their whole team could work like that - which they undoubtedly couldn't. It seems like fuel efficiency for your car. If you go from 5mph to 10mpg it's a huge saving, but going to 40 from 35 is almost negligible.

dasil003 12y ago
Totally agree on this. The low-hanging fruit isn't squeezing in a couple more hours, its improving the quality of the hours you currently have. If you can do 8 hours every weekday of truly productive time spent focused on the right things you'll run circles around most of these 100-hour-week braggarts anyway. Of course if you are truly god's gift to white-collar workaholism then sure those additional hours can add up, but if you sacrifice sleep and thus cognitive function you're shooting yourself in the foot to get there and probably don't even realize it because of the haze you're living in.
cheald 12y ago
Well, for many programmers at least, the marginal value of time is not constant. An additional hour when I'm "in the zone" is massively more productive than my first hour of the day.

adocracy 12y ago

I use the Jawbone UP24 to monitor my sleep, and apparently, whether I'm getting 4 hours or 6.5 hours, I constantly get ~ 3:50:00 of REM sleep. Yes, I'm one of those founders who can get by on less than 8 hours, but I totally recognize the value of naps and wouldn't discourage my cofounders or employees from taking advantage of that.

austinz 12y ago

"a person who is sleep deprived has no idea how functionally impaired he or she truly is. Most of us have forgotten what it really feels like to be awake." I can attest to this. I went through a months-long phase where I got about four to five hours of sleep a night, mostly because I was going to bed around 4 or 5 AM. Only after I began going to bed at a more reasonable time and getting more sleep did I realize how much my mood had suffered and how much worse my ability to concentrate and solve problems had been.

japhyr 12y ago

I like to run long distances, half marathons and mountain runs. When I'm in shape, I can run reasonably fast; I can get close to 7-minute miles on hilly half marathons, and place in the upper quartile in mountain runs. I have gone through some times in life where it's been really hard to sleep properly. My kid is three years old now, and he still interrupts my sleep patterns. I'm a teacher, and I never sleep enough during the busy time at the start of each school year. When I'm not sleeping enough, I feel it in my running. My muscles are fine, my cardiovascular system is fine, but something isn't there. I can maintain my mileage, but when I try to push myself, I just come up empty. The best approach I've ever found to help me get enough sleep, was to get rid of my alarm clock. Not using an alarm clock ensures that I get the most out of the sleep that I do get each night.

AhtiK 12y ago
Strangely I feel dizzy without alarm clock and it takes a bit too much time to get to high energy. With alarm clock there's a certain rush to jump into action. I wish I had the same rush without an alarm clock.
- vanderZwan 12y ago
  I know I'm going to state something obvious, but have you tried going to bed earlier? I've honestly met people who try to get up earlier, but don't realize the easiest way to get up early (in the longer term, of course) is to catch sleep early.
  - AhtiK 12y ago
    My wakeup time is flexible so I have tried the whole spectrum, going to bed earlier (10pm) or later ~12am, ~2-3am. Waking up without alarm for all these sleeptimes feels roughly the same so I'm not sure if I'm a "lark" or "owl". My focus is definitely the best in the evening, just hate the slow fogginess in the morning and would like to switch to "lark" mode, unsuccessfully. Waking up with alarm makes me more sharp than without alarm but as the wakeup time is flexible it feels stupid to do so and I fallback to dizzy mornings and late-night work against ma inner will.

robg 12y ago

The corollary that he leaves out - Sleep appears to wash away toxins that collect during the stressful day. Sleep seems to be a form of garbage collection. http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm

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logfromblammo 12y ago

The problem is that Western culture, particularly the Anglophone subset, is generally against sleep, equating the pursuit of adequate sleep--which vaies by individual--with sloth or laziness. A sleeping person is very obviously not working. Through two acquaintance connections, I know someone who was assigned night shift work, and then was fired for falling asleep on the job in the first month. The employer made zero accomodations for the fact that he has human employees, and that he put them into a constant state of war with their own bodies to get his money. Pilots have to enlist the aid of regulators and unions to get their airlines to recognize that pilot fatigue is not the pilot's fault. I suspect that this attitude was probably influenced by Anglo racism against Hispanics, targeting the midday siesta custom. It is somewhat telling that to get an Anglo to sleep around midday, you have to rebrand it as a "power nap", and sell it as a late-day productivity booster. People in our society can advance to positions of greater authority by sacrificing biologically important things like sleep, leisure, and companionship and temporarily compensating with drugs like caffeine, cocaine, and prescription stimulants. Then they reach their acme, get the executive position, and resume normal work and sleep patterns while pretending to themselves that they could still work 120 hours every week. Then they reason that since they were able to achieve greatness by temporarily sacrificing a lot of sleep, everyone should be able to do a little better by sacrificing a little permanently. They don't particularly care about the science, since they have firsthand knowledge of their own meteoric rise and subsequent success. Everyone else is stuck trying to defend against continual encroachment on the 40-hour work week, and they are forced to sacrifice sleep by necessity rather than by choice.

hyperion2010 12y ago

I always try to get 8 hours a night no exceptions. I gave up caffeine 2 years ago and really haven't needed it. Many of my colleagues get about 6 hours a night and tell me they feel like shit. That said, my PI is one of the rare people who only needs 3-4 hours a night and the guy has published over 500 papers and has read nearly everything published in or tangentially related to neuroscience. On average he probably gets and extra day of productive time a week which is a huge advantage.

hndude 12y ago
PI... principle investigator?
- hyperion2010 12y ago
  Yes.

krmmalik 12y ago

I just woke up from a mid-afternoon nap and read this. What a lovely co-incidence. Tony Schwarz is still the ultimate when it comes to productivity. I first came across his material when watching Eben Pagan's "Get Altitude" seminar, and I have to say, what he said in that video was life changing. I've since seen the video a number of times. I don't think there's anyone else out there that explains it -- or even gets to the crux of the points -- like he does. I've implemented many of his ideas over time (his book is good, but I still found the seminar to be better). - Avoid multi-tasking. Anything that is an interference will reduce productivity - Create more physical energy by expending it - Be mindful of your emotional and spiritual energy. It works like a pyramid. I'm not as disciplined as some of my friends who I watched this material with, but I will say, it's had a great impact on my life. This whole idea that you need to work into the night, or around the clock is absurd. Our bodies aren't made for it.

cleliodpaula 12y ago

we're so close to understand that we're slightly different for each other, and bio-self-analytics will show us this. we just need 2 or 3 years more. to hack us.

soup10 12y ago

Being able to set my own sleep schedule was a driving factor in wanting to start my own business. The tyranny of early wake ups and long commutes left me pissed off, grumpy and unable to work to the best of my ability at school and jobs.

dang 12y ago

Robg, who posted this, is a longtime HNer whose current startup makes a watch that monitors your stress level. He wears the watch all the time and told me that one of his biggest lessons from it so far was about sleep. Rob, do you want to repeat that here? I thought it was interesting; maybe others would too.

robg 12y ago
Sure! It took me a decade as a neuroscientist to realize that sleep is the inverse of stress. That's physiologically speaking - stress is the sympathetic system; sleep is the parasympathetic system. We're seeing a type of high stress sleep. We don't know what it means or why. But the aim is to continue to drill in - a kind of citizen science of how sleep and stress interact. What questions would folks what to see answered? I discovered wearing our watch that naps are stress relieving for me. Others see the same effect during meditation, and I wonder if that too is a form of sleep, physiologically speaking. EDIT: Since it got buried below, this study will turn out to be a huge inflection point in terms of how sleep is understood and taught. Sleep appears to wash away toxins that collect during the stressful day. Sleep seems to be a form of garbage collection. http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm
- dang 12y ago
  What do you mean by "we're seeing a type of high stress sleep"? It sounds counterintuitive.
  - robg 12y ago
    I mean that people report (and their activity data suggests) sleeping but that the sympathetic response - "fight-or-flight" - didn't seem to turn down significantly from being awake. The best analogy, I think, is that your body should flip to idle during sleep, but we see that you're still running very hot.
    - larrys 12y ago

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dlevine 12y ago

About 10 years ago, I was talking to Aaron Iba, and he told me that one of his biggest advantages over other programmers is that he makes sure to get a good night's sleep every night. At the moment, I kind of dismissed it, but in hindsight, I think that he was dead-on. Sure, getting enough sleep won't magically make you a genius overnight. But it will allow you to maximize the potential that you have.

Chinjut 12y ago

I'm sure it's true that avoiding sleep-deprivation is useful for "productivity", but, frankly, it saddens me that that this is the way it has to be pitched to get people to pay attention. Avoiding sleep-deprivation is also great for avoiding sleep-deprivation! You feel better and are healthier! Not all of life is (or should be) about productivity, the workplace, competitive advantage, etc.

eldude 12y ago

If you're having trouble sleeping, see my previous comment on the issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5672023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5672023 I used to never be able to fall asleep before 5am.

josephlord 12y ago

I failed to read this article on an iPad because something (I think the floating link on the right) kept jumping me to another article. Of course the website isn't buggy I'm just holding it wrong.

Bahamut 12y ago

I learned early on the value of sleep - a good amount of rest allows you to be focused longer during dredges of work. From my own experience, it helped immensely during grad school, and it helps me now with my career. I almost never have to wake up for an alarm - I naturally wake up at a good time, without the added stressor of a hurried morning. All it takes is a little discipline and advanced planning to get yourself prepared.

cheald 12y ago

When I left my cubicle job to strike off on my own in 2007, one of the most valuable lessons I learned was "sleep when you're tired". 7 years, a couple of businesses, and 2 (soon to be 3) kids later, I manage to still be able to work and play very hard without feeling chronically tired or burnt out, and I'm convinced it's because I sleep when I need to sleep (and don't when I don't). If it's the middle of the work day and my body is saying "sleep!", then I'll go take a 2-hour nap, which completely revitalizes me. If I've been up for 20 hours and am still going strong, am thinking clearly, and am not feeling tired, I stay up. Sometimes I sleep for 5 hours, sometimes I sleep for 11. (It's worth noting that this only works with kids because I have my wife's support - she holds down the fort while I sleep, and visa versa. We play active defense for each others' sleep.) This has had a couple of effects. First of all, it means that whenever I'm working, I'm actually working. I don't have those days where I just stare at my screen blankly, unable to get any significant momentum like I did before. Secondly, it made me able adapt to varying sleep needs (which is amazingly helpful with kids). I'm not really on a particular circadian rhythm. On a typical day, I might be up from 10 AM-2 AM PST, but then I'll travel back east and the next day I'll be up from 3 AM-7PM PST without any real difficulty. I realize that not everyone has the luxury of being able to take naps or sleep for as long as they need it, but if you have some flexibility, start listening to your body, rather than toughing it out from 9-5 "because that's what you're supposed to do." Also, as a side note: Use f.lux - when I started using it, I noted a drastic shift in how I get tired. Before, I would just go and go until I hard-crashed; now, I start feeling tired slowly over time, which makes it much easier to go to sleep at the right time.

up_and_up 12y ago

All hours of the night are not created equal! I am happy with 5-6 hours a night + 20-30 mins of meditation in the morning. But I always get to bed by midnight! I used to work in the evenings until 1am or 2am and then sleep later. But I found getting up early (5:30am-6:30am) and working in the morning made a huge difference. Working late in the evening made me feel weak and stressed out. Working in the early morning after meditating makes me feel like I am serious seizing the day. This is with 3 kids, busy job, hectic schedule etc. I have tested this out on myself for the past 5 years. </anecdote>

jotm 12y ago

The quality of sleep is important, too. Sometimes, you get that 6 hour sleep that feels like an eternity and you are reborn when you wake up. Most of the time, we get 8 hours of mediocre sleep - guess which one's better? There also seems to be a Ballmer's peak to sleep - too little and you're deprived, but too much and you're groggy and slow. 7 hours seems to do it for me - I am well rested, yet still on that invisible edge that makes my body push harder when I need it, unlike a seemingly good 9 hours of sleep, after which I just can't seem to engage that certain drive that makes me think quick and be creative.

girvo 12y ago

I agree entirely! I absolutely love naps as a way to increase mental performance, and they're comfortable to boot. The issue I have is that I can't quite see myself having one in the office at work... I mean, perhaps I could get away with it, but those who don't understand the power of a quick nap to get your mind refreshed and working at 100% capacity would probably think I'm odd.

sirdogealot 12y ago

>The two techniques that most help me to fall asleep when I’m under pressure are to write down what’s on my mind (to get it off my mind) and to breathe deeply if I’m still staying awake — in to a count of three, out to a count of six. A friend of mine once told me as I was feigning sleep one evening as usual to: "just breathe like you are already asleep" And 5 minutes later I was out like a light.

d23 12y ago

I'm jealous of those high-energy folks that seem to be running around on even 7 hours without feeling exhausted. Whether I get 7 hours or 12 hours, I feel the same: sleepy.

chondos 12y ago

This article just reminds me of how it is human nature to think that "everyone is like me". Most people cannot sleep on demand no matter how hard or what methods they try. Others are more alert and do better in testing with less than 8 hours of sleep. Some of the greatest minds in history slept 5 hours a night on average. Everyone is different. Only you know what works well for you. I am tired of people telling others to be like themselves. This most likely will not work. Of course a handful of people will come out of the woodwork and say "this changed my life". This causes even more people to try it. Bummer is that only those handful of people actually benefit from it because we all are vastly unique and there is no one size fits all umbrella formula.

dokka 12y ago

After reading this, I slept for ~8 hours last night for the first time in months. I feel great today! Thanks!

semerda 12y ago

All good and great that people write about the value of power naps. And I totally agree of it's value. I love power napping. The energy boost & mental clarity it provides is awesome. But, I am still yet to see a startup/mature business declare proudly that they encourage nap time and/or list that in their benefits web page. Maybe some already do? But I haven't seen any yet. Please share links. I am curious to see whether the reality of the business world allows for this natural boost or are we still deep down driven by old fashioned work ethics.