4 ms·

MDMA may have been discovered in a Merck laboratory, but Alexander (Sasha) Shulgin devised an excellent DIY MDMA synthesis that could be attempted outside a lab

by idm 12y ago

MDMA may have been discovered in a Merck laboratory, but Alexander (Sasha) Shulgin devised an excellent DIY MDMA synthesis that could be attempted outside a laboratory environment. Shulgin has been accused of intentionally designing his MDMA synthesis in ways that may have reduced yields, but which utilized precursors that were simpler to obtain by DIY chemists. Shulgin's decisions to facilitate DIY may be responsible for the proliferation of MDMA, which will only increase in importance as MDMA is given more attention in mainstream psychological research. As a psychologist myself, I suspect Shulgin's gentle subversion (a spirit that persists through PiHKAL and TiHKAL) will ultimately be viewed as a heroic act that brought attention to an important therapeutic tool.

cnp 12y ago
Amazing, thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware of this fact. Discovering MDMA a few years ago has had nothing but positive effects for just about everyone I know and knowing that he was using his expertise in order to help facilitate that is just so (so) cool.
- leephillips 12y ago
  I'll admit I don't know much about this, but Sam Harris says that while he had good experiences with MDMA in the past, he warns people against it now because the evidence is clear that it's a neurotoxin.
  - cnp 12y ago
    This is still very (very) much in dispute. You will find serious scientific evidence on both sides arguing for and against, but since three beers floors me the next day and completely destroys my ability to think clearly, where MDMA refreshes and revitalizes pretty much every mental and sensory organ, I'll just go with my own findings on the matter :) This is the article I always like to post whenever the discussion comes up: "Pure MDMA can be 'safe' for adults", says BC's top health official http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pure-ecstasy-can-be-safe-for-adults-health-official-says-1.1229517 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pure-ecstasy-... ...And this video from 60 Minutes ("Ecstasy Rising") pretty much describing the demonization of MDMA as an elaborate government frame-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNpFqJcJcps&feature=kp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNpFqJcJcps&feature=kp
    - leephillips 12y ago
      The article doesn't mention the neurotoxicity issue at all. The fact that you enjoy taking it doesn't mean that it is not a neurotoxin, just as the fact that I enjoy a martini doesn't mean that alcohol is not carcinogenic. Again, not my area of expertise, but I think it's notable that a neuroscientist with a rational attitude toward drugs who recounts his own positive experiences with MDMA says that he wouldn't take it now specifically because of what he claims is conclusive evidence that it kills nerve cells.
      - cnp 12y ago
        It's a benefit vs risk scenereo. But the verdict is still out.
      - Nursie 12y ago
        MDMA is (as the great man showed) just a small part of a whole family of compounds. It's no doubt a very magical part, but it's just one of many. IIRC there are others that have been found to have similar action but without the neurotoxicity. MBDB was one I think. Personally I'd love to try EVE and EDEN too... but that's a pipedream in a world where it's rare you can ever know what you're getting.
        Scoundreller 12y ago
        It might be rare to know what you're getting, but that doesn't preclude you from utilizing various drug testing services that will test what you have and let you know the results.
        girvo 12y ago
        Eve (MDEA) was quite an amazing experience, though (as always) lacking in a certain quality that MDA/MDMA have. The ones that have similar action (though subjectively don't really come that close) are the aminoindane-class analogues. They're interesting in their own right, too.
        Nursie 12y ago
  - pmoriarty 12y ago
    Here is what Shulgin himself said about MDMA in relation to "brain damage": "The "permanent brain damage" is based totally on studies done with experimental animals, with the findings extrapolated to encompass the human subject. In a simple statement, there have been no studies in man that have indicated brain damage. The "holes in the brain" is an even more outrageous deception. These popular holes are areas in brain scans that appear less active in attracting radiolabelled agents that are agonists for certain receptor site areas. The pictures that are shown for comparison are not of the same person with or without MDMA in them, but of different people, one of whom has used a lot of ecstasy and the other one without any such history. The quintessence of this line of mythology is an article that appeared recently in the Willamette Week. It not only assured the reader that there were holes generated by serotonin loss, but that they became flooded with dopamine (the default neurotransmitter) and, being attacked by hydrogen peroxide, produced rust. Sorry, drug warriors. No damage, no holes, no rust."[1] Granted, that was from an interview in 2001. For more recent research see erowid[2], and simonster's post later in this thread.[3] I would personally be far less concerned about the neurological/mental effect of ecstasy itself than the purity and identify of whatever passes for ecstasy. This is a very unfortunate effect of the drug war: it makes everyone less safe. If drugs were legalized, they could be regulated and their purity and dosage could be reliably labeled, just as currently legal drugs are in your neighborhood pharmacy, and people dying because of counterfeit drugs would mostly be a thing of the past. [1] - http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/brainholes.htm http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/brainhole... [2] - https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity.sht... [3] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7842632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7842632

by idm 12y ago

cnp 12y ago

Amazing, thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware of this fact. Discovering MDMA a few years ago has had nothing but positive effects for just about everyone I know and knowing that he was using his expertise in order to help facilitate that is just so (so) cool.

leephillips 12y ago
I'll admit I don't know much about this, but Sam Harris says that while he had good experiences with MDMA in the past, he warns people against it now because the evidence is clear that it's a neurotoxin.
- cnp 12y ago
  This is still very (very) much in dispute. You will find serious scientific evidence on both sides arguing for and against, but since three beers floors me the next day and completely destroys my ability to think clearly, where MDMA refreshes and revitalizes pretty much every mental and sensory organ, I'll just go with my own findings on the matter :) This is the article I always like to post whenever the discussion comes up: "Pure MDMA can be 'safe' for adults", says BC's top health official http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pure-ecstasy-can-be-safe-for-adults-health-official-says-1.1229517 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pure-ecstasy-... ...And this video from 60 Minutes ("Ecstasy Rising") pretty much describing the demonization of MDMA as an elaborate government frame-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNpFqJcJcps&feature=kp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNpFqJcJcps&feature=kp
  - leephillips 12y ago
    The article doesn't mention the neurotoxicity issue at all. The fact that you enjoy taking it doesn't mean that it is not a neurotoxin, just as the fact that I enjoy a martini doesn't mean that alcohol is not carcinogenic. Again, not my area of expertise, but I think it's notable that a neuroscientist with a rational attitude toward drugs who recounts his own positive experiences with MDMA says that he wouldn't take it now specifically because of what he claims is conclusive evidence that it kills nerve cells.
    - cnp 12y ago
      It's a benefit vs risk scenereo. But the verdict is still out.
    - Nursie 12y ago
      MDMA is (as the great man showed) just a small part of a whole family of compounds. It's no doubt a very magical part, but it's just one of many. IIRC there are others that have been found to have similar action but without the neurotoxicity. MBDB was one I think. Personally I'd love to try EVE and EDEN too... but that's a pipedream in a world where it's rare you can ever know what you're getting.
      - Scoundreller 12y ago
        It might be rare to know what you're getting, but that doesn't preclude you from utilizing various drug testing services that will test what you have and let you know the results.
      - girvo 12y ago
        Eve (MDEA) was quite an amazing experience, though (as always) lacking in a certain quality that MDA/MDMA have. The ones that have similar action (though subjectively don't really come that close) are the aminoindane-class analogues. They're interesting in their own right, too.
        Nursie 12y ago
- pmoriarty 12y ago
  Here is what Shulgin himself said about MDMA in relation to "brain damage": "The "permanent brain damage" is based totally on studies done with experimental animals, with the findings extrapolated to encompass the human subject. In a simple statement, there have been no studies in man that have indicated brain damage. The "holes in the brain" is an even more outrageous deception. These popular holes are areas in brain scans that appear less active in attracting radiolabelled agents that are agonists for certain receptor site areas. The pictures that are shown for comparison are not of the same person with or without MDMA in them, but of different people, one of whom has used a lot of ecstasy and the other one without any such history. The quintessence of this line of mythology is an article that appeared recently in the Willamette Week. It not only assured the reader that there were holes generated by serotonin loss, but that they became flooded with dopamine (the default neurotransmitter) and, being attacked by hydrogen peroxide, produced rust. Sorry, drug warriors. No damage, no holes, no rust."[1] Granted, that was from an interview in 2001. For more recent research see erowid[2], and simonster's post later in this thread.[3] I would personally be far less concerned about the neurological/mental effect of ecstasy itself than the purity and identify of whatever passes for ecstasy. This is a very unfortunate effect of the drug war: it makes everyone less safe. If drugs were legalized, they could be regulated and their purity and dosage could be reliably labeled, just as currently legal drugs are in your neighborhood pharmacy, and people dying because of counterfeit drugs would mostly be a thing of the past. [1] - http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/brainholes.htm http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/brainhole... [2] - https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity.sht... [3] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7842632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7842632