3 ms·

ok, honestly unless you are already a millionare, (or on the path to be one), I'd say you done a major disservice to yourself and I'd say you were not wise enou

by ardit33 19y ago

ok, honestly unless you are already a millionare, (or on the path to be one), I'd say you done a major disservice to yourself and I'd say you were not wise enough. College for me was lots of work (and b.s.) but lots of fun also. Work hard, get good grades, party, have fun, screw girls... repeat. Eventually gets tiring, but remember, you will be working for the rest of your life, why start the pain earlier? There are plenty of very successful, (and very rich) people that skiped, or quit college, but you don't hear much about the hundreds of thousands that quit college, and had much harder time on your life.

rms 19y ago
That was true 25 years ago when college was a ticket to a successful life. But it's not true for Generation Y, when college for many people is a meaningless waste of $100,000 that qualifies them to do absolutely nothing. We have to make our own lives, with or without college. I'm dropping out after this semester and never looking back.
- donal 19y ago
  As someone that reads resumes and works with both degree and non-degree individuals, I couldn't disagree with a statement more. The difference in quality of work between those with degrees and those without is significant. It is even possible to distinguish those with some college over those without any. Like any generality, there are specific counter-examples, but the people that will need to judge you quickly by little pieces of information are very likely to skip over you. That is unless you have some amazing thing on your resume. I did ok in undergrad (3.4), but I'm finding that as I tackle a masters full-time will working full-time I am rocking... Funny what perspective and motivation working gives you.
  - rms 19y ago
    What I meant was that even with college, many people utterly fail at life because there aren't as many opportunities as there used to be. I'm sure that if you are evaluating programmers the average programmer with a CS degree will be better than the self-taught person. I know that not having a degree hurts me severely in a traditional job pool. I don't care. If I need to submit my resume to get a job, I will have failed miserably. I think I would choose street life over working for the man. I probably couldn't get a real job anyways, because I don't have very many skills or qualifications. Despite my lack of skills, qualifications, and especially motivation, I am confident that I have the instinct necessary to manage successful and obscenely profitable companies.
  - jey 19y ago
    "the people that will need to judge you quickly by little pieces of information are very likely to skip over you. That is unless you have some amazing thing on your resume." Exactly, so we should be telling people that college is the backup option. Try to do some impressive and interesting stuff, and if you succeed, you've got a free ticket out of college. If not, you can always just do the safe thing and go to college. I admit this wasn't my plan, and that dropping out of college was an act of desperation in response to the pain it caused me. I just happened to have enough stuff with which to fill out my resume since I had been interested in CS and programming for a long time.
- ardit33 19y ago
  "But it's not true for Generation Y, when college for many people is a meaningless waste of $100,000 that qualifies them to do absolutely nothing." --Or you can be really smart, and get a free academic ride as I did, or go to schools (state schools) that don't cost too much and are decent. You can get a DECENT (maybe not the greatest) education for LESS money in this country, you just have to try hard. Remember, often in undergrad, it is what you do that matters the most. Once you go for Masters/Ph. then the school where you go matters a lot more. For some wierd reason, the people that I met that didn't go to college but went straight working (usually during 98-2000 boom), even thou are very smart, and did well are somewhat rough on the edges. It is hard to point it out, but they just don't seem well refined...
  - tyler 19y ago
    "they just don't seem well refined..." I'm not sure if you're talking about all degrees, or just CS... However, speaking specifically about CS, I believe that my lack of refinement comes not from lack of Computer Science courses, but from lack of Math. There is not much that an undergrad CS education teaches that I have not learned on my own over the past few years. However, I find that when I'm delving into deeper magic, my lack of math comes into sharp perspective. Most recently, this came up while I was hacking together a recommendation engine. Sure, I can read a few articles and throw something together that works. But, when it comes to fine tuning it... I'm lost. By the way, I'm a 22 year old hacker who did not go to college (yet). And I'm taking a Linear Algebra class right now to alleviate some of this problem anyway... heh.
    - mrtron 19y ago
      Linear algebra will not help you fine tune many algorithms. The best math to know for fine tuning algorithms is how big O notation works, and be able to calculate how long things take to run. The second thing that will help you is studying data structures algorithms. What is the average case for a search over x items? How long does it take to insert into a linked list? This way you can begin to identify bottlenecks, and get an idea as to how to approach solving problems with performance.
jey 19y ago
I don't see work as pain, school is pain. So far I have had the luxury of picking and choosing jobs so that I only take the interesting ones. Granted, maybe tomorrow everyone without a degree will be ignored regardless of what their actual qualifications are, but I'll take that chance. I don't want to work for someone who places such an importance on having a degree anyway. I want to work for someone who hires me for my ability to do work, so I think demonstrating that ability to do work is more important than getting some piece of paper. A Bachelor's degree is just a certificate of minimal competence anyway. A significant fraction of people with BS CS degrees can't even write simple programs. There's plenty of other ways to demonstrate minimal competence than to get an undergrad degree. So, anyway -- why's it so important to have a degree? Everything they teach (and much more!) is available in the form of dead trees at my local library. I can party with my friends regardless of whether I'm in college or not, plus now I can afford awesome beer. What else is left?
- jey 19y ago
  Addendum: I'm especially interested in hearing arguments for why I should finish my degree. I try not to be dogmatic about any views and am continually open to new data/ideas to refine my thoughts, so if you know of some compelling reasons, I'm all ears.
  - jdvolz 19y ago
    My reason is that my mom wants me to. I figure she did take care of me all those years, I might have to go back and get a degree once I'm well off.
  - jimbokun 19y ago
    Maybe not fulfilling all of the requirements for a degree per se, but Phillip Greenspun finds a university a great source of entertainment. "Taking advantage of my location in Cambridge, I have sat in on some classes at MIT in Atmospheric Physics, Biology, and Geology. I also teach a software engineering lab course at MIT every three or four semesters (textbook). But for me, the university has mostly been a source of entertainment; I have never looked to it as a source of income." http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science (Appendix E) So the compelling reason might not be that getting a degree will impress other people, but that learning is a fun and enriching experience. Yes, there are dead trees in libraries, but lectures, being able to ask questions to someone who is an expert in what you want to learn, and collaborating with peers who also want to learn are difficult to duplicate with only dead trees.
rms 19y ago
Also, presumably everyone on this site that is starting a company or working for an early stage startup is on the path to being a millionaire. I like to think that I'm on the billionaire path.
- falsestprophet 19y ago
  At the very least, your ego is impressive. And sometimes that is enough. See Mark Cuban.
  - rms 19y ago
    Man, I can't wait until I can swear at basketball referees from the sidelines.
- jimbokun 19y ago
  "I like to think that I'm on the billionaire path." It's not clear that there is any billionaire path. Multi-millionaire, sure. There are lots of ways to achieve that through skill and hard work. But the billionaire path is being on the multi-millionaire path, having an extremely rare opportunity serendipitously present itself to you, recognizing it, and then making a long series of good decisions without any major missteps. There is a lot on that path you have not control over. Talent, effort, and even wisdom are probably not enough to keep you on it by themselves.
  - yters 19y ago
    Hey, there are a surprising number of billionaires today.

by ardit33 19y ago

rms 19y ago

That was true 25 years ago when college was a ticket to a successful life. But it's not true for Generation Y, when college for many people is a meaningless waste of $100,000 that qualifies them to do absolutely nothing. We have to make our own lives, with or without college. I'm dropping out after this semester and never looking back.

donal 19y ago
As someone that reads resumes and works with both degree and non-degree individuals, I couldn't disagree with a statement more. The difference in quality of work between those with degrees and those without is significant. It is even possible to distinguish those with some college over those without any. Like any generality, there are specific counter-examples, but the people that will need to judge you quickly by little pieces of information are very likely to skip over you. That is unless you have some amazing thing on your resume. I did ok in undergrad (3.4), but I'm finding that as I tackle a masters full-time will working full-time I am rocking... Funny what perspective and motivation working gives you.
- rms 19y ago
  What I meant was that even with college, many people utterly fail at life because there aren't as many opportunities as there used to be. I'm sure that if you are evaluating programmers the average programmer with a CS degree will be better than the self-taught person. I know that not having a degree hurts me severely in a traditional job pool. I don't care. If I need to submit my resume to get a job, I will have failed miserably. I think I would choose street life over working for the man. I probably couldn't get a real job anyways, because I don't have very many skills or qualifications. Despite my lack of skills, qualifications, and especially motivation, I am confident that I have the instinct necessary to manage successful and obscenely profitable companies.
- jey 19y ago
  "the people that will need to judge you quickly by little pieces of information are very likely to skip over you. That is unless you have some amazing thing on your resume." Exactly, so we should be telling people that college is the backup option. Try to do some impressive and interesting stuff, and if you succeed, you've got a free ticket out of college. If not, you can always just do the safe thing and go to college. I admit this wasn't my plan, and that dropping out of college was an act of desperation in response to the pain it caused me. I just happened to have enough stuff with which to fill out my resume since I had been interested in CS and programming for a long time.
ardit33 19y ago
"But it's not true for Generation Y, when college for many people is a meaningless waste of $100,000 that qualifies them to do absolutely nothing." --Or you can be really smart, and get a free academic ride as I did, or go to schools (state schools) that don't cost too much and are decent. You can get a DECENT (maybe not the greatest) education for LESS money in this country, you just have to try hard. Remember, often in undergrad, it is what you do that matters the most. Once you go for Masters/Ph. then the school where you go matters a lot more. For some wierd reason, the people that I met that didn't go to college but went straight working (usually during 98-2000 boom), even thou are very smart, and did well are somewhat rough on the edges. It is hard to point it out, but they just don't seem well refined...
- tyler 19y ago
  "they just don't seem well refined..." I'm not sure if you're talking about all degrees, or just CS... However, speaking specifically about CS, I believe that my lack of refinement comes not from lack of Computer Science courses, but from lack of Math. There is not much that an undergrad CS education teaches that I have not learned on my own over the past few years. However, I find that when I'm delving into deeper magic, my lack of math comes into sharp perspective. Most recently, this came up while I was hacking together a recommendation engine. Sure, I can read a few articles and throw something together that works. But, when it comes to fine tuning it... I'm lost. By the way, I'm a 22 year old hacker who did not go to college (yet). And I'm taking a Linear Algebra class right now to alleviate some of this problem anyway... heh.
  - mrtron 19y ago
    Linear algebra will not help you fine tune many algorithms. The best math to know for fine tuning algorithms is how big O notation works, and be able to calculate how long things take to run. The second thing that will help you is studying data structures algorithms. What is the average case for a search over x items? How long does it take to insert into a linked list? This way you can begin to identify bottlenecks, and get an idea as to how to approach solving problems with performance.

jey 19y ago

I don't see work as pain, school is pain. So far I have had the luxury of picking and choosing jobs so that I only take the interesting ones. Granted, maybe tomorrow everyone without a degree will be ignored regardless of what their actual qualifications are, but I'll take that chance. I don't want to work for someone who places such an importance on having a degree anyway. I want to work for someone who hires me for my ability to do work, so I think demonstrating that ability to do work is more important than getting some piece of paper. A Bachelor's degree is just a certificate of minimal competence anyway. A significant fraction of people with BS CS degrees can't even write simple programs. There's plenty of other ways to demonstrate minimal competence than to get an undergrad degree. So, anyway -- why's it so important to have a degree? Everything they teach (and much more!) is available in the form of dead trees at my local library. I can party with my friends regardless of whether I'm in college or not, plus now I can afford awesome beer. What else is left?

jey 19y ago
Addendum: I'm especially interested in hearing arguments for why I should finish my degree. I try not to be dogmatic about any views and am continually open to new data/ideas to refine my thoughts, so if you know of some compelling reasons, I'm all ears.
- jdvolz 19y ago
  My reason is that my mom wants me to. I figure she did take care of me all those years, I might have to go back and get a degree once I'm well off.
- jimbokun 19y ago
  Maybe not fulfilling all of the requirements for a degree per se, but Phillip Greenspun finds a university a great source of entertainment. "Taking advantage of my location in Cambridge, I have sat in on some classes at MIT in Atmospheric Physics, Biology, and Geology. I also teach a software engineering lab course at MIT every three or four semesters (textbook). But for me, the university has mostly been a source of entertainment; I have never looked to it as a source of income." http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science (Appendix E) So the compelling reason might not be that getting a degree will impress other people, but that learning is a fun and enriching experience. Yes, there are dead trees in libraries, but lectures, being able to ask questions to someone who is an expert in what you want to learn, and collaborating with peers who also want to learn are difficult to duplicate with only dead trees.

rms 19y ago

Also, presumably everyone on this site that is starting a company or working for an early stage startup is on the path to being a millionaire. I like to think that I'm on the billionaire path.

falsestprophet 19y ago
At the very least, your ego is impressive. And sometimes that is enough. See Mark Cuban.
- rms 19y ago
  Man, I can't wait until I can swear at basketball referees from the sidelines.
jimbokun 19y ago
"I like to think that I'm on the billionaire path." It's not clear that there is any billionaire path. Multi-millionaire, sure. There are lots of ways to achieve that through skill and hard work. But the billionaire path is being on the multi-millionaire path, having an extremely rare opportunity serendipitously present itself to you, recognizing it, and then making a long series of good decisions without any major missteps. There is a lot on that path you have not control over. Talent, effort, and even wisdom are probably not enough to keep you on it by themselves.
- yters 19y ago
  Hey, there are a surprising number of billionaires today.