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Such little regulation? Harsh capitalism? Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled b

Such little regulation? Harsh capitalism? Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. Most university students go to public schools. Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government. Harsh capitalism would be harsh on the universities who cling to a dying lecture/exam model that hasn't evolved for centuries. It would punish universities who don't produce results, instead of giving them students with free loans from the taxpayers. Harsh capitalism would see universities that can't evolve disappear. I feel like blaming things on capitalism and lack of regulation is so overplayed and fashionable that people can't take a second to think that maybe regulation and government caused the problem in the first place. Everything the government does right is lauded while everything it does wrong is blamed on "corporate interests" and capitalism.

esrauch 12y ago
Is it actually better for students that they can't default on their loans? I usually hear it the opposite way, that even after bankruptcy proceedings you still have your student loan debt following you around.
- dnautics 12y ago
  non-dischargeability was probably a 'good intention' gone horribly wrong. Because on the plus side, the student's APRs are lower because the lender can be guaranteed to own a portion of the student's labor for the specified term unless they die. And because the higher educational institutes really ought to be entitled to continue extracting their students' value.
  - justizin 12y ago
    the problem is that higher education is the only product aside from used cars in the US which can be sold without an implied warranty of merchantability.
    - sitkack 12y ago
      Cobalt Phd.
    - dnautics 12y ago
      how would you suggest structuring this warranty?
- dustcoin 12y ago
  Students do default on student loans, even though they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. 14.7% of students who started repayment in 2010 defaulted within 3 years. (Source: http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/cdr.html http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/cdr.html) If the government did not guarantee and subsidize the loans, interest rates would be higher and/or banks would be more careful which students they lent to.
  - sitkack 12y ago
    Which is fine, because as it stands the feedback loop is broken. Look at what you can spend yourself into at the University of Phoenix. Many are not much better.
tehwalrus 12y ago
Government (university) administrators can be (forced to be) heartless capitalists too, you know.
- hnal943 12y ago
  or maybe capitalism isn't the only "heartless" economic system. Central planning bureaucrats have been responsible for far more suffering globally than any capitalist ever has.
  - tehwalrus 12y ago
    fair point - how about we call bad people bad people for doing bad things, whatever their political misconceptions? There are plenty of examples of humans being mean to each other in pretty much every setting. America's allergic reaction to public healthcare is an example of a systemic/cultural cause of significant unnecessary suffering[1]. Sure historically communists have done much worse, and indeed still are in North Korea, but that's not much of a target to beat. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health
liveoneggs 12y ago
what, exactly, is better than lectures and exams?
- vacri 12y ago
  I don't know about US grading schemes, but here in Australia, pretty much every course has some form of assignments or series thereof. The assignments can be a small or substantial part of the final mark, or even the total final mark, depending on the kind of course. I suspect the same is true in US tertiary institutions, and that railing against exams is just a tired old trope. It's hard to believe that it would be the general standard in the US to have the entirety of the final mark attributable to exams. But, like I said, I'm not familiar with their curricula.
  - cpwright 12y ago
    My experience is from SUNY Stony Brook (a university run by the state of New York). What goes into the grade, is pretty much entirely up to the professor. I have had very few classes where the whole of the grade was an exam; but there were a few. More often, the homework is some portion of the grade, but it could be minimal (e.g., 10%). For computer science classes and some humanities classes, it was more likely there would be larger projects or term papers. For things like math, the homework was usually a smaller part of the grade. The real advantage of doing the assignments was that you could practice for what would potentially be on the test, and there would be a TA to grade it and give you feedback.
rdtsc 12y ago
> Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Obviously not propped enough if this professor died in poverty and students need 6 figure loans to graduate. > Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. As opposed to what? Controlled by Coca-Cola? Starbucks? -- "Do you have a degree?" -- "I sure do, I graduated with MS in coffee arts (MsCA) from Starbucks University, Phoenix". Or just got a "PhD in applied lobbying from Lockheed". > Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government. The problem is not to just stop giving loans, but let people go to universities without needing loans. If Universities are public, they should admit based on merit. And instead of cycling money through govt to student to university, just subsidize the university and make sure it doesn't spend money on admin assistants, triple layers of bureaucracy, new gyms with lazy rivers and other crap that is not needed. Maybe if it is too hard, just increase % of admitted students based on merit, some that couldn't quite make it and are rich perhaps could buy their way in. > maybe regulation and government caused the problem in the first place. Can you point to an example of an attested and well functioning higher learning system not regulated and propped by a government?
- jmckib 12y ago
  > As opposed to what? Controlled by Coca-Cola? Starbucks? -- "Do you have a degree?" -- "I sure do, I graduated with MS in coffee arts (MsCA) from Starbucks University, Phoenix". Or just got a "PhD in applied lobbying from Lockheed" School vouchers are a great alternative to public schools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher
  - Jtsummers 12y ago
    My primary issue with school vouchers is the poor state of private schools, at least here in GA (outside of the major cities like Atlanta and Savannah). The Catholic schools are decent to good, but often are only K-8. There are few private secular schools. The rest of the private schools are very conservative "Christian Academy" types whose education leaves their students complete morons in some fields (math, science, history, civics; I guess, really, everything).
pjmorris 12y ago
> 'cling to a dying lecture/exam model that hasn't evolved for centuries' It dawned on me this week that Y Combinator itself is structured more like this 'dying lecture/exam model', set in a physical place where 'students' and 'instructors' can interact directly rather than being intermediated by some app, screen or paper. If there is any group in any place who would be more likely to disrupt education by the application of high tech, I'd be surprised. That they adopt a model you say is dying suggests that there may be more life in it that might be expected.
- ihnorton 12y ago
  Indeed. Proximity facilitates our communication and judgement faculties in a way that is hard to replicate online (although it is a very interesting problem to contemplate). Is it possible to replicate the experience of following a professor out of a classroom and getting a summer research position from the ensuing conversation? The subtle cues and trust-building of both direct and group conversation? Video chat helps, but it's not the same. One small aspect: it seems easier to "turn off" a digital interaction.
- XorNot 12y ago
  Lectures till aren't helpful most of the time though compared to practically any other form of instruction. I'd also wager that Y combinator has much smaller class sizes and is more like a tutorial then lectures.

esrauch 12y ago

Is it actually better for students that they can't default on their loans? I usually hear it the opposite way, that even after bankruptcy proceedings you still have your student loan debt following you around.

dnautics 12y ago
non-dischargeability was probably a 'good intention' gone horribly wrong. Because on the plus side, the student's APRs are lower because the lender can be guaranteed to own a portion of the student's labor for the specified term unless they die. And because the higher educational institutes really ought to be entitled to continue extracting their students' value.
- justizin 12y ago
  the problem is that higher education is the only product aside from used cars in the US which can be sold without an implied warranty of merchantability.
  - sitkack 12y ago
    Cobalt Phd.
  - dnautics 12y ago
    how would you suggest structuring this warranty?
dustcoin 12y ago
Students do default on student loans, even though they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. 14.7% of students who started repayment in 2010 defaulted within 3 years. (Source: http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/cdr.html http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/defaultmanagement/cdr.html) If the government did not guarantee and subsidize the loans, interest rates would be higher and/or banks would be more careful which students they lent to.
- sitkack 12y ago
  Which is fine, because as it stands the feedback loop is broken. Look at what you can spend yourself into at the University of Phoenix. Many are not much better.

tehwalrus 12y ago

Government (university) administrators can be (forced to be) heartless capitalists too, you know.

hnal943 12y ago
or maybe capitalism isn't the only "heartless" economic system. Central planning bureaucrats have been responsible for far more suffering globally than any capitalist ever has.
- tehwalrus 12y ago
  fair point - how about we call bad people bad people for doing bad things, whatever their political misconceptions? There are plenty of examples of humans being mean to each other in pretty much every setting. America's allergic reaction to public healthcare is an example of a systemic/cultural cause of significant unnecessary suffering[1]. Sure historically communists have done much worse, and indeed still are in North Korea, but that's not much of a target to beat. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health

liveoneggs 12y ago

what, exactly, is better than lectures and exams?

vacri 12y ago
I don't know about US grading schemes, but here in Australia, pretty much every course has some form of assignments or series thereof. The assignments can be a small or substantial part of the final mark, or even the total final mark, depending on the kind of course. I suspect the same is true in US tertiary institutions, and that railing against exams is just a tired old trope. It's hard to believe that it would be the general standard in the US to have the entirety of the final mark attributable to exams. But, like I said, I'm not familiar with their curricula.
- cpwright 12y ago
  My experience is from SUNY Stony Brook (a university run by the state of New York). What goes into the grade, is pretty much entirely up to the professor. I have had very few classes where the whole of the grade was an exam; but there were a few. More often, the homework is some portion of the grade, but it could be minimal (e.g., 10%). For computer science classes and some humanities classes, it was more likely there would be larger projects or term papers. For things like math, the homework was usually a smaller part of the grade. The real advantage of doing the assignments was that you could practice for what would potentially be on the test, and there would be a TA to grade it and give you feedback.

rdtsc 12y ago

> Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Obviously not propped enough if this professor died in poverty and students need 6 figure loans to graduate. > Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. As opposed to what? Controlled by Coca-Cola? Starbucks? -- "Do you have a degree?" -- "I sure do, I graduated with MS in coffee arts (MsCA) from Starbucks University, Phoenix". Or just got a "PhD in applied lobbying from Lockheed". > Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government. The problem is not to just stop giving loans, but let people go to universities without needing loans. If Universities are public, they should admit based on merit. And instead of cycling money through govt to student to university, just subsidize the university and make sure it doesn't spend money on admin assistants, triple layers of bureaucracy, new gyms with lazy rivers and other crap that is not needed. Maybe if it is too hard, just increase % of admitted students based on merit, some that couldn't quite make it and are rich perhaps could buy their way in. > maybe regulation and government caused the problem in the first place. Can you point to an example of an attested and well functioning higher learning system not regulated and propped by a government?

jmckib 12y ago
> As opposed to what? Controlled by Coca-Cola? Starbucks? -- "Do you have a degree?" -- "I sure do, I graduated with MS in coffee arts (MsCA) from Starbucks University, Phoenix". Or just got a "PhD in applied lobbying from Lockheed" School vouchers are a great alternative to public schools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher
- Jtsummers 12y ago
  My primary issue with school vouchers is the poor state of private schools, at least here in GA (outside of the major cities like Atlanta and Savannah). The Catholic schools are decent to good, but often are only K-8. There are few private secular schools. The rest of the private schools are very conservative "Christian Academy" types whose education leaves their students complete morons in some fields (math, science, history, civics; I guess, really, everything).

pjmorris 12y ago

> 'cling to a dying lecture/exam model that hasn't evolved for centuries' It dawned on me this week that Y Combinator itself is structured more like this 'dying lecture/exam model', set in a physical place where 'students' and 'instructors' can interact directly rather than being intermediated by some app, screen or paper. If there is any group in any place who would be more likely to disrupt education by the application of high tech, I'd be surprised. That they adopt a model you say is dying suggests that there may be more life in it that might be expected.

ihnorton 12y ago
Indeed. Proximity facilitates our communication and judgement faculties in a way that is hard to replicate online (although it is a very interesting problem to contemplate). Is it possible to replicate the experience of following a professor out of a classroom and getting a summer research position from the ensuing conversation? The subtle cues and trust-building of both direct and group conversation? Video chat helps, but it's not the same. One small aspect: it seems easier to "turn off" a digital interaction.
XorNot 12y ago
Lectures till aren't helpful most of the time though compared to practically any other form of instruction. I'd also wager that Y combinator has much smaller class sizes and is more like a tutorial then lectures.