8 ms·

Extremely harsh laws branding and shaming sex offenders for life seem very easy for politicans to pass, and wildly popular. Once they're passed, as the article

Extremely harsh laws branding and shaming sex offenders for life seem very easy for politicans to pass, and wildly popular. Once they're passed, as the article noted, it's hard to imagine anyone mustering the political willpower to strike them down. From the perspective of someone pretty young - why are these laws being instituted now, instead of, say, a hundred years ago? What's changed? Is it simply a matter of finally having enough central organization to actually effectively track and monitor them?

MikeCapone 17y ago
Is it possible that one thing that has changed is the media/entertainment world? Most of what people know about people who commit sex crimes comes from movies and the evening news, and is not representative of the vast majority (90%+ ?) of people who end up on these lists. Same with people in prison. People imagine that it's a bunch of murderers and career criminals, while it's mostly pot smokers and non-violent offenders.
- scott_s 17y ago
  It's not just that the media has changed, there's much, much more of it. The problem with 24-hour news channels is they are 24 hours. Even if there's no real news to report, they have to talk about something. Hence they go in an entertainment direction, or harp on things that people have an emotional response to that is not in balance with the actual risk - such as child molesters.
  - pyre 17y ago
    The number of children that are sexually abused/kidnapped/murdered by complete strangers PALES in comparison to the number of children that are abused/kidnapped/murdered by family members/close friends/teachers/etc. Yet people go all ga-ga about guy in the beat-up car trolling through residential neighborhoods to entice kids into his car with promises of candy. This image is largely a modern-day boogie-man. It does happen, and it is a tragedy. But there are MORE children that are raped by a parent/sibling/babysitter than there are by complete strangers.
    - scott_s 17y ago
      Yes, that's what I was referring to.
    - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
      Which is fine if you're considering general law making - the thing is that it doesn't matter one hoot to a parent, Ms. Dugar's mother say, that the chance of a car stopping at the side of the road and snatching your child is vanishingly small. If it happens at all it happens too often. It's no comfort to know if you've been incarcerated for years with the threat of sexual abuse, torture or death hanging over you that very few people get kidnapped really.
      - scott_s 17y ago
        It does matter to a parent, because parents (and people in general) should worry about things in proportion to their likelihood to happen and their impact. But we are irrational creatures, and we don't.
- cellis 17y ago
  Mostly pot smokers and non-violent offenders. Citation needed. My father works in a medium-security prison, and it is exactly as "people imagine".
  - RyanMcGreal 17y ago
    Put pot smokers and non-violent offenders into prison, and they turn into hardened criminals.
    - zach 17y ago
      Citation needed. Here, let me Google "prison recidivism non-violent" for you -- a 1997 study which suggests that only about 15% of nonviolent offenders are returned to prison within three years for violent offenses [PDF]: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pnoesp.pdf http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pnoesp.pdf
      - sho 17y ago
        You're proving the parent's point?
        zach 17y ago
        Isn't 15% is about what you would expect if they were randomly convicted first of a nonviolent offense?
        radu_floricica 17y ago
        Maybe in America. In my corner of the world it would be way under 1%.
        zach 17y ago
        I wouldn't be surprised if it were lower, but I would love to see some real statistics in play.
- adrinavarro 17y ago
  Media is not the key. In fact, we can't change the media/entertainment world, but change perception of things in our society. For example, a guy which has once visited a prostitute in his life is not a sexual offender. At least for me. That said, it's a priority to set levels of "punishment" (like appearing on a public list that after becomes an iPhone app, and after all your neighbors know that you appear in a sexual offender list, when it's just some stupidity you did some day). On another side, I find that the consensual sex ages may be a bit high. For example, 'we' (DISCLAIMER: I'm a 15y guy) do it around 14-16, not 16-18. And, why consider that like a crime, or something bad? (hey, we do have fun in secure ways, just avoid any unneeded intervention in it)
  - jsteele 17y ago
    "Media is not the key. In fact, we can't change the media/entertainment world, but change perception of things in our society." Where do you think "perception of things in our society" comes from?
    - pyre 17y ago
      We need to get people to stop believing that 'tv == realism.' Watching "Law & Order" doesn't make you a legal expert. Watching "The Sopranos" doesn't mean that you know all about the mob. There are people that believe this though. Statements like, "the revolution will not be televised" are a reflection of this tendency in our society.
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  That is a major factor; our communications technology does not immunize us from moral panics - if anything it can amplify them. I wouldn't say 'most' prisoners are pot smokers or non-violent, although I think too many of the former are in prison. In California I think the rate of imprisonment for drug violations is about 20% - don't have time to looking up the stats now. That's not as high as people imagine, and of course many of those people are gangbangers or suchlike rather than hippies who were smoking peacefully on a mountaintop and suddenly got arrested. But you have to factor in 3 strikes and so on as well. Unfortunately more people will vote for 'throw away the key!' than 'study and rehabilitiate!', and California has a very powerful prison officer's union which always heavily supports law-and-order legislation and ballot initiatives. Although I too found this article very interesting, I do have to question if it really passes the HN smell test...the kind of policy questions under discussion here are not really amenable to technical solutions. No flag, but I urge you to be a bit more selective.
- thismat 17y ago
  As a father, I can say that if someone moves in near me and they're a registered sex offender, I hope to know about it. I don't care how minuscule the crime is, the possibility of repeat offenses or misbehavior is too high to risk it. "Is the punishment too harsh" is purely subjective, sometimes yes, sometimes no, but any inappropriate behavior around children (impressionable, gullible, naive) should be punished. If a person shows that kind of poor judgment they should suffer the consequences of their actions. EDIT: A lot of this has to do with parenting practices and their responsibility in all of this as well. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but not trusting people until they've earned it has kept me out of more situations than the hassle it might have caused. It's depressing we don't value our youth more honestly. This is also not really related to HN, I expect to find this on digg/reddit/slash., but here? EDIT: To the reply about the 15 year old giving a blowjob to a classmate, read the subjective part again, sometimes the punishment doesn't fit the crime, especially when you consider two minors, I'm addressing the adult indecent behavior, not the minors with minors, that's a parenting problem in my eyes.
  - jdbeast00 17y ago
    so the girl in the article who gave a blowjob when she was 15 to a guy in her class...you think its appropriate now that she is 30 that everywhere she moves she has to announce that she's a sex offender? come on, that's ridiculous. If we are putting sex offender registries online, lets put all criminal registries online as well. I should know if I live next to people with drug habits, right?
    - nuclear_eclipse 17y ago
      "Hi, I'm legally obligated to tell you that I'm a registered drug offender." "No way! Me too!!" "Duuuude..."
  - MikeCapone 17y ago
    There is a longer piece here that I encourage you to read: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164614 http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164614 Major points: -A lot of the people on these registers are not considered dangerous (people who had consensual sex as teenagers) -There's no evidence that these public registers reduce the risk. -They ruin the lives of many people.
sho 17y ago
What's changed? Easy, people are too rich and lazy and now democracy doesn't work any more. I hope the answer isn't too upsetting but you know it's true.

MikeCapone 17y ago

Is it possible that one thing that has changed is the media/entertainment world? Most of what people know about people who commit sex crimes comes from movies and the evening news, and is not representative of the vast majority (90%+ ?) of people who end up on these lists. Same with people in prison. People imagine that it's a bunch of murderers and career criminals, while it's mostly pot smokers and non-violent offenders.

scott_s 17y ago
It's not just that the media has changed, there's much, much more of it. The problem with 24-hour news channels is they are 24 hours. Even if there's no real news to report, they have to talk about something. Hence they go in an entertainment direction, or harp on things that people have an emotional response to that is not in balance with the actual risk - such as child molesters.
- pyre 17y ago
  The number of children that are sexually abused/kidnapped/murdered by complete strangers PALES in comparison to the number of children that are abused/kidnapped/murdered by family members/close friends/teachers/etc. Yet people go all ga-ga about guy in the beat-up car trolling through residential neighborhoods to entice kids into his car with promises of candy. This image is largely a modern-day boogie-man. It does happen, and it is a tragedy. But there are MORE children that are raped by a parent/sibling/babysitter than there are by complete strangers.
  - scott_s 17y ago
    Yes, that's what I was referring to.
  - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
    Which is fine if you're considering general law making - the thing is that it doesn't matter one hoot to a parent, Ms. Dugar's mother say, that the chance of a car stopping at the side of the road and snatching your child is vanishingly small. If it happens at all it happens too often. It's no comfort to know if you've been incarcerated for years with the threat of sexual abuse, torture or death hanging over you that very few people get kidnapped really.
    - scott_s 17y ago
      It does matter to a parent, because parents (and people in general) should worry about things in proportion to their likelihood to happen and their impact. But we are irrational creatures, and we don't.
cellis 17y ago
Mostly pot smokers and non-violent offenders. Citation needed. My father works in a medium-security prison, and it is exactly as "people imagine".
- RyanMcGreal 17y ago
  Put pot smokers and non-violent offenders into prison, and they turn into hardened criminals.
  - zach 17y ago
    Citation needed. Here, let me Google "prison recidivism non-violent" for you -- a 1997 study which suggests that only about 15% of nonviolent offenders are returned to prison within three years for violent offenses [PDF]: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pnoesp.pdf http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pnoesp.pdf
    - sho 17y ago
      You're proving the parent's point?
      - zach 17y ago
        Isn't 15% is about what you would expect if they were randomly convicted first of a nonviolent offense?
        radu_floricica 17y ago
        Maybe in America. In my corner of the world it would be way under 1%.
        zach 17y ago
        I wouldn't be surprised if it were lower, but I would love to see some real statistics in play.
adrinavarro 17y ago
Media is not the key. In fact, we can't change the media/entertainment world, but change perception of things in our society. For example, a guy which has once visited a prostitute in his life is not a sexual offender. At least for me. That said, it's a priority to set levels of "punishment" (like appearing on a public list that after becomes an iPhone app, and after all your neighbors know that you appear in a sexual offender list, when it's just some stupidity you did some day). On another side, I find that the consensual sex ages may be a bit high. For example, 'we' (DISCLAIMER: I'm a 15y guy) do it around 14-16, not 16-18. And, why consider that like a crime, or something bad? (hey, we do have fun in secure ways, just avoid any unneeded intervention in it)
- jsteele 17y ago
  "Media is not the key. In fact, we can't change the media/entertainment world, but change perception of things in our society." Where do you think "perception of things in our society" comes from?
  - pyre 17y ago
    We need to get people to stop believing that 'tv == realism.' Watching "Law & Order" doesn't make you a legal expert. Watching "The Sopranos" doesn't mean that you know all about the mob. There are people that believe this though. Statements like, "the revolution will not be televised" are a reflection of this tendency in our society.
anigbrowl 17y ago
That is a major factor; our communications technology does not immunize us from moral panics - if anything it can amplify them. I wouldn't say 'most' prisoners are pot smokers or non-violent, although I think too many of the former are in prison. In California I think the rate of imprisonment for drug violations is about 20% - don't have time to looking up the stats now. That's not as high as people imagine, and of course many of those people are gangbangers or suchlike rather than hippies who were smoking peacefully on a mountaintop and suddenly got arrested. But you have to factor in 3 strikes and so on as well. Unfortunately more people will vote for 'throw away the key!' than 'study and rehabilitiate!', and California has a very powerful prison officer's union which always heavily supports law-and-order legislation and ballot initiatives. Although I too found this article very interesting, I do have to question if it really passes the HN smell test...the kind of policy questions under discussion here are not really amenable to technical solutions. No flag, but I urge you to be a bit more selective.
thismat 17y ago
As a father, I can say that if someone moves in near me and they're a registered sex offender, I hope to know about it. I don't care how minuscule the crime is, the possibility of repeat offenses or misbehavior is too high to risk it. "Is the punishment too harsh" is purely subjective, sometimes yes, sometimes no, but any inappropriate behavior around children (impressionable, gullible, naive) should be punished. If a person shows that kind of poor judgment they should suffer the consequences of their actions. EDIT: A lot of this has to do with parenting practices and their responsibility in all of this as well. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but not trusting people until they've earned it has kept me out of more situations than the hassle it might have caused. It's depressing we don't value our youth more honestly. This is also not really related to HN, I expect to find this on digg/reddit/slash., but here? EDIT: To the reply about the 15 year old giving a blowjob to a classmate, read the subjective part again, sometimes the punishment doesn't fit the crime, especially when you consider two minors, I'm addressing the adult indecent behavior, not the minors with minors, that's a parenting problem in my eyes.
- jdbeast00 17y ago
  so the girl in the article who gave a blowjob when she was 15 to a guy in her class...you think its appropriate now that she is 30 that everywhere she moves she has to announce that she's a sex offender? come on, that's ridiculous. If we are putting sex offender registries online, lets put all criminal registries online as well. I should know if I live next to people with drug habits, right?
  - nuclear_eclipse 17y ago
    "Hi, I'm legally obligated to tell you that I'm a registered drug offender." "No way! Me too!!" "Duuuude..."
- MikeCapone 17y ago
  There is a longer piece here that I encourage you to read: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164614 http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164614 Major points: -A lot of the people on these registers are not considered dangerous (people who had consensual sex as teenagers) -There's no evidence that these public registers reduce the risk. -They ruin the lives of many people.

sho 17y ago

What's changed? Easy, people are too rich and lazy and now democracy doesn't work any more. I hope the answer isn't too upsetting but you know it's true.