13 ms·

Android without the mothership

292 points by oska 12y ago

privong 12y ago
I have been running this setup (Cyanogenmod + f-droid, no google apps) for the past 9 months and have been quite happy. I use owncloud for keeping my calendar, contacts, and files sync'ed. K9mail + APG for (signed/encrypted) email. As the article notes OsmAnd is workable, but the what is available through f-droid is 2 versions behind (apparently with low chance of future updates due to difficulties building it). Many apps are open source (e.g., github, wordpress, coinbase, 2FA apps compatible with many services) and so are available through f-droid. Others, like TextSecure are really easy to build from source and install. I have occasionally downloaded apps through one of the APK downloader services mentioned in the article comments -- I've had mixed luck. Some work flawlessly, others don't work at all without the google apps. It would be awesome to see Mozilla's location service [0] integrated into Cyanogen to replace the google location services (which are of course disabled if you don't install google apps). [0] https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://location.services.mozilla.com/
- iamshs 12y ago
  This is really informative post for separating Android from Google, to the maximum extent for conscientious people. Location, contacts, wifi access points getting shared with Google very much annoys me. But I was even more peeved of Android when there was no way to store contacts locally. No option to store on the phone, but instead you had to save to google account. I am not doing that. So I went the whole hog and installed CyanogenMod and Xprivacy module (the least I could do). And also disabled Google contacts sync (this enables local storage, did not try it on stock android). So I am annoyed that Google is so invasive in gathering data, but also relish such a beautifully designed OS and the flexibility it provides. And also, appreciate the hard work of developers. Android makes so much possible.
  - wutbrodo 12y ago
    > But I was even more peeved of Android when there was no way to store contacts locally. No option to store on the phone, but instead you had to save to Google account. Are you sure about this? This may be unique to Touchwiz or something, but you can save a contact to either the device or to Google contacts.
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      I had the same problem when I got a nexus 5. No way to store contact information locally without disabling google contacts sync. And I only knew to do that by complaining on HN at the time and getting the suggestion.
    - iamshs 12y ago
      I am using Nexus 4, so no touchwiz. Only way (or the one in my knowledge) is to disable Google Contacts Sync. The problem with this one is if the switch somehow gets enabled one day, there goes your privacy.
      - nly 12y ago
        When you disable the backup option on your phone, it warns and asks you to confirm that you want your data to be erased from Googles machines. So there's that. But yes, it's terrifying that millions of home WiFi passwords are stored on Google servers.
        iamshs 12y ago
        No. I did not receive such prompt. The prompt I received was, disabling it can affect other apps. And the two contacts I accidently saved, are still in the gmail account, so there is that. The gmail account was a burner one for the phone.
  - aestra 12y ago
    > No option to store on the phone, but instead you had to save to google account. I am not doing that. I have no problems whatsoever storing contacts on my device...and my friend puts all his on his SIM card.
    - iamshs 12y ago
      I am using Nexus 4 with latest and stock Android version. I am not the unique one with this problem either. http://android.stackexchange.com/questions/24331/add-contact-without-using-google-account http://android.stackexchange.com/questions/24331/add-contact...
  - dublinben 12y ago
    I haven't had this problem, but I literally cannot create a calendar event on my phone without adding a Google account. I can't make just a local calendar event without adding a fake CalDAV account, or hooking up a real one with Owncloud.
- XorNot 12y ago
  I keep looking for a lighterweight alternative to OwnCloud for Calendar/Contacts. I really want to switchover to a proper CardDav/CalDav setup that actually supports "Tasks" in my calendar, exactly how Google doesn't and continually fails to.
  - EvanAnderson 12y ago
    I haven't used with an Android client, but DAViCal has been working well for me for years: http://www.davical.org/ http://www.davical.org/
  - tombrossman 12y ago
    I'm also eager to drop ownCloud ('pwnCloud', I keep hearing), but I think I'll replace it with Seafile + Fastmail's CardDav/CalDav. CardDav is not yet available but promised soon. I wish there were a trustworthy source of prebuilt pure AOSP ROMS, like the source images Google release. Compiling them is no small feat and I'm worried I'll brick my device. With a stock AOSP ROM + Fastmail contacts & calendaring, I think I'll finally have the minimalist install I am looking for.
    - voltagex_ 12y ago
      Did you use GMail before Fastmail? I'm not sure I want to give up push email yet. Do you find that you're missing emails or that IMAP IDLE uses too much battery?
      - daveid 12y ago
        I've used GMail before I switched to Fastmail. Not missing any e-mails, don't notice any excessive battery drain (using K-9 Mail here)
      - tombrossman 12y ago
        I did. I had three GMail accounts, deleted one, moved one to Fastmail, and now use K-9 mail for both the GMail and Fastmail accounts. Performance is great and definitely no issues with battery life or missing emails. Google have recently put their regular email app on the Play Store, so it's possible to keep an apk copy for sideloading if K-9 isn't your preference. My only problem in the past was absolutely horrid syncing and GPS battery drain with Cyanogenmod. I keep going back to try, since first running it on my HTC G1 about 4 years ago. No other ROM gives me trouble, only Cyanogenmod. This is why I'm interested in a 'plain vanilla' as possible AOSP ROM. I'm back on stock 4.4 (rooted) and looking to move back to a non-gapps version soon.
- jlujan 12y ago
  >I have occasionally downloaded apps through one of the APK downloader services mentioned in the article comments -- I've had mixed luck. One of the biggest issue of running Apps (open source or not) is the inclusion of the Play Store API in the app itself. These apps when not logged into the play store usually crash with NullPointerExceptions. Please... if you are an Android developer... expect your third-party services/APIs to be missing or to crash and handle that case... If you include the Map API or several other Google Services APIs in your app and the Play Store is missing or the user does not have a registered account... calls to those services will most likely result in NullPointerExceptions. Tell me to deal with it, don't crash.
  - voltagex_ 12y ago
    I wonder if it's possible to build an emulator image based on CyanogenMod with no Play Services. That'd help with testing the apps, but it's another "device" to target. Developers would be able to see from the crash reports how many NPEs from missing Play Services they're getting and prioritise accordingly.
    - vetinari 12y ago
      Not only it's possible, it is supported out of the box. When you are configuring the emulator, you are choosing the OS version (API level). You have to choose, whether you want "Android" or "Google API".
  - nly 12y ago
    Presumably if developers only distribute their app via the Play Store, they aren't too worried about whether their app users are using the Play Store.
    - jlujan 12y ago
      presumably, as a programmer, you check return values. Especially if they could be a null reference
      - 12y ago
- redacted 12y ago
  There is an ongoing project on XDA (Android ROM/development forum) call NOGAPPS [1], which aims to replace as much of Google's services as possible. I have no idea how far along it is, but there appear to be active users in any case. They have a NetworkLocation replacement which uses Apple's location services, and the dev is planning to add Mozilla Location services in the future. It also replaces Google Maps with OSM. [1] http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1715375 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1715375
- mercurial 12y ago
  I think what I would miss is quality navigation. This, due to my absolutely non-existent sense of direction, is a major reason for why I purchased a cell phone in the first place. I tried a few non-Google navigation systems but didn't really find anything compelling.
- mbq 12y ago
  Isn't TextSecure already built into Cyanogen SMS app? And anyway dependent on the Google Play Services?
  - aw3c2 12y ago
    TextSecure uses Google's push service because there is no viable alternative available.
    - mbq 12y ago
      Than, what's the point of using a secure communication app if you must also install a spying rootkit to make it work? For me it makes the whole TS not viable.
      - solstice 12y ago
        seems that they are trying to replace Google's push API with a websocket-based solution. See https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/1106 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/1106
      - glogla 12y ago
        Sadly, the author of TextSecure doesn't think so. He thinks side-loading of apps and alternate app stores are a problem (he says that allowing installs that don't come from Play store is "returning to desktop security model which is completely broken" [1]). He also opposes TextSecure being on f-droid, etc. [1]: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/127 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/127
      - motters 12y ago
        I'm also running CyanogenMod without the mothership, and that's exactly what I thought. While apps such as TextSecure appear to have a good reputation needing to install probably backdoored proprietary software to obtain them seems to defeat the objective.
      - aw3c2 12y ago
        Please see http://support.whispersystems.org/customer/portal/articles/1476204-why-do-i-need-google-play-installed-to-use-textsecure-on-android- http://support.whispersystems.org/customer/portal/articles/1... If you can suggest viable alternatives, I am certain that the team would love to drop Google from it.
- ce4 12y ago
  Regarding OsmAnd: You can download free fully-featured releases on the project's site as well [1] (and you may consider a PayPal donation instead of paying via the Play Store then [2]). [1]: http://download.osmand.net/releases/ http://download.osmand.net/releases/ [2]: https://code.google.com/p/osmand/ https://code.google.com/p/osmand/
zmmmmm 12y ago
I am wondering how long it is before we see an effort to do to Google Play Services what Google did to Java - copy all the APIs and create an independent alternative that lets you build apps that use features from Play Services, without tying your app to Google. Ideally one can then choose what to do from just stubbing them out, filling them with 3rd party alternatives, or providing custom implementations. I would think a nice collaboration between Amazon, Microsoft, some Chinese players and maybe even Yahoo could do quite a nice job of this.
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- aikah 12y ago
  EDIT : wanted to update my message but deleted it!pasting it here : the value of Android,for most people, is in Google services... not in Linux.People dont care what os android is running,the fact that it is Linux is irrelevant for them,(but not for google). > copy all the APIs and create an independent alternative that lets you build apps that use features from Play Services, without tying your app to Google. Ideally one can then choose what to do from just stubbing them out, filling them with 3rd party alternatives, or providing custom implementations. And who's going to copy all that,for you,for free? > I would think a nice collaboration between Amazon, Microsoft, some Chinese players and maybe even Yahoo could do quite a nice job of this. And now you want to depend on Amazon and Microsoft and Yahoo,is that your vision of independence? And why Amazon or Microsoft would do that when they are pushing for their own closed mobile plateform? Your message is basically "someone do something",not understanding what the success of the plateform is about : Google Services.And then you are calling to players that are even worse offenders than Google when it comes to closed plateforms. What you say makes no sense. You cant run all the services Google provides for free , with no string attached ,it cannot work. And that's why mobile oses that dont provide these kind of services will flop,all of them,because people now feel entitled to get them for free.
msoad 12y ago
It's getting harder and harder to not give up your privacy in order to use new technology. Android without all that Google goodness is a hard sell to an average customer today.
- yuhong 12y ago
  Does an average consumer have good reason to not use them though?
  - mike_hearn 12y ago
    Probably not. The article does admit this in fairness. It says the primary reasons you might want to do this are not trusting Google (but most people have had pretty reasonable experiences with them, especially considering the price), concern over a future management change (a very real concern but one that's very distant and hard to anticipate at the moment), and concern over governments and criminal enterprises. Governments, it seems, take what they want anyway regardless of whether you use Google or not.
gudness 12y ago
I used to run without any google play services and running pure aosp. I stopped because Android is just so much better with google and fuck it, who cares about me any ways. Not to mention compiling aosp is a pain. Like seriously, no swyping in aosp keyboard? so i install google keyboard, then i might as well have everything. one piece of proprietary software from google, might as well go all the way. Though i still get most of my apps from f-droid and will use an open source alternative if its as good or better. example: i prefer cyanogenmod gallery to google+ and vlc to google music, poweramp
- gohrt 12y ago
  There are other (non-google) swipe keyboards.
  - a3_nm 12y ago
    Is there a good open-source swipe keyboard available in F-Droid? I couldn't find one.
- kuschku 12y ago
  I think OMNIRom has an open source swipe keyboard, I compiled everything from source and it worked with swiping, so I guess there's that.
mkozlows 12y ago
It seems notable that trying to run a modern computer without Google is about as quixotic as was trying to run a '90s-era computer without Microsoft.
- psbp 12y ago
  Apple seems to have done fine in both examples.
  - zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
    Apple almost went bankrupt and had to be rescued by Microsoft during that period.
    - deleted 12y ago
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- zurn 12y ago
  PCs were for boring suit types in the 90s. Windows 3.1, ugh. Lots of people ran Amigas or Macs at home and RISC workstations at university or work. Then Linux happened and you could run something nice even on a PC. It involved tinkering but advancing by leaps and bounds, certainly not quixotic.
  - joenathan 12y ago
    You forgot to turn off your hipster vision.
    - deleted 12y ago
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  - zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
    Running something nice on Linux is still challenging today, in 2014. It was no picnic in the 90's. Credentials: I was running Linux before Linux was cool, it was called Minix.
deleted 12y ago
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jcr 12y ago
It's a good article. Those who prefer to have their phones disconnected from Google for whatever reason at least have some options to limit exposure, but unfortunately, preventing the mobile web browser in the phone from leaking information like location, history, and habits to Google (and plenty of others) is going to be really tough. Also, the article glossed over an important issue; the need to use closed-source proprietary binary blob drivers to make the hardware usable. With drivers running in kernel space, the potential damage of an intentionally or unintentionally bad driver is pretty much unlimited. The most problematic drivers are usually the graphics drivers due to complexity and their impact on both system and battery performance. Since the companies making the graphics chips (well, they're often just graphics cores within the main processor IC rather than separate chips) like nVidia, Qualcomm, Arm Inc (mali), and Broadcom (to a lesser degree lately) refuse to release the documentation necessary for open source hackers to write drivers, tons of unnecessary effort is wasted in attempts to reverse engineer the binary blob drivers so open source drivers can be written. There are quite a few efforts under way to produce open source drivers for various graphics "chips" on various types of ARM systems. Here are a few links I've collected: http://freedreno.github.io/ http://freedreno.github.io/ http://bloggingthemonkey.blogspot.com/ http://bloggingthemonkey.blogspot.com/ http://limadriver.org/ http://limadriver.org/ https://gitorious.org/lima https://gitorious.org/lima https://github.com/grate-driver/grate/wiki https://github.com/grate-driver/grate/wiki https://github.com/laanwj/etna_viv/wiki https://github.com/laanwj/etna_viv/wiki http://www.raspberrypi.org/a-birthday-present-from-broadcom/ http://www.raspberrypi.org/a-birthday-present-from-broadcom/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7320828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7320828 I haven't seen anyone succeed in making a fully open source blob-free phone yet, but people are working towards that goal. Unfortunately, even if open source devs eventually solve all of the blob driver (and chip documentation!) problems, there will still be an unknown, untested, and unaudited chunk of code running on phones that cannot be legally altered; it's the baseband processor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseband_processor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseband_processor Since the baseband processor controls the radio(s), it's actually against the law (FCC in the US) to modify the broadcast/receive power levels or frequencies. As such, each baseband processor has to be tested and certified by the FCC, and any change means it has to be tested and recertified again.
- 12y ago
contingencies 12y ago
If you value privacy and freedom on your mobile devices, please consider supporting FirefoxOS and voting / rah-rahing over here for ad-hoc wifi and a networking / permissions overhaul to support arbitrary link-layers and granular connectivity. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945047 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945047
ForHackernews 12y ago
If this is something Hacker News users value, please consider contributing development time (or money) to the Replicant Project http://www.replicant.us/ http://www.replicant.us/
- kevinflo 12y ago
  Seems like an awesome project, but at first visit to that site I had absolutely no idea what replicant was. If you're involved with the project or that site, it might be helpful to put a short (one sentence) description of what replicant is somewhere on the front page. Also, sorry if it is there and I'm just missing it.
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    I'm just a supporter, and I have no control over that page. But FWIW, I absolutely agree, they need a concise "About Replicant" section. Sadly, good communication for newbies and outsiders has never been the Free Software movement's strong suit.
  - hackmiester 12y ago
    I completely agree, I had to go to Wikipedia to figure it out.
rohith_14_04 12y ago
I guess Nokia X series comes without Google goodies
- sirkneeland 12y ago
  True, but it does come instead with Microsoft goodies (and HERE maps, which are still owned by the part of Nokia that Microsoft didn't buy). Depending on your personal preferences (re: service quality, privacy etc) Microsoft cloud services may be an improvement over Google, they may be no different, or they may be worse.
EdwardDiego 12y ago
I'd also rate Opera Mini as an alternate web browser... if you can install it sans Play Store.
- ZeroGravitas 12y ago
  I guess you can a) because its the new default browser on Nokia X devices, and b) Opera have their own Android app store: http://apps.opera.com/en_gb/opera_mini_51.html http://apps.opera.com/en_gb/opera_mini_51.html
- nly 12y ago
  Not open source.
  - EdwardDiego 12y ago
    Not Chrome either, wasn't sure what the criteria was.
ausjke 12y ago
As always, LWN publishes great articles, a proud subscriber here. Android is used in more and more fields other than phones and tablets these days, in those fields Google service is deemed not helpful, and totally unneeded. A working AoSP plus a few specialized apps will do that job perfectly well. I hope Cranogenmod will provide a viable approach in that space(non-phone and non-tablet market segment)
deleted 12y ago
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maryjbland 12y ago
up to I looked at the paycheck which said $7050 , I be certain that my best friend could truley taking home money part time from their laptop. . there sisters roommate has been doing this for under 7 months and recently repaid the loans on there mini mansion and got a top of the range Mazda . Get More Info ..>>> http://www.bay92.com http://www.bay92.com
maryjbland 12y ago
up to I looked at the paycheck which said $7050 , I be certain that my best friend could truley taking home money part time from their laptop. . there sisters roommate has been doing this for under 7 months and recently repaid the loans on there mini mansion and got a top of the range Mazda . Get More Info ..>>> http://www.bay92.com http://www.bay92.com
blueskin_ 12y ago
This is why I use CyanogenMod. I have installed the Play Store, but not all the other crap that comes bundled in gapps, and I use XPrivacy to restrict its access to my data.
unabridged 12y ago
Android is a lost cause, all the man power being donated to the project is just going to line google's pockets and lock us further into closed hardware and barely opensource phones. The only future is a real linux phone, debian or ubuntu mobile, where one day there will be effortless desktop/tablet/mobile unified development. Why push for developers to waste time porting between c++ and java?
- euank 12y ago
  Why no mention of FirefoxOS? The Mozilla foundation has our best interests at heart much more than Google and while it's not C++, html5/javascript is certainly an open enough platform which basically everything has started to target anyways. Sure, a pure linux phone would be cool in some ways, but FirefoxOS seems much closer, realer, and every bit as awesome.
  - unabridged 12y ago
    FirefoxOS is definitely a step forward and I'd love to see it overtake Android, but its only a half measure. The problem is a phone does not need to be an operating system, it would be fine as just a program/desktop environment running on linux. A phone is not a special case, there are plenty of mission critical applications that run on top of linux without having to resort to building a whole new OS.
    - diafygi 12y ago
      Ummm, that's exactly what Firefox OS is. It's the Firefox engine (gecko) sitting on top of the linux kernel.
      - pessimizer 12y ago
        What unabriged means is that you don't need an entire reimplementation of the underlying OS to make calls, all you need is an Linux app that makes calls. The purpose of reimplementation is generally to screw consumers. There's nothing special about a phone that requires you to put everything into a VM. I don't know why firefox is doing it. I did order a development phone, though, because if it takes off, I want a share:)
dotnick 12y ago
> ... CyanogenMod is free; it is mostly a build of the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) release with a bunch of added goodies. Google's proprietary user-space apps and utilities are available, but they must be downloaded and installed separately. Interesting. Isn't this against any Google terms?
- dublinben 12y ago
  The Google Apps are no longer distributed directly with CM and other ROMs, which seems to have satisfied Google. They've reached an unofficial agreement to let users flash their own GApps package, as long as it's distributed by itself. It's really not in Google's interest to prevent users from putting GApps back on their devices.
zokier 12y ago
I'd be more interested in the reverse; getting the "mothership" (ie first-class Google services) without Googles platform. I just generally dislike Android and would love to see something that allows running Android apps smoothly and transparently on a GNUish/POSIXy system, especially on mobile devices. Haven't tried Jolla/SailfishOS yet, maybe it delivers on that front. Last time I noticed this "disconnect" was when I looked into running TextSecure on my desktop. Sadly it seems that there isn't really any good way of doing that (yet). I'd imagine that these days you could whip something up with LXC and Android-x86, but it would obviously need some effort to make it really smooth experience.
mellisarob 12y ago
this would just kill the pace of growth.
miguelrochefort 12y ago
There should be a name for this privacy craze. It's one of the rare instance where people can act completely irrationally (to the point of paranoia), and people will accept it as completely normal and expected. I hope you realize how silly all of this will sound 20 years from now.
- josephlord 12y ago
  There should be a name for this absolute trust in corporations to manage intimate personal details of all sorts on out behalf. It's one of the rare instances where people can act as corporations of thousands of people will act in their long term interest and continue to do so indefinitely into the future with no oversight or transparency into their actions. I hope you realize how silly all of this will sound 20 years from now. Edit: This is obviously a parody of the parent comment. It doesn't absolutely reflect my views but I feel it is at least as valid a view as the parent. I do sometimes trust in certain places but I'm often uncomfortable and Google is one of the last companies I want to trust with massive amounts of personal information.
  - miguelrochefort 12y ago
    I don't trust them, nor anyone, to keep any "intimate personal details" (whatever that means) secret. But that's not the point. I don't give them access to information to keep it secure. They shouldn't even need permission to access it. I share information with the world to make it a better place. There's no point in living in the dark. To keep information for yourself is selfish. To expect that others will keep it secret for you is foolish. I'm in favor of complete transparency, and I do not favor individuals or corporations in that matter.
    - josephlord 12y ago
      If you are carrying a Google phone and using the Google systems you are giving them access to where you are going, where you have been, who you have met, who you know. All these can be intimate personal details at times. They may provide information about health, sexual partners and activity. They can also reveal journalistic sources and high level company meetings that might give rise to insider trading. Is this all information that should in your view be completely transparent.
Zigurd 12y ago
CyanogenMod is now much more relevant to open source computing than Ubuntu, and the popular consumer-oriented face of Linux. But I'm not sure that either the developers of CyanogenMod or the business-minded people have a firm idea of what CyanogenMod should be or can be. They have the advantage that, unlike Ubuntu, they are born with a good shot at doing a remunerative business in integrations for OEMs. The question is, is there a business in doing alternative ecosystem integrations, and are any of those alternative ecosystems free and open.
atoponce 12y ago
I just recently discovered this setup. I've been running Cyanogenmod for a few years, but was always under the impression I needed Google to use my phone, such as making calls. After my most recent install, I decided to go with F-Droid rather than with Google Play, and realized I could live entirely Google-free with zero effort. Apps in F-Droid have been lacking, and there are some FOSS apps in Google Play that are not in F-Droid, which is unfortunate. However, I have had a pleasant experience living Google- and proprietary-free on my Android phone. Really, the only thing I miss is Maps.
dang 12y ago
This article has received an extraordinary number of user flags, and I can't tell why. It relates to some controversial questions, of course, but is there anything terrible about it?
- deleted 12y ago
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wldcordeiro 12y ago
This website needs a visual reboot, it's so ugly.
quadrangle 12y ago
For those who are into this, consider OmniROM instead of Cyanogenmod
rashid1234 12y ago
Hello every one!!!! Please visit this site www.eocean.pk

292 points by oska 12y ago

I have been running this setup (Cyanogenmod + f-droid, no google apps) for the past 9 months and have been quite happy. I use owncloud for keeping my calendar, contacts, and files sync'ed. K9mail + APG for (signed/encrypted) email. As the article notes OsmAnd is workable, but the what is available through f-droid is 2 versions behind (apparently with low chance of future updates due to difficulties building it). Many apps are open source (e.g., github, wordpress, coinbase, 2FA apps compatible with many services) and so are available through f-droid. Others, like TextSecure are really easy to build from source and install. I have occasionally downloaded apps through one of the APK downloader services mentioned in the article comments -- I've had mixed luck. Some work flawlessly, others don't work at all without the google apps. It would be awesome to see Mozilla's location service [0] integrated into Cyanogen to replace the google location services (which are of course disabled if you don't install google apps). [0] https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://location.services.mozilla.com/

iamshs 12y ago
This is really informative post for separating Android from Google, to the maximum extent for conscientious people. Location, contacts, wifi access points getting shared with Google very much annoys me. But I was even more peeved of Android when there was no way to store contacts locally. No option to store on the phone, but instead you had to save to google account. I am not doing that. So I went the whole hog and installed CyanogenMod and Xprivacy module (the least I could do). And also disabled Google contacts sync (this enables local storage, did not try it on stock android). So I am annoyed that Google is so invasive in gathering data, but also relish such a beautifully designed OS and the flexibility it provides. And also, appreciate the hard work of developers. Android makes so much possible.
- wutbrodo 12y ago
  > But I was even more peeved of Android when there was no way to store contacts locally. No option to store on the phone, but instead you had to save to Google account. Are you sure about this? This may be unique to Touchwiz or something, but you can save a contact to either the device or to Google contacts.
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    I had the same problem when I got a nexus 5. No way to store contact information locally without disabling google contacts sync. And I only knew to do that by complaining on HN at the time and getting the suggestion.
  - iamshs 12y ago
    I am using Nexus 4, so no touchwiz. Only way (or the one in my knowledge) is to disable Google Contacts Sync. The problem with this one is if the switch somehow gets enabled one day, there goes your privacy.
    - nly 12y ago
      When you disable the backup option on your phone, it warns and asks you to confirm that you want your data to be erased from Googles machines. So there's that. But yes, it's terrifying that millions of home WiFi passwords are stored on Google servers.
      - iamshs 12y ago
        No. I did not receive such prompt. The prompt I received was, disabling it can affect other apps. And the two contacts I accidently saved, are still in the gmail account, so there is that. The gmail account was a burner one for the phone.
- aestra 12y ago
  > No option to store on the phone, but instead you had to save to google account. I am not doing that. I have no problems whatsoever storing contacts on my device...and my friend puts all his on his SIM card.
  - iamshs 12y ago
    I am using Nexus 4 with latest and stock Android version. I am not the unique one with this problem either. http://android.stackexchange.com/questions/24331/add-contact-without-using-google-account http://android.stackexchange.com/questions/24331/add-contact...
- dublinben 12y ago
  I haven't had this problem, but I literally cannot create a calendar event on my phone without adding a Google account. I can't make just a local calendar event without adding a fake CalDAV account, or hooking up a real one with Owncloud.
XorNot 12y ago
I keep looking for a lighterweight alternative to OwnCloud for Calendar/Contacts. I really want to switchover to a proper CardDav/CalDav setup that actually supports "Tasks" in my calendar, exactly how Google doesn't and continually fails to.
- EvanAnderson 12y ago
  I haven't used with an Android client, but DAViCal has been working well for me for years: http://www.davical.org/ http://www.davical.org/
- tombrossman 12y ago
  I'm also eager to drop ownCloud ('pwnCloud', I keep hearing), but I think I'll replace it with Seafile + Fastmail's CardDav/CalDav. CardDav is not yet available but promised soon. I wish there were a trustworthy source of prebuilt pure AOSP ROMS, like the source images Google release. Compiling them is no small feat and I'm worried I'll brick my device. With a stock AOSP ROM + Fastmail contacts & calendaring, I think I'll finally have the minimalist install I am looking for.
  - voltagex_ 12y ago
    Did you use GMail before Fastmail? I'm not sure I want to give up push email yet. Do you find that you're missing emails or that IMAP IDLE uses too much battery?
    - daveid 12y ago
      I've used GMail before I switched to Fastmail. Not missing any e-mails, don't notice any excessive battery drain (using K-9 Mail here)
    - tombrossman 12y ago
      I did. I had three GMail accounts, deleted one, moved one to Fastmail, and now use K-9 mail for both the GMail and Fastmail accounts. Performance is great and definitely no issues with battery life or missing emails. Google have recently put their regular email app on the Play Store, so it's possible to keep an apk copy for sideloading if K-9 isn't your preference. My only problem in the past was absolutely horrid syncing and GPS battery drain with Cyanogenmod. I keep going back to try, since first running it on my HTC G1 about 4 years ago. No other ROM gives me trouble, only Cyanogenmod. This is why I'm interested in a 'plain vanilla' as possible AOSP ROM. I'm back on stock 4.4 (rooted) and looking to move back to a non-gapps version soon.
jlujan 12y ago
>I have occasionally downloaded apps through one of the APK downloader services mentioned in the article comments -- I've had mixed luck. One of the biggest issue of running Apps (open source or not) is the inclusion of the Play Store API in the app itself. These apps when not logged into the play store usually crash with NullPointerExceptions. Please... if you are an Android developer... expect your third-party services/APIs to be missing or to crash and handle that case... If you include the Map API or several other Google Services APIs in your app and the Play Store is missing or the user does not have a registered account... calls to those services will most likely result in NullPointerExceptions. Tell me to deal with it, don't crash.
- voltagex_ 12y ago
  I wonder if it's possible to build an emulator image based on CyanogenMod with no Play Services. That'd help with testing the apps, but it's another "device" to target. Developers would be able to see from the crash reports how many NPEs from missing Play Services they're getting and prioritise accordingly.
  - vetinari 12y ago
    Not only it's possible, it is supported out of the box. When you are configuring the emulator, you are choosing the OS version (API level). You have to choose, whether you want "Android" or "Google API".
- nly 12y ago
  Presumably if developers only distribute their app via the Play Store, they aren't too worried about whether their app users are using the Play Store.
  - jlujan 12y ago
    presumably, as a programmer, you check return values. Especially if they could be a null reference
    - 12y ago
redacted 12y ago
There is an ongoing project on XDA (Android ROM/development forum) call NOGAPPS [1], which aims to replace as much of Google's services as possible. I have no idea how far along it is, but there appear to be active users in any case. They have a NetworkLocation replacement which uses Apple's location services, and the dev is planning to add Mozilla Location services in the future. It also replaces Google Maps with OSM. [1] http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1715375 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1715375
mercurial 12y ago
I think what I would miss is quality navigation. This, due to my absolutely non-existent sense of direction, is a major reason for why I purchased a cell phone in the first place. I tried a few non-Google navigation systems but didn't really find anything compelling.
mbq 12y ago
Isn't TextSecure already built into Cyanogen SMS app? And anyway dependent on the Google Play Services?
- aw3c2 12y ago
  TextSecure uses Google's push service because there is no viable alternative available.
  - mbq 12y ago
    Than, what's the point of using a secure communication app if you must also install a spying rootkit to make it work? For me it makes the whole TS not viable.
    - solstice 12y ago
      seems that they are trying to replace Google's push API with a websocket-based solution. See https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/1106 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/1106
    - glogla 12y ago
      Sadly, the author of TextSecure doesn't think so. He thinks side-loading of apps and alternate app stores are a problem (he says that allowing installs that don't come from Play store is "returning to desktop security model which is completely broken" [1]). He also opposes TextSecure being on f-droid, etc. [1]: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/127 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/127
    - motters 12y ago
      I'm also running CyanogenMod without the mothership, and that's exactly what I thought. While apps such as TextSecure appear to have a good reputation needing to install probably backdoored proprietary software to obtain them seems to defeat the objective.
    - aw3c2 12y ago
      Please see http://support.whispersystems.org/customer/portal/articles/1476204-why-do-i-need-google-play-installed-to-use-textsecure-on-android- http://support.whispersystems.org/customer/portal/articles/1... If you can suggest viable alternatives, I am certain that the team would love to drop Google from it.
ce4 12y ago
Regarding OsmAnd: You can download free fully-featured releases on the project's site as well [1] (and you may consider a PayPal donation instead of paying via the Play Store then [2]). [1]: http://download.osmand.net/releases/ http://download.osmand.net/releases/ [2]: https://code.google.com/p/osmand/ https://code.google.com/p/osmand/

zmmmmm 12y ago

I am wondering how long it is before we see an effort to do to Google Play Services what Google did to Java - copy all the APIs and create an independent alternative that lets you build apps that use features from Play Services, without tying your app to Google. Ideally one can then choose what to do from just stubbing them out, filling them with 3rd party alternatives, or providing custom implementations. I would think a nice collaboration between Amazon, Microsoft, some Chinese players and maybe even Yahoo could do quite a nice job of this.

deleted 12y ago
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- deleted 12y ago
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aikah 12y ago
EDIT : wanted to update my message but deleted it!pasting it here : the value of Android,for most people, is in Google services... not in Linux.People dont care what os android is running,the fact that it is Linux is irrelevant for them,(but not for google). > copy all the APIs and create an independent alternative that lets you build apps that use features from Play Services, without tying your app to Google. Ideally one can then choose what to do from just stubbing them out, filling them with 3rd party alternatives, or providing custom implementations. And who's going to copy all that,for you,for free? > I would think a nice collaboration between Amazon, Microsoft, some Chinese players and maybe even Yahoo could do quite a nice job of this. And now you want to depend on Amazon and Microsoft and Yahoo,is that your vision of independence? And why Amazon or Microsoft would do that when they are pushing for their own closed mobile plateform? Your message is basically "someone do something",not understanding what the success of the plateform is about : Google Services.And then you are calling to players that are even worse offenders than Google when it comes to closed plateforms. What you say makes no sense. You cant run all the services Google provides for free , with no string attached ,it cannot work. And that's why mobile oses that dont provide these kind of services will flop,all of them,because people now feel entitled to get them for free.

msoad 12y ago

It's getting harder and harder to not give up your privacy in order to use new technology. Android without all that Google goodness is a hard sell to an average customer today.

yuhong 12y ago
Does an average consumer have good reason to not use them though?
- mike_hearn 12y ago
  Probably not. The article does admit this in fairness. It says the primary reasons you might want to do this are not trusting Google (but most people have had pretty reasonable experiences with them, especially considering the price), concern over a future management change (a very real concern but one that's very distant and hard to anticipate at the moment), and concern over governments and criminal enterprises. Governments, it seems, take what they want anyway regardless of whether you use Google or not.

gudness 12y ago

I used to run without any google play services and running pure aosp. I stopped because Android is just so much better with google and fuck it, who cares about me any ways. Not to mention compiling aosp is a pain. Like seriously, no swyping in aosp keyboard? so i install google keyboard, then i might as well have everything. one piece of proprietary software from google, might as well go all the way. Though i still get most of my apps from f-droid and will use an open source alternative if its as good or better. example: i prefer cyanogenmod gallery to google+ and vlc to google music, poweramp

gohrt 12y ago
There are other (non-google) swipe keyboards.
- a3_nm 12y ago
  Is there a good open-source swipe keyboard available in F-Droid? I couldn't find one.
kuschku 12y ago
I think OMNIRom has an open source swipe keyboard, I compiled everything from source and it worked with swiping, so I guess there's that.

mkozlows 12y ago

It seems notable that trying to run a modern computer without Google is about as quixotic as was trying to run a '90s-era computer without Microsoft.

psbp 12y ago
Apple seems to have done fine in both examples.
- zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
  Apple almost went bankrupt and had to be rescued by Microsoft during that period.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
zurn 12y ago
PCs were for boring suit types in the 90s. Windows 3.1, ugh. Lots of people ran Amigas or Macs at home and RISC workstations at university or work. Then Linux happened and you could run something nice even on a PC. It involved tinkering but advancing by leaps and bounds, certainly not quixotic.
- joenathan 12y ago
  You forgot to turn off your hipster vision.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
  Running something nice on Linux is still challenging today, in 2014. It was no picnic in the 90's. Credentials: I was running Linux before Linux was cool, it was called Minix.

deleted 12y ago

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jcr 12y ago

It's a good article. Those who prefer to have their phones disconnected from Google for whatever reason at least have some options to limit exposure, but unfortunately, preventing the mobile web browser in the phone from leaking information like location, history, and habits to Google (and plenty of others) is going to be really tough. Also, the article glossed over an important issue; the need to use closed-source proprietary binary blob drivers to make the hardware usable. With drivers running in kernel space, the potential damage of an intentionally or unintentionally bad driver is pretty much unlimited. The most problematic drivers are usually the graphics drivers due to complexity and their impact on both system and battery performance. Since the companies making the graphics chips (well, they're often just graphics cores within the main processor IC rather than separate chips) like nVidia, Qualcomm, Arm Inc (mali), and Broadcom (to a lesser degree lately) refuse to release the documentation necessary for open source hackers to write drivers, tons of unnecessary effort is wasted in attempts to reverse engineer the binary blob drivers so open source drivers can be written. There are quite a few efforts under way to produce open source drivers for various graphics "chips" on various types of ARM systems. Here are a few links I've collected: http://freedreno.github.io/ http://freedreno.github.io/ http://bloggingthemonkey.blogspot.com/ http://bloggingthemonkey.blogspot.com/ http://limadriver.org/ http://limadriver.org/ https://gitorious.org/lima https://gitorious.org/lima https://github.com/grate-driver/grate/wiki https://github.com/grate-driver/grate/wiki https://github.com/laanwj/etna_viv/wiki https://github.com/laanwj/etna_viv/wiki http://www.raspberrypi.org/a-birthday-present-from-broadcom/ http://www.raspberrypi.org/a-birthday-present-from-broadcom/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7320828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7320828 I haven't seen anyone succeed in making a fully open source blob-free phone yet, but people are working towards that goal. Unfortunately, even if open source devs eventually solve all of the blob driver (and chip documentation!) problems, there will still be an unknown, untested, and unaudited chunk of code running on phones that cannot be legally altered; it's the baseband processor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseband_processor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseband_processor Since the baseband processor controls the radio(s), it's actually against the law (FCC in the US) to modify the broadcast/receive power levels or frequencies. As such, each baseband processor has to be tested and certified by the FCC, and any change means it has to be tested and recertified again.

12y ago

contingencies 12y ago

If you value privacy and freedom on your mobile devices, please consider supporting FirefoxOS and voting / rah-rahing over here for ad-hoc wifi and a networking / permissions overhaul to support arbitrary link-layers and granular connectivity. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945047 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945047

ForHackernews 12y ago

If this is something Hacker News users value, please consider contributing development time (or money) to the Replicant Project http://www.replicant.us/ http://www.replicant.us/

kevinflo 12y ago
Seems like an awesome project, but at first visit to that site I had absolutely no idea what replicant was. If you're involved with the project or that site, it might be helpful to put a short (one sentence) description of what replicant is somewhere on the front page. Also, sorry if it is there and I'm just missing it.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  I'm just a supporter, and I have no control over that page. But FWIW, I absolutely agree, they need a concise "About Replicant" section. Sadly, good communication for newbies and outsiders has never been the Free Software movement's strong suit.
- hackmiester 12y ago
  I completely agree, I had to go to Wikipedia to figure it out.

rohith_14_04 12y ago

I guess Nokia X series comes without Google goodies

sirkneeland 12y ago
True, but it does come instead with Microsoft goodies (and HERE maps, which are still owned by the part of Nokia that Microsoft didn't buy). Depending on your personal preferences (re: service quality, privacy etc) Microsoft cloud services may be an improvement over Google, they may be no different, or they may be worse.

EdwardDiego 12y ago

I'd also rate Opera Mini as an alternate web browser... if you can install it sans Play Store.

ZeroGravitas 12y ago
I guess you can a) because its the new default browser on Nokia X devices, and b) Opera have their own Android app store: http://apps.opera.com/en_gb/opera_mini_51.html http://apps.opera.com/en_gb/opera_mini_51.html
nly 12y ago
Not open source.
- EdwardDiego 12y ago
  Not Chrome either, wasn't sure what the criteria was.

ausjke 12y ago

As always, LWN publishes great articles, a proud subscriber here. Android is used in more and more fields other than phones and tablets these days, in those fields Google service is deemed not helpful, and totally unneeded. A working AoSP plus a few specialized apps will do that job perfectly well. I hope Cranogenmod will provide a viable approach in that space(non-phone and non-tablet market segment)

deleted 12y ago

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maryjbland 12y ago

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maryjbland 12y ago

blueskin_ 12y ago

This is why I use CyanogenMod. I have installed the Play Store, but not all the other crap that comes bundled in gapps, and I use XPrivacy to restrict its access to my data.

unabridged 12y ago

Android is a lost cause, all the man power being donated to the project is just going to line google's pockets and lock us further into closed hardware and barely opensource phones. The only future is a real linux phone, debian or ubuntu mobile, where one day there will be effortless desktop/tablet/mobile unified development. Why push for developers to waste time porting between c++ and java?

euank 12y ago
Why no mention of FirefoxOS? The Mozilla foundation has our best interests at heart much more than Google and while it's not C++, html5/javascript is certainly an open enough platform which basically everything has started to target anyways. Sure, a pure linux phone would be cool in some ways, but FirefoxOS seems much closer, realer, and every bit as awesome.
- unabridged 12y ago
  FirefoxOS is definitely a step forward and I'd love to see it overtake Android, but its only a half measure. The problem is a phone does not need to be an operating system, it would be fine as just a program/desktop environment running on linux. A phone is not a special case, there are plenty of mission critical applications that run on top of linux without having to resort to building a whole new OS.
  - diafygi 12y ago
    Ummm, that's exactly what Firefox OS is. It's the Firefox engine (gecko) sitting on top of the linux kernel.
    - pessimizer 12y ago
      What unabriged means is that you don't need an entire reimplementation of the underlying OS to make calls, all you need is an Linux app that makes calls. The purpose of reimplementation is generally to screw consumers. There's nothing special about a phone that requires you to put everything into a VM. I don't know why firefox is doing it. I did order a development phone, though, because if it takes off, I want a share:)

dotnick 12y ago

> ... CyanogenMod is free; it is mostly a build of the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) release with a bunch of added goodies. Google's proprietary user-space apps and utilities are available, but they must be downloaded and installed separately. Interesting. Isn't this against any Google terms?

dublinben 12y ago
The Google Apps are no longer distributed directly with CM and other ROMs, which seems to have satisfied Google. They've reached an unofficial agreement to let users flash their own GApps package, as long as it's distributed by itself. It's really not in Google's interest to prevent users from putting GApps back on their devices.

zokier 12y ago

I'd be more interested in the reverse; getting the "mothership" (ie first-class Google services) without Googles platform. I just generally dislike Android and would love to see something that allows running Android apps smoothly and transparently on a GNUish/POSIXy system, especially on mobile devices. Haven't tried Jolla/SailfishOS yet, maybe it delivers on that front. Last time I noticed this "disconnect" was when I looked into running TextSecure on my desktop. Sadly it seems that there isn't really any good way of doing that (yet). I'd imagine that these days you could whip something up with LXC and Android-x86, but it would obviously need some effort to make it really smooth experience.

mellisarob 12y ago

this would just kill the pace of growth.

miguelrochefort 12y ago

There should be a name for this privacy craze. It's one of the rare instance where people can act completely irrationally (to the point of paranoia), and people will accept it as completely normal and expected. I hope you realize how silly all of this will sound 20 years from now.

josephlord 12y ago
There should be a name for this absolute trust in corporations to manage intimate personal details of all sorts on out behalf. It's one of the rare instances where people can act as corporations of thousands of people will act in their long term interest and continue to do so indefinitely into the future with no oversight or transparency into their actions. I hope you realize how silly all of this will sound 20 years from now. Edit: This is obviously a parody of the parent comment. It doesn't absolutely reflect my views but I feel it is at least as valid a view as the parent. I do sometimes trust in certain places but I'm often uncomfortable and Google is one of the last companies I want to trust with massive amounts of personal information.
- miguelrochefort 12y ago
  I don't trust them, nor anyone, to keep any "intimate personal details" (whatever that means) secret. But that's not the point. I don't give them access to information to keep it secure. They shouldn't even need permission to access it. I share information with the world to make it a better place. There's no point in living in the dark. To keep information for yourself is selfish. To expect that others will keep it secret for you is foolish. I'm in favor of complete transparency, and I do not favor individuals or corporations in that matter.
  - josephlord 12y ago
    If you are carrying a Google phone and using the Google systems you are giving them access to where you are going, where you have been, who you have met, who you know. All these can be intimate personal details at times. They may provide information about health, sexual partners and activity. They can also reveal journalistic sources and high level company meetings that might give rise to insider trading. Is this all information that should in your view be completely transparent.

Zigurd 12y ago

CyanogenMod is now much more relevant to open source computing than Ubuntu, and the popular consumer-oriented face of Linux. But I'm not sure that either the developers of CyanogenMod or the business-minded people have a firm idea of what CyanogenMod should be or can be. They have the advantage that, unlike Ubuntu, they are born with a good shot at doing a remunerative business in integrations for OEMs. The question is, is there a business in doing alternative ecosystem integrations, and are any of those alternative ecosystems free and open.

atoponce 12y ago

I just recently discovered this setup. I've been running Cyanogenmod for a few years, but was always under the impression I needed Google to use my phone, such as making calls. After my most recent install, I decided to go with F-Droid rather than with Google Play, and realized I could live entirely Google-free with zero effort. Apps in F-Droid have been lacking, and there are some FOSS apps in Google Play that are not in F-Droid, which is unfortunate. However, I have had a pleasant experience living Google- and proprietary-free on my Android phone. Really, the only thing I miss is Maps.

dang 12y ago

This article has received an extraordinary number of user flags, and I can't tell why. It relates to some controversial questions, of course, but is there anything terrible about it?

deleted 12y ago
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wldcordeiro 12y ago

This website needs a visual reboot, it's so ugly.

quadrangle 12y ago

For those who are into this, consider OmniROM instead of Cyanogenmod

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