5 ms·

Titan Aerial Daughtercraft

36 points by ca98am79 12y ago

na85 12y ago
I just plain love NASA.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
zwilliamson 12y ago
I would like to see more of my tax dollars going to an endeavor like this.
- bsilvereagle 12y ago
  Inform your Congressman: http://www.contactingthecongress.org/ http://www.contactingthecongress.org/
Cogito 12y ago
As I understand it, they want to perform a feasibility study to determine if a mothership (balloon or lander) and daughtership (rotorcraft, maybe a quadcopter) combination would be an effective way to study Titan. The mothership would act as a base of operations; a recharging station at the least, probably containing communication devices and its own sensors as well. The daughtership, potentially multiple daughterships, would sortie out from the mothership and investigate the surface up close. They outline 4 outcomes from the initial study: (1) develop mission concepts of operations for deployment from a lander or balloon to acquire context imaging and mapping data, to sample from solid surfaces and/or lakes, and to return to the mothership to deposit samples and/or recharge; (2) develop a parametric sizing model of the daughtercraft to characterize propulsion, power, range, endurance, and payload capability for total daughtercraft mass ranging from approximately 1 to 10 kg; (3) develop a conceptual design and identify representative components for the entire daughtercraft hardware and software system for autonomous mobility, including estimates of approximate mass, power, and energy budgets and producing a representative CAD model; and (4) develop a conceptual design and preliminary CAD model for a science payload on the daughtercraft, including specifying a nominal instrument suite on the balloon or lander, designing a compatible sampling mechanism to acquire solid and/or liquid samples on the daughtercraft, and studying mechanisms and daughtercraft behaviors necessary to transfer the samples to the instruments. The study will be carried out by JPL. ---- I wonder how much the rotorcraft community (hobbyist or otherwise) could contribute to a study like this. I can imagine this would be extremely interesting, and not so different from the many applications already being investigated.
- austinz 12y ago
  This is the sort of stuff I would love to work on, as an engineer. Amazing new applications of technology coupled with a truly meaningful purpose.
  - zaroth 12y ago
    Any ideas in particular?
- ibisum 12y ago
  I'm part-way through building a plane at the moment, which will play host to a small quadcopter with its own video feed, so this story feels a lot like whats going on in my workshop. The intention is to build an automated system that will send the plane to a location, drop the quad, do a video survey, pick the quad back up, and fly back. This is purely for hobby purposes, as I am very interested in automatic flight systems, and while its too late for me to pursue a career in aerospace proper, its at least a means to fulfill my dreams of having such devices under my control. I think that the next 5 or 10 years of innovation in aerospace is going to come from the RC/UAV hobbyists who are pushing the boundaries of drone technology. Already we are seeing in the RC world massive leaps in drone automation, which have immediate uses in the real world, and it doesn't look like its going to stop. There's not a day that goes by where someone hasn't released an innovative new aspect of drone technology - whether its flight, construction, recovery, or application.
  - bsilvereagle 12y ago
    What's the wingspan on your plane? I built one (~36") that had two quads nested inside the wings, the wing bottoms opened up, causing the plane to go nose up, the quads slid out, the wings shut, and normal flight was resumed.
    - fit2rule 12y ago
      My current wing design is 1.5meters wide, and will have the quad mounted under the fuse at slightly-forward of CG. Trim will reconfigure for the added weight, but I'm using a small quad so the pitch trim shouldn't be too detrimental, but there are other solutions to this problem too (moving ballast). Its still early days yet, but I hope to have maiden in the next few weeks.
mbenjaminsmith 12y ago
> Titan is the richest laboratory in the solar system for studying prebiotic chemistry Does that mean prebiotic environment + time != biotic environment? Is this NASA being conservative and managing expectations? I'm probably incorrect in assuming this but given our current theories about abiogenesis you would think either the environment isn't viably pre-biotic or it would be full on biotic by now. If it is, say, quasi-prebiotic wouldn't that make it much less valuable for study if the goal is to understand the origin of life? I think this suggests they're either downplaying the mission as a search for life or overstating the value of studying the moon as a "prebiotic" environment.
- Figs 12y ago
  I think all they mean by "prebiotic" is that Titan is similar to models that scientists have proposed for what the Earth might have been like before there was life (assuming abiogenesis) -- i.e. it has weather, complex hydrocarbon compounds, etc.
- fhars 12y ago
  That is one of the questions this mission is intended to contribute to. Yes, the current theories would expect that, but they would also expect the observable universe to be swarming with intelligent life, which it doesn't (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox). We are still looking for the Great Filter, and if Titan is still viably pre-biotic but lifeless, it would point to the optimisitc outlook that life is less common than thought and that the filter may actually be in our past. If, on the other hand, there is independent complex life on titan, things look less good for us, as that points to a Great Filter later in the development of life.
  - kalms 12y ago
    "... swarming with intelligent life, which it doesn't ..." And you know this, how? The universe is a pretty big place.
pling 12y ago
I love NASA's conceptual art, but I think they used MSpaint for this one: http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/matthies.jpg http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/matthies.jpg
- bsilvereagle 12y ago
  I have a feeling that image was created in MS paint solely for a proof of concept slide deck. Then the engineer/team behind it got swamped in the new amounts of paperwork to do with their proposal and didn't get a chance to do a better rendering. Or the image was associated with the project in their slides and a PR rep just lifted the image for the webpage without consulting the team.
twic 12y ago
> mission concepts to date have had either no mobility (landers), no surface access (balloons and airplanes), or low maturity, high risk, and/or high development costs for this environment (e,g. large, self-sufficient, long-duration helicopters). How come helicopters have surface access but balloons don't? Why does NASA think you can't land a balloon? Landing balloons were proposed for Mars: http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/balloons/mars_overview.htm http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/balloons/mars_overview.htm And we operate rather a number of them here on Earth. What's the problem? Has the idea of autonomous landing balloons been written off altogether? Or is there something about Titan which makes them impractical? If the latter, it would apparently have to be something that leaves a 10kg battery-powered helicopter plausible.
- ibisum 12y ago
  >How come helicopters have surface access but balloons don't? Why does NASA think you can't land a balloon? Atmospheric pressure differential being what it is, there are only certain regions that the balloon can operate. The point is, there are only certain regions the copters can operate too, but by combining both the entire spectrum can be covered.

36 points by ca98am79 12y ago

na85 12y ago

I just plain love NASA.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

zwilliamson 12y ago

I would like to see more of my tax dollars going to an endeavor like this.

bsilvereagle 12y ago
Inform your Congressman: http://www.contactingthecongress.org/ http://www.contactingthecongress.org/

Cogito 12y ago

As I understand it, they want to perform a feasibility study to determine if a mothership (balloon or lander) and daughtership (rotorcraft, maybe a quadcopter) combination would be an effective way to study Titan. The mothership would act as a base of operations; a recharging station at the least, probably containing communication devices and its own sensors as well. The daughtership, potentially multiple daughterships, would sortie out from the mothership and investigate the surface up close. They outline 4 outcomes from the initial study: (1) develop mission concepts of operations for deployment from a lander or balloon to acquire context imaging and mapping data, to sample from solid surfaces and/or lakes, and to return to the mothership to deposit samples and/or recharge; (2) develop a parametric sizing model of the daughtercraft to characterize propulsion, power, range, endurance, and payload capability for total daughtercraft mass ranging from approximately 1 to 10 kg; (3) develop a conceptual design and identify representative components for the entire daughtercraft hardware and software system for autonomous mobility, including estimates of approximate mass, power, and energy budgets and producing a representative CAD model; and (4) develop a conceptual design and preliminary CAD model for a science payload on the daughtercraft, including specifying a nominal instrument suite on the balloon or lander, designing a compatible sampling mechanism to acquire solid and/or liquid samples on the daughtercraft, and studying mechanisms and daughtercraft behaviors necessary to transfer the samples to the instruments. The study will be carried out by JPL. ---- I wonder how much the rotorcraft community (hobbyist or otherwise) could contribute to a study like this. I can imagine this would be extremely interesting, and not so different from the many applications already being investigated.

austinz 12y ago
This is the sort of stuff I would love to work on, as an engineer. Amazing new applications of technology coupled with a truly meaningful purpose.
- zaroth 12y ago
  Any ideas in particular?
ibisum 12y ago
I'm part-way through building a plane at the moment, which will play host to a small quadcopter with its own video feed, so this story feels a lot like whats going on in my workshop. The intention is to build an automated system that will send the plane to a location, drop the quad, do a video survey, pick the quad back up, and fly back. This is purely for hobby purposes, as I am very interested in automatic flight systems, and while its too late for me to pursue a career in aerospace proper, its at least a means to fulfill my dreams of having such devices under my control. I think that the next 5 or 10 years of innovation in aerospace is going to come from the RC/UAV hobbyists who are pushing the boundaries of drone technology. Already we are seeing in the RC world massive leaps in drone automation, which have immediate uses in the real world, and it doesn't look like its going to stop. There's not a day that goes by where someone hasn't released an innovative new aspect of drone technology - whether its flight, construction, recovery, or application.
- bsilvereagle 12y ago
  What's the wingspan on your plane? I built one (~36") that had two quads nested inside the wings, the wing bottoms opened up, causing the plane to go nose up, the quads slid out, the wings shut, and normal flight was resumed.
  - fit2rule 12y ago
    My current wing design is 1.5meters wide, and will have the quad mounted under the fuse at slightly-forward of CG. Trim will reconfigure for the added weight, but I'm using a small quad so the pitch trim shouldn't be too detrimental, but there are other solutions to this problem too (moving ballast). Its still early days yet, but I hope to have maiden in the next few weeks.

mbenjaminsmith 12y ago

> Titan is the richest laboratory in the solar system for studying prebiotic chemistry Does that mean prebiotic environment + time != biotic environment? Is this NASA being conservative and managing expectations? I'm probably incorrect in assuming this but given our current theories about abiogenesis you would think either the environment isn't viably pre-biotic or it would be full on biotic by now. If it is, say, quasi-prebiotic wouldn't that make it much less valuable for study if the goal is to understand the origin of life? I think this suggests they're either downplaying the mission as a search for life or overstating the value of studying the moon as a "prebiotic" environment.

Figs 12y ago
I think all they mean by "prebiotic" is that Titan is similar to models that scientists have proposed for what the Earth might have been like before there was life (assuming abiogenesis) -- i.e. it has weather, complex hydrocarbon compounds, etc.
fhars 12y ago
That is one of the questions this mission is intended to contribute to. Yes, the current theories would expect that, but they would also expect the observable universe to be swarming with intelligent life, which it doesn't (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox). We are still looking for the Great Filter, and if Titan is still viably pre-biotic but lifeless, it would point to the optimisitc outlook that life is less common than thought and that the filter may actually be in our past. If, on the other hand, there is independent complex life on titan, things look less good for us, as that points to a Great Filter later in the development of life.
- kalms 12y ago
  "... swarming with intelligent life, which it doesn't ..." And you know this, how? The universe is a pretty big place.

pling 12y ago

I love NASA's conceptual art, but I think they used MSpaint for this one: http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/matthies.jpg http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/matthies.jpg

bsilvereagle 12y ago
I have a feeling that image was created in MS paint solely for a proof of concept slide deck. Then the engineer/team behind it got swamped in the new amounts of paperwork to do with their proposal and didn't get a chance to do a better rendering. Or the image was associated with the project in their slides and a PR rep just lifted the image for the webpage without consulting the team.

twic 12y ago

> mission concepts to date have had either no mobility (landers), no surface access (balloons and airplanes), or low maturity, high risk, and/or high development costs for this environment (e,g. large, self-sufficient, long-duration helicopters). How come helicopters have surface access but balloons don't? Why does NASA think you can't land a balloon? Landing balloons were proposed for Mars: http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/balloons/mars_overview.htm http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/adv_tech/balloons/mars_overview.htm And we operate rather a number of them here on Earth. What's the problem? Has the idea of autonomous landing balloons been written off altogether? Or is there something about Titan which makes them impractical? If the latter, it would apparently have to be something that leaves a 10kg battery-powered helicopter plausible.

ibisum 12y ago
>How come helicopters have surface access but balloons don't? Why does NASA think you can't land a balloon? Atmospheric pressure differential being what it is, there are only certain regions that the balloon can operate. The point is, there are only certain regions the copters can operate too, but by combining both the entire spectrum can be covered.