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Stockholm – it's not a coincidence
- jere 12y agoGreat video, but I'm wondering what's going on with this page. There is a giant (700px tall) div with only white text (on a white background) and the video all the way at the bottom.
- danielsju6 12y agoIf you look at the other pages there is a photograph that fills this space. Just not loading on that page.
- cesarbs 12y agoThe website makes it sound like it's relatively simple to move there for work, and permanent residence seems to be granted after 4 years working there. Can someone confirm that it is really that simple? What is the situation like for software developers who already have experience abroad (my case, I'm from Brazil but currently working in the US)?
- _delirium 12y agoIf you have an offer of full-time employment, it's relatively easy (especially in the technology sector, since "in-demand" areas have some extra deference). This is sometimes called "sponsorship", but unlike the U.S. H1B process, the company doesn't really have to do anything besides offering you a job. But, it's not easy to move there without a job offer.
- johansch 12y agoIt is pretty easy to do get a job offer in our industry. And employers know that the visa/work permit process is easy, quick (typically a few weeks) and predictable, so there is a lot less bias against foreign applicants than in e.g. the US.
- _delirium 12y agoYeah, I agree it's pretty easy if you want to move to Sweden to work at a tech job. But I think it's a reasonable caveat; some people might want to move to Sweden for other reasons, like starting a company or as a base of operations for freelancing, and that's considerably harder. IMO Scandinavia is actually a great place to be a freelancer, even for foreigners, if you can build a modest network. High cost of living, but no worry about health/benefits being tied to your job, very English-friendly, and a lot of part-time/freelance tech work that pays well. But it's very hard to get the formalities sorted out for that, unless you first get an EU citizenship or permanent residency via another route.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- _delirium 12y agoUnfortunately, considerably harder. There is a visa category (in Denmark, also, which I'm somewhat more familiar with), but it's not anything close to the almost-a-rubber-stamp process that the pending employment offers category is. Things will go most smoothly if you have venture capital or revenues already, and you want to move the business there. There is considerable general interest in startups, and people talk about doing something to make it easier to get a visa to start a company. But there are still some roadblocks preventing a more streamlined process. One is that people aren't sure how to judge a legitimate startup, from any random person who claims to be "doing a startup". And there's even some paranoia that your "startup", if not fake, is a real but unsavory business, perhaps some kind of import/export business involving the trade in smokeable plants. Another purely political-coalition-based factor is that the streamlined employment visa categories were pushed through (over some nativist opposition) by big businesses with hiring problems, and so they are narrowly tailored to solve their problem, which is how to get their own new hires into the country with minimal expense/delay. edit: parent comment was asking about a visa to start a business in Sweden. I think the above might be useful information, so I'm leaving it anyway.
- optimiz3 12y agoCan someone on a visa switch jobs? In the U.S. changing jobs while on a visa resets the residency process, which indentures the employee to the employer.
- mrghn 12y agoFor the first year, you're tied to your employer. After that, you're free to change jobs, but only within your field of work. You need to reapply for the work permit when you change jobs or every two years (max validity duration), which is quite painless. After 4 years you should get permanent residence, and no longer need any permits.. This is the process for most non-EU residents.
- cesarbs 12y agoIs the permanent residence just granted after 4 years, or is it a stressful process like the American Green Card one?
- _delirium 12y agoIt's (for now, anyway) a fairly routine process. If you've been a legal, self-sufficient resident of Sweden for 4 years, you get permanent residency after a straightforward application. There is some debate over adding a Swedish-language requirement, but there isn't currently one. That is one of the two difference with Denmark: if you're a non-EU immigrant to Denmark, you need to live there 5 years under the same conditions rather than 4, plus pass a middle-level Danish competency exam.
- cesarbs 12y agoInteresting. And once a permanent resident, do you know how hard it is to attain citizenship?
- hedwall 12y agoI have a friend who moved to Sweden from the US (US Citizen) about two years ago, if you have a job offer or a contract i believe it to be fairly easy to get over here.
- steele 12y agoThe visa process is straightforward and startlingly efficient compared to other countries in Europe. The train can get you to the immigration offices very easily. The appointment system effective and gets you through the process much faster if you are aware of it. Research the Schengen visa because it is a really great opportunity if you aren't in love with the idea to committing to one country in Europe; the additional career mobility it affords is really fantastic. The aspect which provides the lowest barrier to entry is that English is spoken widely and well in Stockholm. One somewhat funny and repeated experience is thinking you are being greeted with a friendly American-English "hey!" when entering a store or restaurant, but in fact it is the Swedish greeting "hej", haha.
- rational-future 12y agoI'd only recommend moving to Sweden, if you have a family and want a stress free 37.5 hours job. Practically free, but very good healthcare and education for your kids, high pensions and unemployment benefits. But on average you'll have to live in a lot smaller house/apartment, make less money after taxes, suffer the cold climate (unless you love winter sports). The startup scene is 1/1000th of the Valley.
- cesarbs 12y agoSounds good to me! Stress free is what I look for, and not having to worry about health insurance seems awesome. I think it would be a good life for my family. The weather is not a problem, I love cold climates :)
- nkoren 12y agoVery cool video for what is indeed a wonderful city. Yet it is also a very, very, very expensive city. I remember the last time I returned home from a trip to Stockholm, the relief I felt as the wheels hit the runway: "Aaaahhh... finally back in the land where things are affordable!" (As a point of reference: I live in central London.)
- mhp 12y agoThis could be a plus for some people, but average low temperatures are at or below freezing for half the year. source: http://www.holiday-weather.com/stockholm/averages/ http://www.holiday-weather.com/stockholm/averages/
- klon 12y agoYes, this is Stockholms weak point, the weather is not very nice a large part of the year.
- sliverstorm 12y agoSounds like a plus to me.
- yellowapple 12y agoHuge plus for me :) I already live in a place with sub-freezing temperatures half the year or more. Absolutely love it.
- PeterWhittaker 12y agoAt or below freezing? Bah! I'll see your mild summers and chilly winters and raise you hot and humid and frikkin' cold! http://www.holiday-weather.com/ottawa/averages/ http://www.holiday-weather.com/ottawa/averages/ Stockholm is positively mild compared to Ottawa.
- Dewie 12y agoGood for you, man.
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- Antiquarian 12y agoCities are a consumer good.
- Yrlec 12y agoStockholm's startup community has really blossomed in recent years. I think two reasons behind it are: 1. A more competitive tax policy (http://forumblog.org/2014/06/europes-top-ten-competitive-economies/ http://forumblog.org/2014/06/europes-top-ten-competitive-eco...). 2. More VC and Angel captial available as a result of previous Swedish unicorns such as Skype, Spotify and King. If you happen to visit Stockholm you should check out STHLM Tech Meetup (http://www.meetup.com/STHLM-Tech-Meetup/ http://www.meetup.com/STHLM-Tech-Meetup/) and SUP46: http://sup46.com/ http://sup46.com/.
- rational-future 12y agoSkype is not Swedish. It was developed in Estonia and incorporated in Luxembourg.
- sandstrom 12y agoTrue, though it was founded by a Swede and a Dane (and with some of its initial capital being from Sweden). But I partly agree, saying it's a Swedish company is a stretch.
- Yrlec 12y agoOne of the founders is Swedish. Therefore the Skype exit increased the supply of VC money in Sweden (through Atomico), which was my point.
- dsco 12y agoA great city to live in indeed. But as someone who's stayed here for over 20 years the winters are still unbearable. Mind you, all of the perks in the video are something I appreciate each day – but the cold and lack of sunlight 8 months a year takes a toll on you – especially if you enjoy being outdoors more than indoors.
- BugBrother 12y agoFrankly, the best thing with coming from Sweden is that you get better weather wherever you move (except Iceland, Greenland -- and England). :-) That said, I'd like to be more in .se in the summers than I can do now. It is so beautiful with the light, the forests and the lakes. Edit: I don't mind the cold, but: For yellowapple and others -- the lack of sun influences your hormone levels, people are a bit different in the winter. I was amazed when I saw discussion of SAD among Californians; up in Scandinavia, it is just how it is. I didn't even note it, unless I went on a winter vacation.
- Dewie 12y ago> Frankly, the best thing with coming from Sweden is that you get better weather wherever you move (except Iceland, Greenland -- and England). :-) Judging from the numbers, it looks decently typical for a Scandinavian city at its latitude.
- BugBrother 12y ago>>it looks decently typical for a Scandinavian city at its latitude. I did write "Sweden", not Stockholm, so yes. (Sure, north Sweden is a different subject.) (I had fun on Facebook yesterday when the Finns told about their snow. :-) It is very uncommon in June.) Edit: To move inside Scandinavia isn't really moving to a foreign country, Dewie. I lived in Helsinki a few years, really nice but it was disappointingly non-exotic. Edit 2: And for Norwegian weather -- check climate of Bergen for rain. (That said, a wonderful city to live.)
- Dewie 12y ago
- antr 12y agoCry havoc! These crazy, bicycle riding, northern European hippies talking about recycling, 'health, safety & security', exceptional quality of life! You communists! Give me my car, suburban house, gun, and private healthcare. Give me my freedom back! </sarcasm> Good for Stockholm and Sweden. I only wish cities and companies valued these as much as many of us do. Focusing on making cities more liveable, easy to move around, safe, etc are big problem/concerns off people's backs; and there is a direct economic benefit to all of these.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- antr 12y agoI've lived/worked in many cities/counties around Europe and have also lived in Boston, and one thing is for sure, there is no one perfect country – I don't take all of what the video says at face value. We (humans) think it is always greener on the other side, but it is rarely the case. Regardless, some of things that work, work very well, and are big problem solvers for citizens. See the case of public healthcare all around Europe. Some people have already mentioned some of the downsides to Sweden (weather, job permits, etc), but to say that what Stockholm (and by extension Sweden) has achieved is "based in peer-pressured conservative egalitarianism" is being short sighted – the same could be said of Russia and other eastern European countries, and yet here is Sweden. What has made this possible are the people, who have made it pretty clear what their priorities as a society are on healthcare, environment, energy, education, etc. This doesn't happen because a country closed their borders (I take it you have a bad view on immigration), and by a stochastic process all this goodness happened. This has happened by design (and yet it is no problem-free, only better).
- Wicher 12y agoEdit: This is a reply to a comment that's now deleted. So this orphan reply doesn't make much sense without the parent. Things are changing: "Sweden on Tuesday became the first European Union country to announce it will give asylum to all Syrian refugees who apply." : http://tribune.com.pk/story/599235/sweden-grants-blanket-asylum-to-syrian-refugees/ http://tribune.com.pk/story/599235/sweden-grants-blanket-asy... And yes, immigration is already causing problems. Here, have some riots, happened just over one year ago: http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2013/05/swedens-riots http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2013/05/swedens-r... So maybe we won't need to wait for the "decade or two" you mentioned. But for what it's worth, while living there (in Umeå, actually) for half a year I got the feeling that people really do set priorities differently. I'm hoping Swedish society will more or less stay that way. Even if that society is based on "peer-pressured conservative egalitarianism". For I like to know that there's a place I can go when I've had enough of peer-pressured competitive consumerism.
- Dolimiter 12y agoMeanwhile, in the real world... Don't come to Sweden without a job. Even then, Sweden is one of the most difficult countries in Europe to migrate to. Society is extremely conservative, and social opportunities to "get to know" Swedes are limited. Without a solid job offer, you are in trouble. Sweden is having a job crisis at the moment, and only Swedes are being hired. Are you a working professional with a solid CV? No-one cares, there are no jobs for you. Have 10 years experience in a sector? Sorry, you need a Swedish qualification for that job. Please note that I am employed, integrated, and super happy here. But I have met 100s of expats whose dreams have been crushed by the Swedish system and by the limited social opportunities.
- sumedh 12y ago> But I have met 100s of expats whose dreams have been crushed by the Swedish system I am assuming that the expats had job offers first and then they moved to Sweden or do they just show up and start looking for jobs.
- Dolimiter 12y agoSome came on temporary contracts, and wanted to stay longer. Some came for Swedish boyfriend/girlfriend. Some came because they had a hopelessly naive idea about Sweden. Some were PhD graduates from Swedish universities. All had their dreams crushed.
- steinnes 12y agoSweden: The Crusher of Dreams.
- vacri 12y agoI don't know about Sweden specifically, but usually in Europe if you're under 30, you can just get a working visa, show up and look for work. If you're 30 or over, you need to have an offer of work before you can get a working visa.
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- Dewie 12y ago> The Capital of Scandinavia A slogan invented by... Stockholm. :P
- cgh 12y agoI wonder how the Norwegians feel about this.
- joakleaf 12y agoNo worse than the Danes ;-) Urban populations (from Wikipedia): Oslo, Norway: 951,581 Copenhagen, Denmark: 1,246,611 Stockholm, Sweden: 1,372,565
- BugBrother 12y agoI would expect them to not like it, but I assume the people in Copenhagen laugh a lot. :-)
- Dewie 12y agoWell, I'm Norwegian and I do not approve. :P
- vegardx 12y agoWe have a love/hate-relationship, but speaking as a Norwegian, being honest and not just wanting to stick it to those damn swedes, I think there is some truth to it. I've always looked at both Stockholm and Copenhagen as more cultured than Oslo. Compared to Oslo, both Stockholm and Copenhagen has a much richer history. It's sort of like a sibling relationship. Don't dare touch them, or you'll feel the wrath of the other siblings, but internally, we all like to make fun at the others expense. I recommend taking a look at the comic strip Scandinavia and the World, it talks a lot about that, and is pretty funny. [1] [1] http://satwcomic.com/ http://satwcomic.com/
- Dewie 12y ago> Compared to Oslo, both Stockholm and Copenhagen has a much richer history. Well Oslo as a real capital is quite young after all, it has been kind of an afterthought for a lot of its history. And you know who we have to thank for that.
- johansch 12y agoHere are the relevant rules for people who might want to move to Sweden to start their own business: http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Self-employment.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/W... "Requirements for obtaining a residence permit as a self-employed In order to obtain a residence permit, you must: - have a valid passport - show that you have significant experience in your field and previous experience of running your own business - have documented knowledge in Swedish and/or English - show that you are running the business, that you have the ultimate responsibility for it and that you own at least half of the business - show that the business' services or goods are sold and/or produced in Sweden - show that you have sufficient funds to support you and, if applicable, your family during the first two years (equivalent to SEK 200,000 for you, SEK 100,000 for your spouse and SEK 50,000 for each accompanying child) - show that the business, following the two-year probationary period, is expected to be able to support yourself and, if applicable, your family. The Swedish Migration Board will assess your business plans from a financial perspective."
- devgutt 12y agoWhat about investments for new start-ups? I'm thinking to stay 2 weeks there trying to get an investment for my new company. Worth a shoot?
- keenerd 12y ago> show that you have sufficient funds to support you during the first two years (SEK 200,000) SEK 200,000 == $30,000 USD
- oscargrouch 12y agoThis is all very reasonable and pretty unusual.. i wonder how many migratory pressure the country is feeling usually, given the instability in some regions of the world that have Europe as a common migratory target.. it looks that the political class can keep its own sanity, even when pressure may be higher.. I wonder how much of this resonable migratory pressure is given to the Welfare state policy..
- beerbajay 12y agoGood luck finding an apartment in Stockholm; you need 10 years in the housing queue at least...
- qwerta 12y agoThere are many stories how local Social Services kidnap children of immigrants without any chance for repeal. No evidence, just single accusation. I think I will pass.
- vegardx 12y agoI think this deserves a reply. First of all, the child welfare system is not allowed to disclose why they take the children, so naturally you get a very one sided view of all stories. Scandinavian countries are culturally /very/ different from the rest of the world. Child safety is not taken lightly, and physical abuse or risk of sexual mutilation are typical things that they react on. Schools are obliged to contact the child welfare system if there is any suspicion or any wrong doing. I know the there are some pretty high profile cases with eastern european and middle eastern children involved right now, which I'm sure you are referring to. TL; DR: Don't hit your children. They will be taken away.
- qwerta 12y agoThe problem is not the first reaction of taking children away, I totally agree with that. Problem is to get children back after initial claims are not confirmed. They ignore other family members (grandparents, spouse) and just keep piling up excuses, i.e. you have to speak Swedish language.
- dllthomas 12y agoI think people have just convinced themselves it's good 'cause they're stuck there.
- templeos2 12y agoAsk a nigger, like stephen hawking, "What's 2+5?" "I can't answer, it's a trick."
- osivertsson 12y agoIf you are serious about relocating to Sweden then Stockholm is not your only choice. Other cities may provide even better quality of life depending on what you like. At least also consider: * Göteborg * Linköping * Umeå
- breitling 12y agoHow about the language barrier? Is it realistic for an English speaking North American to move to Sweden and work there? I presume Swedish will be their primary language...
- _delirium 12y agoIn tech it should be fine. I know in the game industry, at least, they don't care what other languages you speak, as long as you speak English. May or may not be true at bigger companies, e.g. if you're in IT in a big mainly-Swedish company. Though if you want to work at a bigger company, you could try Denmark, where my impression is that English workplaces are multiplying much faster. The biggest private-sector employer, Maersk, a few years ago switched to an officially all-English workplace, and this is becoming common. Their motivation was that as a multinational logistics company, it's too troublesome to have different languages involved: they want to have the flexibility to assign someone from Hong Kong to a Copenhagen-hosted teleconference, or forward them a document created in Copenhagen, so corporate policy is now that everything happens in English, except for a narrow range of things that legally must be done in other languages.
- alkonaut 12y agoMost people speak English, including bus drivers and anyone else you'll meet. I think the consensus is that swedes probably have the best English of all who don't have it as their first language. So it isn't just realistic, it's simple. Language-wise you may find it easier than parts of the UK (I'm not even joking). In the tech sector as well as all larger/multinational corporations English will be the primary language used. In fact, people who come to learn Swedish are routinely disappointed when they don't get a chance to try it, as the swedes are so delighted to speak English.
- stefan_kendall3 12y agoSeveral people have commented about a "housing queue". In much of the USA, we have a mechanism that matches the supply of goods and the demand for those goods, such that there is never a shortage or surplus without externalities. Funny how you can't legislate away the laws of economics.
- alkonaut 12y agoSadly, you can't legislate away the fact that there are always people who have less money. Last I checked, the possibility of getting a rent-controlled apartment in NYC was about the same as it is in stockholm (where you could argue that almost all apartments are rent-controlled). Even with market rents (which will come sooner or later), you won't find an apartment to rent because no one would build them (more profitable to build to sell, plus there is barely any place to build left in the central city). The law was recently changed so you can charge the true cost (including interest rates) when subletting, meaning that there is now a market for subletting apartments that uses market pricing more or less.