3 ms·

I assume you read what I wrote and I wasn't clear enough. Node is actually quite DIFFICULT to learn and use. It's very very easy to write code that's broken in

by erjiang 12y ago

I assume you read what I wrote and I wasn't clear enough. Node is actually quite DIFFICULT to learn and use. It's very very easy to write code that's broken in some way if you don't have a deep understanding of Node.js. Fun unrelated anecdote: someone was showing off their concurrent Node.js web scraper and as requests piled up, it was apparent that it could handle no more than 5 concurrent requests. Why? The HTTP library's internal concurrency limit defaulted to 5.

dap 12y ago
How many concurrent requests can the six-line HTTP server on Node's front page serve? (I don't know the answer. I've taken a quick stab a few times on a few platforms, but I keep running into local TCP port exhaustion, leading to multi-second latency bubbles, long before I run into any Node.js or physical limit.)
- randallsquared 12y ago
  Not sure if you changed the context from HTTP clients to HTTP servers intentionally, but it's true that the default of five connections is an outgoing connections restriction, not related to the HTTP server. This client restriction is deeply irritating. A project I was involved with is about creating a general purpose hypermedia API, and building up documents involved following the links in parent documents back through the API, which meant that a single request can end up requiring hundreds of further calls to satisfy, which seemed like no problem at first with node.js' easy concurrency (and an auto-scaling fleet of EC2 servers), but the client connection limit turned out to be the cause of a lot of timeouts and prompted a lot of working around.
  - dap 12y ago
    The client "limit" is just a tunable with a bad default value. You can tune this up and completely eliminate that limit. (The failure mode is pretty bad, but this comes from a lack of observability in abstraction design that pervades most code.) The server example, on the other hand, demonstrates the point that the default way to write a "hello world" web server actually scales very well.
GrinningFool 12y ago
Node is popular because it feels light and easy to use. http.createServer(...a simple function...) Holy crap! I just created an http server and now I can respond to events with just a few lines of code! Once you get deep enough into to it to realize that it creates a tendancy towards complex deeply nested code and that making a good, maintainable application is a non-trivial task... it's far too late. Because of the 'fast' feel of it, you're convinced that these are just things you have to figure out and learn best practices for - it couldn't be that the 'fast' feel was deceptive to begin with.
rdtsc 12y ago
Node.js along with other callback and promise based frameworks are insidious. They are so because they look good in small examples. "Oh look, here is how to serve a file in Node.js". You just have one callback for the request, then another for the error and so on. In larger cases it turns into a mess, but by that time there is already a buy-in. Run a short little demo, looks fast, read about how "cool it is" on the web some place. Ok let's rewrite everything in it. Quite often once people started heading the wrong path, it becomes hard to look back and say "Yeah this is the wrong way, let's turn back". That is just basic psychology. At the same time, I think Node.js is great. It is great as a differentiator when you ask people why they picked it and see what they say. If they come back with the list in the article (basically list "evented","async","webscale" jargon), then that tells me they don't quite understand what is going on underneath. Which is not bad, people have the right to be confused, but it just lets me know on what level to converse with them on.

by erjiang 12y ago

dap 12y ago

How many concurrent requests can the six-line HTTP server on Node's front page serve? (I don't know the answer. I've taken a quick stab a few times on a few platforms, but I keep running into local TCP port exhaustion, leading to multi-second latency bubbles, long before I run into any Node.js or physical limit.)

randallsquared 12y ago
Not sure if you changed the context from HTTP clients to HTTP servers intentionally, but it's true that the default of five connections is an outgoing connections restriction, not related to the HTTP server. This client restriction is deeply irritating. A project I was involved with is about creating a general purpose hypermedia API, and building up documents involved following the links in parent documents back through the API, which meant that a single request can end up requiring hundreds of further calls to satisfy, which seemed like no problem at first with node.js' easy concurrency (and an auto-scaling fleet of EC2 servers), but the client connection limit turned out to be the cause of a lot of timeouts and prompted a lot of working around.
- dap 12y ago
  The client "limit" is just a tunable with a bad default value. You can tune this up and completely eliminate that limit. (The failure mode is pretty bad, but this comes from a lack of observability in abstraction design that pervades most code.) The server example, on the other hand, demonstrates the point that the default way to write a "hello world" web server actually scales very well.

GrinningFool 12y ago

Node is popular because it feels light and easy to use. http.createServer(...a simple function...) Holy crap! I just created an http server and now I can respond to events with just a few lines of code! Once you get deep enough into to it to realize that it creates a tendancy towards complex deeply nested code and that making a good, maintainable application is a non-trivial task... it's far too late. Because of the 'fast' feel of it, you're convinced that these are just things you have to figure out and learn best practices for - it couldn't be that the 'fast' feel was deceptive to begin with.

rdtsc 12y ago

Node.js along with other callback and promise based frameworks are insidious. They are so because they look good in small examples. "Oh look, here is how to serve a file in Node.js". You just have one callback for the request, then another for the error and so on. In larger cases it turns into a mess, but by that time there is already a buy-in. Run a short little demo, looks fast, read about how "cool it is" on the web some place. Ok let's rewrite everything in it. Quite often once people started heading the wrong path, it becomes hard to look back and say "Yeah this is the wrong way, let's turn back". That is just basic psychology. At the same time, I think Node.js is great. It is great as a differentiator when you ask people why they picked it and see what they say. If they come back with the list in the article (basically list "evented","async","webscale" jargon), then that tells me they don't quite understand what is going on underneath. Which is not bad, people have the right to be confused, but it just lets me know on what level to converse with them on.