5 ms·

I enjoyed your post. I have a couple of thoughts / suggestions for you. I got the impression that the underlying motivation for writing the post, and tactic yo

by ajsharp 12y ago

I enjoyed your post. I have a couple of thoughts / suggestions for you. I got the impression that the underlying motivation for writing the post, and tactic you used for justifying your positions was largely in response to what I would consider the overly myopic hacker news user base. That is, disproportionately white, male, curmudgeoney programmers. I sympathize with your frustration, but urge you not to let their world-view cloud yours, or cause you to search for complicated answers to simple questions. An example of what I mean: > I believe the current skepticism around Silicon Valley's "Make The World a Better Place" mentality is deeply rooted in historical anxiety about institutional capitalism. On this point, I urge you to consider a much simpler explanation: that people are skeptical because there is much to be skeptical of. People like Musk are a rare breed in Silicon Valley. Today's tech "entrepreneur" rarely looks like Elon Musk, someone who genuinely seems to want to do good things for the world. The skeptisism exists because there are a lot of startups doing plain silly things, masked in global do-goodery marketing narrative. Startups are the new gold rush, today's investment banking. But the west coast has much different cultural norms towards opulent wealth than does the east coast. Put simply, we like to hide it out here, they like to flaunt it out there. Thus, "we're making the world a better place" instead of something like The Wolf of Wall Street. Still, I enjoyed your post and your choice of using macro-economic theory as a lens through which to view this. Thanks for writing.

hindsightbias 12y ago
Yes, I'd like to see the evidence that someone like Musk, Wozniak, and maybe arguably Jobs, are not just outliers. As for his mention of the WWW, I don't credit the valley for all that and wonder if Vint Cerf has emoted about his mentality when coding TCP/IP. > cultural norms Not sure about that, unless you consider it a very recent 'value.' There was quite a bit of flaunting during the dot-com era.
- krmmalik 12y ago
  I know of one person personally and by extension one or two more that are very much like Elon Musk. Joel Gascoigne from Buffer for example. He's taking a very similar approach to things, especially if you look at how transparent he is about himself and his company. They've set a lot of waves in their space.
jon2512chua 12y ago
> Today's tech "entrepreneur" rarely looks like Elon Musk, someone who genuinely seems to want to do good things for the world. The skeptisism exists because there are a lot of startups doing plain silly things, masked in global do-goodery marketing narrative. I would say that it's more of today's entrepreneur genuinely believe that they're doing good, but are just terribly misguided. Of course, that's just how it feels to me.
natural219 12y ago
Actually, I agree with you more than you'd think. After living in San Francisco for a year or two, I'm absolutely skeptical toward 99% of the stuff that's passed off as "Silicon Valley revolutionary" crap. I'm pretty much only interested in pure technology: SpaceX/Tesla, new hardware manufacturing / internet of things, drones, immersive computing, bitcoin (to some extent), etc. Which is why, I think, I can enjoy the HBO show thoroughly while still lamenting about "where did all the hackers go"
- api 12y ago
  The hacker has been partly replaced by the hustler, and that sucks. But there are still hackers around. There's also things that the hacker can learn from the hustler, like how to take something early or minimal and make it self-supporting. In a sense the hustler is a kind of hacker. The problem is that hustlers are often just hustle... not enough substance. But when you have substance and hustle, that's powerful. I do get turned off by all the self-congratulation coming out of the Valley. It's important to listen to criticism. Sometimes the critics have a point. In particular, a lot of the optimism out of the valley sounds dangerously close to "let them eat cake!" to the rest of America. (News flash! Most of America is more or less in a long shallow depression right now.)
- ajsharp 12y ago
  Cool. Yea, I really enjoyed the HBO show too (especially in the beginning, the writing tailed off a bit mid-season). The satire around "making the world a better place" was the first thing that jumped out at me and hooked me initially.
- r00fus 12y ago
  SF is a whole different ball game. Go south on the peninsula and towards the real "valley" and you'll get a more relaxed/grounded viewpoint (most families are priced out of SF unless they're DINKY or DISK [1]). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DINKY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DINKY
joeq 12y ago
In NYC, the sharks don't pretend they aren't.
marincounty 12y ago
I don't want to start a east coast vs. west coast feud over how rich boys spend their money, but there's a difference. I can spot an east coast transplant, even after they lose the accent--and they think, and spend their money differently too. There are always exceptions, but in my world East coast men are more competitive, less empathetic, and have taken more money out of my pocket than west coast men. Yes--I'm stereotyping, but in my world I try to avoid doing business with people who grew up in highly populated areas of the east coast. It's harder to make money on the east coast. I couldn't imagine trying to compete in New York. I'll get beat up over this post, "down voted", whatever--I've just noticed real differences in people between the two coasts. I'm tired of being so polite--oops I did it again.
- bpyne 12y ago
  Interesting observation. Being a native Northeasterner, I'd love to know more about the spending patterns of East Coast men even if it's a wild generalization. I was in NYC over the weekend and Los Angeles - for my first time - back in April. Both large cities with large populations. Both trips were for mostly pleasure. In NYC I stayed in Williamsburg; in LA I stayed in Silver Lake. LA had a very laid back feel to it. Maybe it has to do with all the space. NYC is pure congestion. Wherever you are, a few hundred people around you are trying to pass through that same space. It keeps you moving, hustling to keep from being run over or an obstacle. I loved both cities, but they have very different "feels".
  - the_watcher 12y ago
    LA is also nearly always sunny and comfortable, so there's always a large number of people that just decided to spend the day outside, relaxing.
- malyk 12y ago
  I grew up in the DC area and lived there for 8 years after college. Moved to SF (now Oakland) 6.5 years ago. I'm not sure it's truly accurate, but the east coast, DC and NYC in particular, feel like a dog-eat-dog, I'll do anything to get ahead, kind of place while the bay area feels like a much more friendly competitive environment. Whatever the cause, there is a very real difference in attitude between the two coasts.
couchand 12y ago
But the west coast has much different cultural norms towards opulent wealth than does the east coast. Put simply, we like to hide it out here And from what I understand, use it to hide the beach from poor folks, too.
- ajsharp 12y ago
  Zing!

by ajsharp 12y ago

hindsightbias 12y ago

Yes, I'd like to see the evidence that someone like Musk, Wozniak, and maybe arguably Jobs, are not just outliers. As for his mention of the WWW, I don't credit the valley for all that and wonder if Vint Cerf has emoted about his mentality when coding TCP/IP. > cultural norms Not sure about that, unless you consider it a very recent 'value.' There was quite a bit of flaunting during the dot-com era.

krmmalik 12y ago
I know of one person personally and by extension one or two more that are very much like Elon Musk. Joel Gascoigne from Buffer for example. He's taking a very similar approach to things, especially if you look at how transparent he is about himself and his company. They've set a lot of waves in their space.

jon2512chua 12y ago

> Today's tech "entrepreneur" rarely looks like Elon Musk, someone who genuinely seems to want to do good things for the world. The skeptisism exists because there are a lot of startups doing plain silly things, masked in global do-goodery marketing narrative. I would say that it's more of today's entrepreneur genuinely believe that they're doing good, but are just terribly misguided. Of course, that's just how it feels to me.

natural219 12y ago

Actually, I agree with you more than you'd think. After living in San Francisco for a year or two, I'm absolutely skeptical toward 99% of the stuff that's passed off as "Silicon Valley revolutionary" crap. I'm pretty much only interested in pure technology: SpaceX/Tesla, new hardware manufacturing / internet of things, drones, immersive computing, bitcoin (to some extent), etc. Which is why, I think, I can enjoy the HBO show thoroughly while still lamenting about "where did all the hackers go"

api 12y ago
The hacker has been partly replaced by the hustler, and that sucks. But there are still hackers around. There's also things that the hacker can learn from the hustler, like how to take something early or minimal and make it self-supporting. In a sense the hustler is a kind of hacker. The problem is that hustlers are often just hustle... not enough substance. But when you have substance and hustle, that's powerful. I do get turned off by all the self-congratulation coming out of the Valley. It's important to listen to criticism. Sometimes the critics have a point. In particular, a lot of the optimism out of the valley sounds dangerously close to "let them eat cake!" to the rest of America. (News flash! Most of America is more or less in a long shallow depression right now.)
ajsharp 12y ago
Cool. Yea, I really enjoyed the HBO show too (especially in the beginning, the writing tailed off a bit mid-season). The satire around "making the world a better place" was the first thing that jumped out at me and hooked me initially.
r00fus 12y ago
SF is a whole different ball game. Go south on the peninsula and towards the real "valley" and you'll get a more relaxed/grounded viewpoint (most families are priced out of SF unless they're DINKY or DISK [1]). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DINKY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DINKY

joeq 12y ago

In NYC, the sharks don't pretend they aren't.

marincounty 12y ago

I don't want to start a east coast vs. west coast feud over how rich boys spend their money, but there's a difference. I can spot an east coast transplant, even after they lose the accent--and they think, and spend their money differently too. There are always exceptions, but in my world East coast men are more competitive, less empathetic, and have taken more money out of my pocket than west coast men. Yes--I'm stereotyping, but in my world I try to avoid doing business with people who grew up in highly populated areas of the east coast. It's harder to make money on the east coast. I couldn't imagine trying to compete in New York. I'll get beat up over this post, "down voted", whatever--I've just noticed real differences in people between the two coasts. I'm tired of being so polite--oops I did it again.

bpyne 12y ago
Interesting observation. Being a native Northeasterner, I'd love to know more about the spending patterns of East Coast men even if it's a wild generalization. I was in NYC over the weekend and Los Angeles - for my first time - back in April. Both large cities with large populations. Both trips were for mostly pleasure. In NYC I stayed in Williamsburg; in LA I stayed in Silver Lake. LA had a very laid back feel to it. Maybe it has to do with all the space. NYC is pure congestion. Wherever you are, a few hundred people around you are trying to pass through that same space. It keeps you moving, hustling to keep from being run over or an obstacle. I loved both cities, but they have very different "feels".
- the_watcher 12y ago
  LA is also nearly always sunny and comfortable, so there's always a large number of people that just decided to spend the day outside, relaxing.
malyk 12y ago
I grew up in the DC area and lived there for 8 years after college. Moved to SF (now Oakland) 6.5 years ago. I'm not sure it's truly accurate, but the east coast, DC and NYC in particular, feel like a dog-eat-dog, I'll do anything to get ahead, kind of place while the bay area feels like a much more friendly competitive environment. Whatever the cause, there is a very real difference in attitude between the two coasts.

couchand 12y ago

But the west coast has much different cultural norms towards opulent wealth than does the east coast. Put simply, we like to hide it out here And from what I understand, use it to hide the beach from poor folks, too.

ajsharp 12y ago
Zing!