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The evidence for the Holocaust is so complete and wide-ranging that to question it almost instantly puts you into the "loony" category. Just because it happene

by hvs 17y ago

The evidence for the Holocaust is so complete and wide-ranging that to question it almost instantly puts you into the "loony" category. Just because it happened before you were born is not an argument for believing in it or not. Otherwise, %99.9999... of the knowledge that you have would be useless. The number of eyewitnesses to the Holocaust alone is evidence enough, but the documentary footage of it is also significant.

Tichy 17y ago
Documentary footage like "Schindler's Liste"? ;-) I have not seen any of the footage. Where can I see it? I have seen movies of concentration camps when the American soldiers first set foot in them. But I don't know enough to be sure that it wasn't diseases that killed a lot of people and led to the starved looks, for example. Also, how did anybody survive at all? It seems difficult also to judge pictures from war times from our modern perspective. (corpses were probably a common sight - not so much today). Not that I want to deny the HC, it is just that I don't take things at face value. Luckily the HC issue is not relevant enough to me to get too involved. It is sufficient to me to know that a lot of people died, and I know that humans can be very evil. Nitpicking on the details is also likely just something the revisionists start.
- astine 17y ago
  There are enough photographs of near death, emaciates being rescued from the camps to satisfy my curiosity. I suppose it could be some sort of elaborate ruse being forced on us by older generations, crazier myths have formed. But, I find it more likely that the Shoah happened.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    "There are enough photographs of near death, emaciates being rescued from the camps to satisfy my curiosity." That is just emotions though, not science. There are gruesome pictures from any war - I think few POW camps were very pleasant, for example. At the Kosovo war there were also fake pictures from concentration camps distributed by the mainstream press. Again I don't want to deny the killings, I just feel there are things missing from the story. For example, if all the nazis wanted was to kill, why have concentration camps to begin with. Why were there any survivors at all? I suppose they made the able ones work for the war effort, but then you mention the near death - presumably they were not that able to work anymore.
    - sethg 17y ago
      Excerpts from Goebbels's diary: February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness. March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor. (quoted in http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi)
- Retric 17y ago
  There is more evidence for the holocaust than there was for Kennedy assassination. He is alive and living in Texas. Bob the impersonator in the car had no idea he was about to be shot and nobody can talk about it because they are all accomplices to the murder... [kidding] Anyway, the idea that you can keep a secret that 100,000+ people are in on is just silly. If you really want to know, use sonar to look at the mass graves. Still the allure of conspiracy theories is huge. So it’s easy for people to ignore evidence that does not support their pet theory. PS: My favorite theory is idea that UFO's where created by the US Air force to misdirect the Russians when people in the middle of the country started seeing strange objects in the sky they would see reports from the US of the same thing. The advantage of this theory is it would take a small number of people to create, and those in the know would have little reason to tell the truth thinking it's a good joke.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    "If you really want to know, use sonar to look at the mass graves." There are no mass graves, apparently. Edit: thanks for the link, sethg. It only highlights the problem - after a while of reading discussions it get's confusing... Maybe one thing to take away is to avoid public discussions and try to find more reliable sources. In this case of course I believe your link, I am just surprised how the other sources I read could get away with it.
    - sethg 17y ago
      You have been misinformed. http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/belzec/Archeological_Report/ftp.py?camps/aktion.reinhard/belzec/Archeological_Report//Tregenza_Conclusions.98 http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/belzec/A... http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/ftp.py?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen//jaeger-report/jaeger-transcript http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/ftp... (there is of course more evidence available for those who seek it, but I just want to establish that the number of mass graves is greater than zero)
  - kingkongrevenge 17y ago
    > the idea that you can keep a secret that 100,000+ people are in on is just silly 100,000 would be hard, but 10,000 vetted employees threatened with the power of the state for the rest of their lives is definitely done in militaries all over the world. Look at the never ending revelations about the early Soviet era. Many aspects of the GULAG system are only becoming clear now. I do not find the argument that governments can't keep secrets convincing at all. Even if the seal isn't airtight there is often such a highly effective ability to muddy the waters the truth becomes impossible to see through the disinformation.
oneplusone 17y ago
If you research a bit of the Holocaust you will soon learn there is a lot of weird things going on in the story that doesn't really make much scientific sense. Take a look at this documentary that covers 1/3 of the concentration camps: www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com While I do believe the Holocaust happened and it was a terrible thing, I also realize that people tend to exaggerate their stories. Unfortunately, most people have such an emotional reaction against questioning anything related to the Holocaust they completely give up reason and instead become blind to any scientific argument.
- hvs 17y ago
  "Documentary" is being kind to the dreck the holocaust revisionists spew on sites like that. No thank you, I'm very well aware of their idiotic arguments.

by hvs 17y ago

Tichy 17y ago

Documentary footage like "Schindler's Liste"? ;-) I have not seen any of the footage. Where can I see it? I have seen movies of concentration camps when the American soldiers first set foot in them. But I don't know enough to be sure that it wasn't diseases that killed a lot of people and led to the starved looks, for example. Also, how did anybody survive at all? It seems difficult also to judge pictures from war times from our modern perspective. (corpses were probably a common sight - not so much today). Not that I want to deny the HC, it is just that I don't take things at face value. Luckily the HC issue is not relevant enough to me to get too involved. It is sufficient to me to know that a lot of people died, and I know that humans can be very evil. Nitpicking on the details is also likely just something the revisionists start.

astine 17y ago
There are enough photographs of near death, emaciates being rescued from the camps to satisfy my curiosity. I suppose it could be some sort of elaborate ruse being forced on us by older generations, crazier myths have formed. But, I find it more likely that the Shoah happened.
- Tichy 17y ago
  "There are enough photographs of near death, emaciates being rescued from the camps to satisfy my curiosity." That is just emotions though, not science. There are gruesome pictures from any war - I think few POW camps were very pleasant, for example. At the Kosovo war there were also fake pictures from concentration camps distributed by the mainstream press. Again I don't want to deny the killings, I just feel there are things missing from the story. For example, if all the nazis wanted was to kill, why have concentration camps to begin with. Why were there any survivors at all? I suppose they made the able ones work for the war effort, but then you mention the near death - presumably they were not that able to work anymore.
  - sethg 17y ago
    Excerpts from Goebbels's diary: February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness. March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor. (quoted in http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi)
Retric 17y ago
There is more evidence for the holocaust than there was for Kennedy assassination. He is alive and living in Texas. Bob the impersonator in the car had no idea he was about to be shot and nobody can talk about it because they are all accomplices to the murder... [kidding] Anyway, the idea that you can keep a secret that 100,000+ people are in on is just silly. If you really want to know, use sonar to look at the mass graves. Still the allure of conspiracy theories is huge. So it’s easy for people to ignore evidence that does not support their pet theory. PS: My favorite theory is idea that UFO's where created by the US Air force to misdirect the Russians when people in the middle of the country started seeing strange objects in the sky they would see reports from the US of the same thing. The advantage of this theory is it would take a small number of people to create, and those in the know would have little reason to tell the truth thinking it's a good joke.
- Tichy 17y ago
  "If you really want to know, use sonar to look at the mass graves." There are no mass graves, apparently. Edit: thanks for the link, sethg. It only highlights the problem - after a while of reading discussions it get's confusing... Maybe one thing to take away is to avoid public discussions and try to find more reliable sources. In this case of course I believe your link, I am just surprised how the other sources I read could get away with it.
  - sethg 17y ago
    You have been misinformed. http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/belzec/Archeological_Report/ftp.py?camps/aktion.reinhard/belzec/Archeological_Report//Tregenza_Conclusions.98 http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/belzec/A... http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/ftp.py?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen//jaeger-report/jaeger-transcript http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/ftp... (there is of course more evidence available for those who seek it, but I just want to establish that the number of mass graves is greater than zero)
- kingkongrevenge 17y ago
  > the idea that you can keep a secret that 100,000+ people are in on is just silly 100,000 would be hard, but 10,000 vetted employees threatened with the power of the state for the rest of their lives is definitely done in militaries all over the world. Look at the never ending revelations about the early Soviet era. Many aspects of the GULAG system are only becoming clear now. I do not find the argument that governments can't keep secrets convincing at all. Even if the seal isn't airtight there is often such a highly effective ability to muddy the waters the truth becomes impossible to see through the disinformation.

oneplusone 17y ago

If you research a bit of the Holocaust you will soon learn there is a lot of weird things going on in the story that doesn't really make much scientific sense. Take a look at this documentary that covers 1/3 of the concentration camps: www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com While I do believe the Holocaust happened and it was a terrible thing, I also realize that people tend to exaggerate their stories. Unfortunately, most people have such an emotional reaction against questioning anything related to the Holocaust they completely give up reason and instead become blind to any scientific argument.

hvs 17y ago
"Documentary" is being kind to the dreck the holocaust revisionists spew on sites like that. No thank you, I'm very well aware of their idiotic arguments.