5 ms·

Is the answer really everyone having a degree? People think more people going to college is the answer to the current economic malaise, but I think it just lead

by drpgq 12y ago

Is the answer really everyone having a degree? People think more people going to college is the answer to the current economic malaise, but I think it just leads to more and more people fighting over the same sized piece of pie.

nightski 12y ago
Isn't that pretty much what an economy is? Everyone fighting over the same sized piece of the pie? Free access to education is never a bad thing. They aren't forcing the employees to take it.
- lukasm 12y ago
  It is not. If there is a growth the pie is bigger. The problem is the correlation between better income and degree is weak.
  - judk 12y ago
    Which is why free education is better than taking out loans, a point in favor of this program.
  - enjo 12y ago
    The problem is the correlation between better income and degree is weak Oh is it?
  - shrikant 12y ago
    This is just ill-informed. Just one among a multitude of links showing a strong correlation between formal educational credentials and income: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-to-college/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of...
hindsightbias 12y ago
One could say the answer is to grow the pie. Not sure how you do that with less education.
esturk 12y ago
No, but going to college is not necessarily for a BS/BA degree. Take a pharmacy technician for example. You need to at least complete community college and get a certificate.
- aestra 12y ago
  >Take a pharmacy technician for example. You need to at least complete community college and get a certificate. That's not correct http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacy-technicians.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacy-technicians.htm >Entry-Level Education High school diploma or equivalent I knew people who were working as a pharmacy tech as their high school job. You don't even need a certificate.
mwsherman 12y ago
This seems like a variation on the lump of labor fallacy.[1] Now, the acquisition of a degree might or might not be everything we think it is, where “formal education” and “valuable learning” are perhaps-incorrectly equated. But if we assume that college is economically valuable, having more people educated seems hard to argue with. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
epoxyhockey 12y ago
Focus on the part about having a more educated population. Educated persons tend to vote for candidates aligned with their best interests, spend money more wisely, and commit less crime. More educated peers and neighbors will make your life better.
- ryanfreeborn 12y ago
  Yup. Couldn't agree more with this response. There is this growing contrarian sentiment—particularly in the HN and Reddit communities—that "college isn't for everyone". The college industrial complex aside, I cannot see how further education—particularly through programs like this one—could ever be a bad thing. After all, education is the silver bullet.
  - Chronic28 12y ago
    People are not actually learning. They are simply "along for the ride" while memorizing for tests so they can land a job and forget most of the things they've learned. Perhaps we should improve our secondary education as we are lacking on that front in America instead of encouraging everyone to take 4 more years out of their working lives.
    - jimmaswell 12y ago
      I've witnessed this, myself. It shows itself as a lot of questions about what's going to be on a test instead of trying to understand the material.
  - gaius 12y ago
    There are many important, useful, societally and culturally valuable things, that are not best suited to being studied as an academic degree.
  - aestra 12y ago
    >I cannot see how further education—particularly through programs like this one—could ever be a bad thing Opportunity costs for one.
zghst 12y ago
I agree with your sentiment. For instance, I have a friend who went to college but never used her degree, she is a stay at home mom. I feel that the cost of college is inflated by those who go to college just to go. Sure it's nice to have a degree, but I feel that college should be taken more seriously and not to be used as a babysitting/maturing center for 18-20somethings. Just because one gets a college education does not mean they leave enlightened and educated OR that they will maintain their education through their life. An ASU online education, especially, will not ensure that people are education, credentialed sure, but definitely not educated, and I say this as an ASU student myself. They are always trying to get more and more people through the doors, we have a high acceptance rate but strangely enough we are a top school for recruiting.
- e12e 12y ago
  > I agree with your sentiment. For instance, I have a friend who went to college but never used her degree, she is a stay at home mom. Is she dead? If not, how do you know she will never use her degree? (Apart from probably being a better parent by virtue of being more educated, and so probably be a better educational aid to her child (ren)).
  - zghst 12y ago
    Well she's been out of school for a while so if she wanted to apply her degree with no experience she will be tossed around the job market and will probably have to either start her own business, which I applaud, or take the sadder route which is work from the very bottom again, maybe getting another degree. I have been in school for a while to see older people return to renew their education, and while it's good that they are, it is very sad and cringeworthy sometimes. When they are using computers, or trying to work through material they struggle much more than their younger peers, and on top of that they have liabilities and kids/family to take care of, add that with age discrimination today on top of the ridiculous job requirements, you can feel their slight bursts of hopelessness, trapped in a world that has moved very far ahead of them. ='(
    - dagw 12y ago
rz2k 12y ago
>[...seem to think] college is the answer to the current economic malaise, but I think it just leads to more and more people fighting over the same sized piece of pie That's a pretty outrageous statement. You're still a person if you don't go to college. Furthermore, if those who go to college earn a greater share of the pie, then it is because they are more productive. If they are more productive, then the pie gets larger by going to college. In fact, the fundamentals of pricing theory suggest that the value to an individual, in terms of compensation for greater productivity, tends to be the floor in how much it costs employers and therefore the aggregate economy. For example, if you acquire new skills that make you produce an extra 1M per year, then your change in compensation will not exceed a $1M increase if you are negotiating with sane and informed people.
ctdonath 12y ago
A related issue few address: how many are willing to do what it takes to work thru an education of whatever level is available? As a sometime professor, I was amazed that about 1/4th of students just didn't do the work (and that's of those who were in fact in the classroom, so the educational opportunity was right there). Sending the unwilling to college doesn't work. I'd like to know what percentage of "the uncolleged" really want to go, will do what it takes, and intend to actually do something with it afterwards. Just showing up isn't enough, no amount of money will make people learn if they are not inclined to, and no range of opportunity will assure success if they don't actually work at work.
arnarbi 12y ago
> ..it just leads to more and more people fighting over the same sized piece of pie. Wait, you say that as if its a bad thing. Giving more people the means to fight over the pie is exactly what you'd want. In particular, you'd want to disconnect "already having a large piece" from "being able to fight over more", which is exactly what free education does.

by drpgq 12y ago

nightski 12y ago

Isn't that pretty much what an economy is? Everyone fighting over the same sized piece of the pie? Free access to education is never a bad thing. They aren't forcing the employees to take it.

lukasm 12y ago
It is not. If there is a growth the pie is bigger. The problem is the correlation between better income and degree is weak.
- judk 12y ago
  Which is why free education is better than taking out loans, a point in favor of this program.
- enjo 12y ago
  The problem is the correlation between better income and degree is weak Oh is it?
- shrikant 12y ago
  This is just ill-informed. Just one among a multitude of links showing a strong correlation between formal educational credentials and income: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-to-college/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of...

hindsightbias 12y ago

One could say the answer is to grow the pie. Not sure how you do that with less education.

esturk 12y ago

No, but going to college is not necessarily for a BS/BA degree. Take a pharmacy technician for example. You need to at least complete community college and get a certificate.

aestra 12y ago
>Take a pharmacy technician for example. You need to at least complete community college and get a certificate. That's not correct http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacy-technicians.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacy-technicians.htm >Entry-Level Education High school diploma or equivalent I knew people who were working as a pharmacy tech as their high school job. You don't even need a certificate.

mwsherman 12y ago

This seems like a variation on the lump of labor fallacy.[1] Now, the acquisition of a degree might or might not be everything we think it is, where “formal education” and “valuable learning” are perhaps-incorrectly equated. But if we assume that college is economically valuable, having more people educated seems hard to argue with. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

epoxyhockey 12y ago

Focus on the part about having a more educated population. Educated persons tend to vote for candidates aligned with their best interests, spend money more wisely, and commit less crime. More educated peers and neighbors will make your life better.

ryanfreeborn 12y ago
Yup. Couldn't agree more with this response. There is this growing contrarian sentiment—particularly in the HN and Reddit communities—that "college isn't for everyone". The college industrial complex aside, I cannot see how further education—particularly through programs like this one—could ever be a bad thing. After all, education is the silver bullet.
- Chronic28 12y ago
  People are not actually learning. They are simply "along for the ride" while memorizing for tests so they can land a job and forget most of the things they've learned. Perhaps we should improve our secondary education as we are lacking on that front in America instead of encouraging everyone to take 4 more years out of their working lives.
  - jimmaswell 12y ago
    I've witnessed this, myself. It shows itself as a lot of questions about what's going to be on a test instead of trying to understand the material.
- gaius 12y ago
  There are many important, useful, societally and culturally valuable things, that are not best suited to being studied as an academic degree.
- aestra 12y ago
  >I cannot see how further education—particularly through programs like this one—could ever be a bad thing Opportunity costs for one.

zghst 12y ago

I agree with your sentiment. For instance, I have a friend who went to college but never used her degree, she is a stay at home mom. I feel that the cost of college is inflated by those who go to college just to go. Sure it's nice to have a degree, but I feel that college should be taken more seriously and not to be used as a babysitting/maturing center for 18-20somethings. Just because one gets a college education does not mean they leave enlightened and educated OR that they will maintain their education through their life. An ASU online education, especially, will not ensure that people are education, credentialed sure, but definitely not educated, and I say this as an ASU student myself. They are always trying to get more and more people through the doors, we have a high acceptance rate but strangely enough we are a top school for recruiting.

e12e 12y ago
> I agree with your sentiment. For instance, I have a friend who went to college but never used her degree, she is a stay at home mom. Is she dead? If not, how do you know she will never use her degree? (Apart from probably being a better parent by virtue of being more educated, and so probably be a better educational aid to her child (ren)).
- zghst 12y ago
  Well she's been out of school for a while so if she wanted to apply her degree with no experience she will be tossed around the job market and will probably have to either start her own business, which I applaud, or take the sadder route which is work from the very bottom again, maybe getting another degree. I have been in school for a while to see older people return to renew their education, and while it's good that they are, it is very sad and cringeworthy sometimes. When they are using computers, or trying to work through material they struggle much more than their younger peers, and on top of that they have liabilities and kids/family to take care of, add that with age discrimination today on top of the ridiculous job requirements, you can feel their slight bursts of hopelessness, trapped in a world that has moved very far ahead of them. ='(
  - dagw 12y ago

rz2k 12y ago

>[...seem to think] college is the answer to the current economic malaise, but I think it just leads to more and more people fighting over the same sized piece of pie That's a pretty outrageous statement. You're still a person if you don't go to college. Furthermore, if those who go to college earn a greater share of the pie, then it is because they are more productive. If they are more productive, then the pie gets larger by going to college. In fact, the fundamentals of pricing theory suggest that the value to an individual, in terms of compensation for greater productivity, tends to be the floor in how much it costs employers and therefore the aggregate economy. For example, if you acquire new skills that make you produce an extra 1M per year, then your change in compensation will not exceed a $1M increase if you are negotiating with sane and informed people.

ctdonath 12y ago

A related issue few address: how many are willing to do what it takes to work thru an education of whatever level is available? As a sometime professor, I was amazed that about 1/4th of students just didn't do the work (and that's of those who were in fact in the classroom, so the educational opportunity was right there). Sending the unwilling to college doesn't work. I'd like to know what percentage of "the uncolleged" really want to go, will do what it takes, and intend to actually do something with it afterwards. Just showing up isn't enough, no amount of money will make people learn if they are not inclined to, and no range of opportunity will assure success if they don't actually work at work.

arnarbi 12y ago

> ..it just leads to more and more people fighting over the same sized piece of pie. Wait, you say that as if its a bad thing. Giving more people the means to fight over the pie is exactly what you'd want. In particular, you'd want to disconnect "already having a large piece" from "being able to fight over more", which is exactly what free education does.