7 ms·

Police Can Get Access to Your Cellphone Data Even After the Supreme Court Ruling

63 points by sinak 12y ago

diafygi 12y ago
The two ways mentioned in the article for how they can still do it are: 1) Ask the telco nicely. 2) MITM with things like stingray. #1 can be solved by telcos starting to say no, which might be easier to do now that you can blame it on economic fallout (e.g. Verizon losing the Germany contract). #2 will likely be solved by a successful court challenge by the ACLU. Not hopeless, in my opinion.
- danielweber 12y ago
  How do either of those get the data stored on the phone?
  - diafygi 12y ago
    Presumably, they would sniff traffic coming from your phone, which is what the article is talking about.
  - crunchcaptain 12y ago
    Here are some ideas: -QUANTUMINSERT -> SS7 -CANDYMAN -> GOPHERSET -WAP push -Vuln. via specially-crafted SMS/MMS -APN update
alexandros 12y ago
It's important to keep in mind that the phone holds more than location, call logs, and text messages though. It holds our photos, email, apps, the apps' storage, browsing history, and everything we do on the mobile internet. Putting that off limits is definitely a victory.
- pling 12y ago
  Or you could just stop using the tools that incriminate you? Voting with your feet works pretty well.
  - a3n 12y ago
    You could also stop using pen and paper, which will be exposed when a warrant is served.
    - keithpeter 12y ago
      True. I'm sure the very people that the police are most interested in are taking precautions about what the keep on mobile phones, and how they use phones. I recollect an article posted on HN some time ago about drug dealers using cheap non-smart phones and a pill pack of 24(?) pre loaded sim cards used in rotation to keep in contact from a different number each day. Its the rest of us that have our stuff found...
  - nodata 12y ago
    > pling: Or you could just stop using the tools that incriminate you? Voting with your feet works pretty well. What a stupid thing to say. Are you seriously suggesting that people "just" opt-out of modern life?
    - pling 12y ago
      Is that modern life? No it's a prescribed vision by a few corporate entities. Modern life isn't dependent on a computer in your hand 24 hours a day. Smart phones are pretty much like cigarettes that don't kill you (well unless you walk in front of a bus whilst checking twitter). Living without them is just as easy as living with them and a whole lot cheaper and without the monkey on your back.
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        It looked like you were calling 'photos' and 'browsing history' things that incriminate you and should be done without. Which is a pretty radical position. If you were just talking about having those on a phone you seem to be missing the point; those things should be off-limits without a warrant, doesn't matter where the personal computer is. Either way the cost/benefit of a phone is not really on topic. But I'm curious how a phone is a 'monkey on your back' when you have no obligation to check or respond to anything. And you can get a nice phone with data service for a lower cost than a solid wired internet connection.
templeos2 12y ago
I've been trying to give the police orders, but they are fucken stupid niggers needing a beating.
walshemj 12y ago
Badly worded title tracking location and meta data is not the same as searching your phone for incriminating evidence.
- danielweber 12y ago
  The title feels link-baity. The headline could say "what the police can get and how they can get it" but that wouldn't have been as clickable.
graycat 12y ago
A question? How does the 'tracking' of the movements and location of a cellphone by the cellphone towers and/or WiFi networks work? Or, The tracking by the towers works all the time so that the cellphone network will know how to send an incoming call to the phone? If so, is there a way to turn off the phone so that it can't receive calls and can't be tracked, noticed, or followed by the towers?
- superuser2 12y ago
  1) Yes, your phone regularly communicates with the nearest cell towers and the phone company can't help but know which one. However, this is imprecise - resolution of a few blocks. 2) Most smartphones have GPS-based location services that use, well GPS, plus the combination of WiFi networks and their signal strengths. To get reasonable speed, this data needs to be cached locally, but only the data for where you've actually been can fit. This is the reason for the huge fallout a couple years ago about "Your iPhone is tracking your movements!" This cache can be read with physical access (and the device's PIN). 3) Yes, turning off the phone will do that. Unless you are a specific target, in which case law enforcement may have issued a software update just for you that makes the phone only appear to shut down. The only way to be sure is to take out the battery or not takke te phone with you.
  - keithpeter 12y ago
    Under your heading 3) I'm just wondering how long it is before someone makes a copper coated metal tin just the right size for each make of smart phone. Just open the lid when you want to make a call or 'sync' with your network of friends. Could be fun if it went viral. Could even have pictures of your favourite politician on the lid, Theresa May for the UK model I imagine.
    - superuser2 12y ago
      >Just open the lid when you want to make a call If it became normal to put your phone in a Faraday cage while not making a call, no one would answer calls, and there would be no point in making them :).
afarrell 12y ago
The police can get access to your cell phone data from the phone directly too. Its just that when they try to present the data as evidence in criminal court, you can prevent that by filing a motion to suppress that evidence. The police won't be punished for the search unless you sue them in civil court. The same thing is true of the NSA, but the NSA never presses criminal charges, so it is only vacuously true.
- talmand 12y ago
  It's not just about cell phone usage, but what data exists on your phone that doesn't leave the phone.

63 points by sinak 12y ago

The two ways mentioned in the article for how they can still do it are: 1) Ask the telco nicely. 2) MITM with things like stingray. #1 can be solved by telcos starting to say no, which might be easier to do now that you can blame it on economic fallout (e.g. Verizon losing the Germany contract). #2 will likely be solved by a successful court challenge by the ACLU. Not hopeless, in my opinion.

danielweber 12y ago
How do either of those get the data stored on the phone?
- diafygi 12y ago
  Presumably, they would sniff traffic coming from your phone, which is what the article is talking about.
- crunchcaptain 12y ago
  Here are some ideas: -QUANTUMINSERT -> SS7 -CANDYMAN -> GOPHERSET -WAP push -Vuln. via specially-crafted SMS/MMS -APN update

alexandros 12y ago

It's important to keep in mind that the phone holds more than location, call logs, and text messages though. It holds our photos, email, apps, the apps' storage, browsing history, and everything we do on the mobile internet. Putting that off limits is definitely a victory.

pling 12y ago
Or you could just stop using the tools that incriminate you? Voting with your feet works pretty well.
- a3n 12y ago
  You could also stop using pen and paper, which will be exposed when a warrant is served.
  - keithpeter 12y ago
    True. I'm sure the very people that the police are most interested in are taking precautions about what the keep on mobile phones, and how they use phones. I recollect an article posted on HN some time ago about drug dealers using cheap non-smart phones and a pill pack of 24(?) pre loaded sim cards used in rotation to keep in contact from a different number each day. Its the rest of us that have our stuff found...
- nodata 12y ago
  > pling: Or you could just stop using the tools that incriminate you? Voting with your feet works pretty well. What a stupid thing to say. Are you seriously suggesting that people "just" opt-out of modern life?
  - pling 12y ago
    Is that modern life? No it's a prescribed vision by a few corporate entities. Modern life isn't dependent on a computer in your hand 24 hours a day. Smart phones are pretty much like cigarettes that don't kill you (well unless you walk in front of a bus whilst checking twitter). Living without them is just as easy as living with them and a whole lot cheaper and without the monkey on your back.
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      It looked like you were calling 'photos' and 'browsing history' things that incriminate you and should be done without. Which is a pretty radical position. If you were just talking about having those on a phone you seem to be missing the point; those things should be off-limits without a warrant, doesn't matter where the personal computer is. Either way the cost/benefit of a phone is not really on topic. But I'm curious how a phone is a 'monkey on your back' when you have no obligation to check or respond to anything. And you can get a nice phone with data service for a lower cost than a solid wired internet connection.

templeos2 12y ago

I've been trying to give the police orders, but they are fucken stupid niggers needing a beating.

walshemj 12y ago

Badly worded title tracking location and meta data is not the same as searching your phone for incriminating evidence.

danielweber 12y ago
The title feels link-baity. The headline could say "what the police can get and how they can get it" but that wouldn't have been as clickable.

graycat 12y ago

A question? How does the 'tracking' of the movements and location of a cellphone by the cellphone towers and/or WiFi networks work? Or, The tracking by the towers works all the time so that the cellphone network will know how to send an incoming call to the phone? If so, is there a way to turn off the phone so that it can't receive calls and can't be tracked, noticed, or followed by the towers?

superuser2 12y ago
1) Yes, your phone regularly communicates with the nearest cell towers and the phone company can't help but know which one. However, this is imprecise - resolution of a few blocks. 2) Most smartphones have GPS-based location services that use, well GPS, plus the combination of WiFi networks and their signal strengths. To get reasonable speed, this data needs to be cached locally, but only the data for where you've actually been can fit. This is the reason for the huge fallout a couple years ago about "Your iPhone is tracking your movements!" This cache can be read with physical access (and the device's PIN). 3) Yes, turning off the phone will do that. Unless you are a specific target, in which case law enforcement may have issued a software update just for you that makes the phone only appear to shut down. The only way to be sure is to take out the battery or not takke te phone with you.
- keithpeter 12y ago
  Under your heading 3) I'm just wondering how long it is before someone makes a copper coated metal tin just the right size for each make of smart phone. Just open the lid when you want to make a call or 'sync' with your network of friends. Could be fun if it went viral. Could even have pictures of your favourite politician on the lid, Theresa May for the UK model I imagine.
  - superuser2 12y ago
    >Just open the lid when you want to make a call If it became normal to put your phone in a Faraday cage while not making a call, no one would answer calls, and there would be no point in making them :).

afarrell 12y ago

The police can get access to your cell phone data from the phone directly too. Its just that when they try to present the data as evidence in criminal court, you can prevent that by filing a motion to suppress that evidence. The police won't be punished for the search unless you sue them in civil court. The same thing is true of the NSA, but the NSA never presses criminal charges, so it is only vacuously true.

talmand 12y ago
It's not just about cell phone usage, but what data exists on your phone that doesn't leave the phone.