6 ms·

Evidence of fasting having value is interesting, but I wouldn't put much stock in the "wisdom of the ancestors".

by thenmar 12y ago

GlickWick 12y ago
Why not? Don't you want to attach a bunch of leeches to your stomach and bleed away that flu?
- JamesArgo 12y ago
  And come to think of it, storing dead bodies in the well was very pro-biotic.
- nkozyra 12y ago
  Well, we still use leeches today in modern medicine, so there's clearly some efficacy on display.
svasan 12y ago
Why would one want to ignore beneficial knowledge received in the form of tradition? To be able to re-invent the wheel?
- WalterSear 12y ago
  Because the past had proportionally more hucksters to scientists than today. And because a lot of that 'ancient wisdom' was invented later, by the aforementioned hucksters: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/10/traditional_chinese_medicine_origins_mao_invented_it_but_didn_t_believe.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa...
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > Why would one want to ignore beneficial knowledge received in the form of tradition? You want to be skeptical of tradition as a source of factual information because, while there exists beneficial knowledge that may be received in the form of tradition, it is impossible to reliably separate it from harmful false "knowledge" received in the form of tradition, without first turning it into knowledge derived from structured scientific information gathering.
  - svasan 12y ago
    Thanks, but no thanks to FDA approved or "scientifically" structured and tested and accredited health recommendations for me. I am willing to put to test the the traditional practices that I am (or become) aware of.
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    > it is impossible to reliably separate it from harmful false "knowledge" received in the form of tradition Evolution/Survivability of a group usually takes care of that Yeah, slightly harmful/long term harmful things will go though, but not major things. Someone discovered cheese with mold is edible (probably happened in a low food situation), but there's a high likelihood on people having tried other things with mold and it didn't work out as expected.
    - DenisM 12y ago
      >Evolution/Survivability of a group usually takes care of that Not washing hands survived for a very long time, and lead to huge child mortality. Humanity survived, but lots of people died for no good reason.
      - meric 12y ago
        A thousand years ago, it may have been more dangerous to send three times as many villagers to collect water from the river 20km away so that the village would have enough water for everyone to wash their hands, than to have people not wash their hands before eating. The benefits of a practice/tradition can vary over time. Lots of people may have died from avoidable diseases, but lots of people may also have avoided death by bandits, wild animals, and starvation. (due to more workers allocated to water collection than food production; the extra food produced may have been the difference between life and death during famines for some people.)
- venomsnake 12y ago
  Because tradition isn't knowledge. While tradition could be (valuable) source of leads, everything inside must be tested, experimented on and see why it does or doesn't work. That article is perfect example - lots of cultures have fasting. We look at the fasting results and we find something interesting about how out body works. Now we have knowledge that we can build upon.
SoftwareMaven 12y ago
Take a look at what Weston Price learned as he traveled around healthy cultures. I'm certainly not implying "everything old is good", but we have adopted an attitude of "they were all stupid", which isn't true. Let's take a look: Wisdom: Fat is a good energy source. "Science": Fat makes you fat and clogs your arteries. Now: Fat is important for regulating satiety and nervous system health. Wisdom: Simple carbs and sugar should be very limited. "Science": You can eat as much as you want without any problems. Now: High glucose and fructose loads are significant players in NAFLD, diabetes, heart disease and dimentia. Wisdom: Fermented foods like keifer, sauerkraut, and miso are important parts of the diet. "Science": Kill all the bugz! Now: Gut biome health may be a significant factor in many physical and mental health problems. Wisdom: Regular periods of fasting are good for mind and body. "Science": You should eat 6 small meals every day to keep blood sugar even. Now: See TFA. I'm sure I could keep going...
- anon4 12y ago
  But that wisdom is all from different periods. Fat in particular is the old sugar - it makes food taste good. It's also the most calorie-dense macronutrient. Of course you're going to put as much as you can in your food. Want some more old wisdom? Bread: eat as much as possible, because it's cheap and fills you up. Bread and butter - the foundation of a good diet. You can't just take any old practice and follow it blindly, you need to have some idea if it's good for you or simply doesn't kill you. Because there's a whole ton of shit that doesn't kill you. Nutritional science may be bunk, but at least you can usually tell when they're speaking bunk and it sure beats the old system of "My parents ate this and they lived to the ripe old age of 50".
- DanBC 12y ago
  Science has never said you can eat as many simple carbs as you like with no problem. There have been "scumbag food advertisers" and "unqualified unregistered pseudo nutritionists" who have said that you must not eat any fat at all but that sugar is fine. That's not science.
  - SoftwareMaven 12y ago
tiglionabbit 12y ago
The fact that particular traditions exist implies that they might have some net benefit. Otherwise, people who practiced these traditions might have been out-competed by other groups who did not.
- venomsnake 12y ago
  The tribes that practiced cargo cults weren't wiped out.
  - arjn 12y ago
    True but thats most likely because they were/are highly isolated from other groups.
  - tiglionabbit 12y ago
    100 years is probably not enough time for this sort of selection to take place.

Evidence of fasting having value is interesting, but I wouldn't put much stock in the "wisdom of the ancestors".

by thenmar 12y ago

Evidence of fasting having value is interesting, but I wouldn't put much stock in the "wisdom of the ancestors".

GlickWick 12y ago

Why not? Don't you want to attach a bunch of leeches to your stomach and bleed away that flu?

JamesArgo 12y ago
And come to think of it, storing dead bodies in the well was very pro-biotic.
nkozyra 12y ago
Well, we still use leeches today in modern medicine, so there's clearly some efficacy on display.

svasan 12y ago

Why would one want to ignore beneficial knowledge received in the form of tradition? To be able to re-invent the wheel?

WalterSear 12y ago
Because the past had proportionally more hucksters to scientists than today. And because a lot of that 'ancient wisdom' was invented later, by the aforementioned hucksters: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/10/traditional_chinese_medicine_origins_mao_invented_it_but_didn_t_believe.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa...
dragonwriter 12y ago
> Why would one want to ignore beneficial knowledge received in the form of tradition? You want to be skeptical of tradition as a source of factual information because, while there exists beneficial knowledge that may be received in the form of tradition, it is impossible to reliably separate it from harmful false "knowledge" received in the form of tradition, without first turning it into knowledge derived from structured scientific information gathering.
- svasan 12y ago
  Thanks, but no thanks to FDA approved or "scientifically" structured and tested and accredited health recommendations for me. I am willing to put to test the the traditional practices that I am (or become) aware of.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  > it is impossible to reliably separate it from harmful false "knowledge" received in the form of tradition Evolution/Survivability of a group usually takes care of that Yeah, slightly harmful/long term harmful things will go though, but not major things. Someone discovered cheese with mold is edible (probably happened in a low food situation), but there's a high likelihood on people having tried other things with mold and it didn't work out as expected.
  - DenisM 12y ago
    >Evolution/Survivability of a group usually takes care of that Not washing hands survived for a very long time, and lead to huge child mortality. Humanity survived, but lots of people died for no good reason.
    - meric 12y ago
      A thousand years ago, it may have been more dangerous to send three times as many villagers to collect water from the river 20km away so that the village would have enough water for everyone to wash their hands, than to have people not wash their hands before eating. The benefits of a practice/tradition can vary over time. Lots of people may have died from avoidable diseases, but lots of people may also have avoided death by bandits, wild animals, and starvation. (due to more workers allocated to water collection than food production; the extra food produced may have been the difference between life and death during famines for some people.)
venomsnake 12y ago
Because tradition isn't knowledge. While tradition could be (valuable) source of leads, everything inside must be tested, experimented on and see why it does or doesn't work. That article is perfect example - lots of cultures have fasting. We look at the fasting results and we find something interesting about how out body works. Now we have knowledge that we can build upon.

SoftwareMaven 12y ago

Take a look at what Weston Price learned as he traveled around healthy cultures. I'm certainly not implying "everything old is good", but we have adopted an attitude of "they were all stupid", which isn't true. Let's take a look: Wisdom: Fat is a good energy source. "Science": Fat makes you fat and clogs your arteries. Now: Fat is important for regulating satiety and nervous system health. Wisdom: Simple carbs and sugar should be very limited. "Science": You can eat as much as you want without any problems. Now: High glucose and fructose loads are significant players in NAFLD, diabetes, heart disease and dimentia. Wisdom: Fermented foods like keifer, sauerkraut, and miso are important parts of the diet. "Science": Kill all the bugz! Now: Gut biome health may be a significant factor in many physical and mental health problems. Wisdom: Regular periods of fasting are good for mind and body. "Science": You should eat 6 small meals every day to keep blood sugar even. Now: See TFA. I'm sure I could keep going...

anon4 12y ago
But that wisdom is all from different periods. Fat in particular is the old sugar - it makes food taste good. It's also the most calorie-dense macronutrient. Of course you're going to put as much as you can in your food. Want some more old wisdom? Bread: eat as much as possible, because it's cheap and fills you up. Bread and butter - the foundation of a good diet. You can't just take any old practice and follow it blindly, you need to have some idea if it's good for you or simply doesn't kill you. Because there's a whole ton of shit that doesn't kill you. Nutritional science may be bunk, but at least you can usually tell when they're speaking bunk and it sure beats the old system of "My parents ate this and they lived to the ripe old age of 50".
DanBC 12y ago
Science has never said you can eat as many simple carbs as you like with no problem. There have been "scumbag food advertisers" and "unqualified unregistered pseudo nutritionists" who have said that you must not eat any fat at all but that sugar is fine. That's not science.
- SoftwareMaven 12y ago

tiglionabbit 12y ago

The fact that particular traditions exist implies that they might have some net benefit. Otherwise, people who practiced these traditions might have been out-competed by other groups who did not.

venomsnake 12y ago
The tribes that practiced cargo cults weren't wiped out.
- arjn 12y ago
  True but thats most likely because they were/are highly isolated from other groups.
- tiglionabbit 12y ago
  100 years is probably not enough time for this sort of selection to take place.