7 ms·

Maybe it's my Western bias speaking, but a lot of what is described as "just a different way of viewing time" sounds like "just a greater tolerance for jerks" t

by jawns 12y ago

Maybe it's my Western bias speaking, but a lot of what is described as "just a different way of viewing time" sounds like "just a greater tolerance for jerks" to me. When you schedule a meeting and one person takes pains to arrive on time and another person does not care whether they're late and shows up an hour later, that leaves the conscientious person sitting there twiddling their thumbs for an hour, whether they're in the U.S. or Italy or China. I suppose it's more understandable in areas where transportation is unreliable, in which case it's hard for anybody to be consistently on time, but I have a hard time seeing how a culture in which no one is concerned with punctuality can be said to be merely laid-back, as opposed to plain lazy. It's possible to be both laid-back and punctual, after all.

Surio 12y ago
>> "Maybe it's my Western bias speaking..." Unfortunately, it is...
- jawns 12y ago
  Care to back that up?
  - TuringTest 12y ago
    See my extended reply above, it gives a hint of what you're missing.
- elviejo 12y ago
  Yes it is... if in the culture it is accepted that time is a continum.. following your example if both person agree at 12...and one of them arrivew at 1..the one that arrives later may look like "jerk" as you call it. But what happens if one person arrived at 12:30 and the other at 12:40? Eventhough the meeting was at 12?? Are both jerks?? Minute accurate precision is a Western phenomena derived from the industrial revolution... where humans had to adapt to the machine... in other cultures where the industrial revolution started later.... time is perceived more like a continuum... or a band.. so 12.. means anything beteween 12 - 12:30 Evening means around 6 or 7... and next week means never But what happens if the same couple meets again and now the one that arrives later is the Other person?
dec0dedab0de 12y ago
It's possible to be both laid-back and punctual I'm sure it is, but I have ever met anyone who I would describe using both of those words.
userbinator 12y ago
It's more like everyone applies some sort of implicit linear transformation to the scheduled times, so that everyone is late by approximately the same amount.
- TuringTest 12y ago
  That, and we don't plan for anything immediately after the meeting. ;-)
TuringTest 12y ago
The failure in that view is that you didn't plan for imprecision and uncertainty when you built the schedule. This is inefficient because it doesn't allow the meeting to be flexible, ending before its deadline or alternatively, extending way beyond the scheduled time. The attitude of "leaves the room in the middle, before the business is finished" may certainly be a problem. Being a Spaniard, I see the inherent value in Figure 4.5 "Spanish schedules: In theory, in reality". A day schedule would be seen as poor and aseptic without the "meets in bar" at the end. For us, those differences between what's scheduled and the actual sequence of events is where life happens. It's no wonder that the novel "Momo"'s setting was placed in Italy. [1] Also, in the multi-active culture, the other person shouldn't be there waiting, idle, twiddling their thumbs; they're surely have plenty of other things that can take care of in the meantime. (In the modern world they could be conducting other businesses by phone or with their laptops, but those are still Western-thinking tools; other options could be to socialize with the people at the building, reading a book or merely enjoying the scenery or getting lost in their thoughts. When was the last time you planned for that?) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_%28novel%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_%28novel%29 edit: grammar
- jawns 12y ago
  Whether the punctual person has other things to do to pass the time until you arrive is immaterial. Presumably, you both agreed to meet at 12 and not 1 because 12 was a mutually agreeable time; otherwise, you would have agreed to meet at 1 instead. So, for the latecomer to arrive at 1 when they were capable of arriving at 12 but lost track of time or stopped to smell the roses is disrespectful of the other person. It says to the other person, "I'm not going to inconvenience myself by rushing or paying attention to the time so I'm not late ... instead, I'm going to inconvenience you."
  - seszett 12y ago
    > lost track of time or stopped to smell the roses You are really being very disdainful of the (hypothetical) late person. I find that is a typical American attitude. Even in this completely theoretical discussion, you are assuming the person is late for a reason you find frivolous instead of being a receptive, empathetic human who knows that things don't always happen as planned.
seszett 12y ago
> Maybe it's my Western bias speaking It is. Northwestern even. > a greater tolerance for jerks Actually, one might very well argue that you are the jerk, in your own example. Come on, what's one hour? Just do something else while waiting for the person to arrive.
- shabadoop 12y ago
  >Actually, one might very well argue that you are the jerk, in your own example. Come on, what's one hour? Just do something else while waiting for the person to arrive. What are they doing for one hour that's so important that other people should wait on them - if I have a meeting at 10 and they aren't there, can I just leave to handle other work and show up at 12?
  - sirdogealot 12y ago
    You could, but if you were doing that to spite the other then it wouldn't be a very fruitful business relationship.
  - seszett 12y ago
    This attitude is exactly what I have in mind when I'm saying the jerk might not be the initial late person. If they're late they probably have a reason for it (you might not think they have a good reason though, but who are you to judge that?) they're not doing it for the purpose of annoying you, even though you two might have a meeting you still aren't the centre of the world. So don't leave just to retaliate (because that is why you are talking about leaving and showing up even later) because that will accomplish nothing at all. Once they arrive you can even tell them they're late, and they will apologize. Anger on the other hand will just leave you both miserable.
    - jawns 12y ago
      I think we all can tell the difference between a good excuse and a lame one. But I think we also all know people who perpetually show up late with excuses, and we also all know people who have their jawns together and ordinarily show up on time. Are you saying that the perpetually late people are just cursed? Because I'm saying they're not cursed; they're at best undisciplined and at worst selfish and inconsiderate.
rayiner 12y ago
Suggesting that certain cultural traits might be unproductive or even bad is frowned upon, in my opinion unjustly. My family is Bangladeshi. One of the characteristics of the culture is a total inability to be punctual. Its always drove my dad up the wall, even though he grew up there. So when I read articles like this, I just think of people like my dad--the linear time minorities in these places. Pacing around waiting for guests who show up at 10 for dinner scheduled for 8.
- chimeracoder 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, where in Bengal is your family from? I have a hypothesis about the nature of this particular trait.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - SerpentJoe 12y ago
    > Bangladeshi
- mtrimpe 12y ago
  > Suggesting that certain cultural traits might be unproductive or even bad is frowned upon, in my opinion unjustly. I wouldn't frown upon it if the person made it understands it's essentially a hypothetical statement about what one believes the end-result will be of changing a small yet pervasive dynamic of a culture. It's essentially the same thing as, for example, arguing that the American lack of a social safety net is counterproductive on the whole. I certainly believe so, but it could just as well take away the drive Americans are famous for and result in a complete collapse of the American empire.
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  Maybe this is cultural imperialism talking, but I personally think it's REALLY NICE that if you and another person talk about a plan (e.g. meet at 8pm), and then agree to it, then you both actually agree to the thing you talked about, and not to something else (e.g. show up at 9-10pm or whenever). Like, actually using words to describe reality. Danged useful. Triply so in the business world. A little more reliable than using words to describe a shared dreamlike version of reality.
foolrush 12y ago
See also “Does Language Shape Thought” by Boroditsky, which discusses how perceptions of time are adjusted based on roots in language. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010028501907480 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010028501... It appears to be emergent turtles all the way down...
sirdogealot 12y ago
Why sit and twiddle your thumbs for an hour (increasingly becoming upset with your business partner) when you can whip out your laptop and get some work done instead? Or your cell phone to talk with the family/friends?
- aianus 12y ago
  Maybe I'm OCD but I really hate starting work with the expectation of soon being interrupted.
  - w0rd-driven 12y ago
    I'm the same way. It's not really meaningful work but just whatever you can do to pass the time. My mind doesn't context switch that greatly so when I'm in "Let's slow down and talk this out" mode, I'm absolutely not in "Leave me alone I have to solve world hunger" mode. They're typically mutually exclusive.
  - TuringTest 12y ago
    Why anything that comes to your mind to do in that situation has to be "work"?
    - copperx 12y ago
      Because in America, publicly enjoying unplanned leisure is taboo.
      - hollerith 12y ago
        I've been living in America (East Coast, Bay Area) for the last 54 years, and I don't recognize the America described in about half of the HN comments I've seen recently (including this comment).
        sirdogealot 12y ago
        That's not something you could perceive by looking at the general public. That's something you can learn by being involved in the north american corporate workforce. When I took my very first job at mcdonalds I was told "If you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean." That work ethic is very prominent in american culture. If you're not working, you're not achieving your full potential. And that needs to stop.
lazyant 12y ago
it's not laziness, it's lack of respect (for other people/other people's time)

by jawns 12y ago

Surio 12y ago

>> "Maybe it's my Western bias speaking..." Unfortunately, it is...

jawns 12y ago
Care to back that up?
- TuringTest 12y ago
  See my extended reply above, it gives a hint of what you're missing.
elviejo 12y ago
Yes it is... if in the culture it is accepted that time is a continum.. following your example if both person agree at 12...and one of them arrivew at 1..the one that arrives later may look like "jerk" as you call it. But what happens if one person arrived at 12:30 and the other at 12:40? Eventhough the meeting was at 12?? Are both jerks?? Minute accurate precision is a Western phenomena derived from the industrial revolution... where humans had to adapt to the machine... in other cultures where the industrial revolution started later.... time is perceived more like a continuum... or a band.. so 12.. means anything beteween 12 - 12:30 Evening means around 6 or 7... and next week means never But what happens if the same couple meets again and now the one that arrives later is the Other person?

dec0dedab0de 12y ago

It's possible to be both laid-back and punctual I'm sure it is, but I have ever met anyone who I would describe using both of those words.

userbinator 12y ago

It's more like everyone applies some sort of implicit linear transformation to the scheduled times, so that everyone is late by approximately the same amount.

TuringTest 12y ago
That, and we don't plan for anything immediately after the meeting. ;-)

TuringTest 12y ago

The failure in that view is that you didn't plan for imprecision and uncertainty when you built the schedule. This is inefficient because it doesn't allow the meeting to be flexible, ending before its deadline or alternatively, extending way beyond the scheduled time. The attitude of "leaves the room in the middle, before the business is finished" may certainly be a problem. Being a Spaniard, I see the inherent value in Figure 4.5 "Spanish schedules: In theory, in reality". A day schedule would be seen as poor and aseptic without the "meets in bar" at the end. For us, those differences between what's scheduled and the actual sequence of events is where life happens. It's no wonder that the novel "Momo"'s setting was placed in Italy. [1] Also, in the multi-active culture, the other person shouldn't be there waiting, idle, twiddling their thumbs; they're surely have plenty of other things that can take care of in the meantime. (In the modern world they could be conducting other businesses by phone or with their laptops, but those are still Western-thinking tools; other options could be to socialize with the people at the building, reading a book or merely enjoying the scenery or getting lost in their thoughts. When was the last time you planned for that?) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_%28novel%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_%28novel%29 edit: grammar

jawns 12y ago
Whether the punctual person has other things to do to pass the time until you arrive is immaterial. Presumably, you both agreed to meet at 12 and not 1 because 12 was a mutually agreeable time; otherwise, you would have agreed to meet at 1 instead. So, for the latecomer to arrive at 1 when they were capable of arriving at 12 but lost track of time or stopped to smell the roses is disrespectful of the other person. It says to the other person, "I'm not going to inconvenience myself by rushing or paying attention to the time so I'm not late ... instead, I'm going to inconvenience you."
- seszett 12y ago
  > lost track of time or stopped to smell the roses You are really being very disdainful of the (hypothetical) late person. I find that is a typical American attitude. Even in this completely theoretical discussion, you are assuming the person is late for a reason you find frivolous instead of being a receptive, empathetic human who knows that things don't always happen as planned.

seszett 12y ago

> Maybe it's my Western bias speaking It is. Northwestern even. > a greater tolerance for jerks Actually, one might very well argue that you are the jerk, in your own example. Come on, what's one hour? Just do something else while waiting for the person to arrive.

shabadoop 12y ago
>Actually, one might very well argue that you are the jerk, in your own example. Come on, what's one hour? Just do something else while waiting for the person to arrive. What are they doing for one hour that's so important that other people should wait on them - if I have a meeting at 10 and they aren't there, can I just leave to handle other work and show up at 12?
- sirdogealot 12y ago
  You could, but if you were doing that to spite the other then it wouldn't be a very fruitful business relationship.
- seszett 12y ago
  This attitude is exactly what I have in mind when I'm saying the jerk might not be the initial late person. If they're late they probably have a reason for it (you might not think they have a good reason though, but who are you to judge that?) they're not doing it for the purpose of annoying you, even though you two might have a meeting you still aren't the centre of the world. So don't leave just to retaliate (because that is why you are talking about leaving and showing up even later) because that will accomplish nothing at all. Once they arrive you can even tell them they're late, and they will apologize. Anger on the other hand will just leave you both miserable.
  - jawns 12y ago
    I think we all can tell the difference between a good excuse and a lame one. But I think we also all know people who perpetually show up late with excuses, and we also all know people who have their jawns together and ordinarily show up on time. Are you saying that the perpetually late people are just cursed? Because I'm saying they're not cursed; they're at best undisciplined and at worst selfish and inconsiderate.

rayiner 12y ago

Suggesting that certain cultural traits might be unproductive or even bad is frowned upon, in my opinion unjustly. My family is Bangladeshi. One of the characteristics of the culture is a total inability to be punctual. Its always drove my dad up the wall, even though he grew up there. So when I read articles like this, I just think of people like my dad--the linear time minorities in these places. Pacing around waiting for guests who show up at 10 for dinner scheduled for 8.

chimeracoder 12y ago
Out of curiosity, where in Bengal is your family from? I have a hypothesis about the nature of this particular trait.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- SerpentJoe 12y ago
  > Bangladeshi
mtrimpe 12y ago
> Suggesting that certain cultural traits might be unproductive or even bad is frowned upon, in my opinion unjustly. I wouldn't frown upon it if the person made it understands it's essentially a hypothetical statement about what one believes the end-result will be of changing a small yet pervasive dynamic of a culture. It's essentially the same thing as, for example, arguing that the American lack of a social safety net is counterproductive on the whole. I certainly believe so, but it could just as well take away the drive Americans are famous for and result in a complete collapse of the American empire.
fennecfoxen 12y ago
Maybe this is cultural imperialism talking, but I personally think it's REALLY NICE that if you and another person talk about a plan (e.g. meet at 8pm), and then agree to it, then you both actually agree to the thing you talked about, and not to something else (e.g. show up at 9-10pm or whenever). Like, actually using words to describe reality. Danged useful. Triply so in the business world. A little more reliable than using words to describe a shared dreamlike version of reality.

foolrush 12y ago

See also “Does Language Shape Thought” by Boroditsky, which discusses how perceptions of time are adjusted based on roots in language. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010028501907480 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010028501... It appears to be emergent turtles all the way down...

sirdogealot 12y ago

Why sit and twiddle your thumbs for an hour (increasingly becoming upset with your business partner) when you can whip out your laptop and get some work done instead? Or your cell phone to talk with the family/friends?

aianus 12y ago
Maybe I'm OCD but I really hate starting work with the expectation of soon being interrupted.
- w0rd-driven 12y ago
  I'm the same way. It's not really meaningful work but just whatever you can do to pass the time. My mind doesn't context switch that greatly so when I'm in "Let's slow down and talk this out" mode, I'm absolutely not in "Leave me alone I have to solve world hunger" mode. They're typically mutually exclusive.
- TuringTest 12y ago
  Why anything that comes to your mind to do in that situation has to be "work"?
  - copperx 12y ago
    Because in America, publicly enjoying unplanned leisure is taboo.
    - hollerith 12y ago
      I've been living in America (East Coast, Bay Area) for the last 54 years, and I don't recognize the America described in about half of the HN comments I've seen recently (including this comment).
      - sirdogealot 12y ago
        That's not something you could perceive by looking at the general public. That's something you can learn by being involved in the north american corporate workforce. When I took my very first job at mcdonalds I was told "If you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean." That work ethic is very prominent in american culture. If you're not working, you're not achieving your full potential. And that needs to stop.

lazyant 12y ago

it's not laziness, it's lack of respect (for other people/other people's time)