10 ms·

Google Invests in Satellites to Spread Internet Access

88 points by rememberlenny 12y ago

gregpilling 12y ago
I have to wonder if they will be able to provide uncensored service to parts of the planet that are not able to get it now. China has their firewall, and other governments have tried restricting the internet as well. Satellites over head can get around the restrictions. This would bring the internet not only to rural areas, but also oppressed areas.
- hkmurakami 12y ago
  Wouldn't whatever spectrum you use to communicate with satellites be governed by the country's government much like how wireless spectra are owned by countries? In which case, I don't think you'd be able to subterfuge like that.
  - Scoundreller 12y ago
    Iridium and other satellite providers somehow managed to get around this. I think the only places they can't provide service is embargoed countries (and that's more of a "source" country rather than a "destination" country issue). Further research suggests that the ITU-R is responsible for this, likely under some type of treaty.
    - Tarang 12y ago
      The equipment used to communicate with the satellites is usually heavily regulated. For example in India you can't bring in items that communicate via a Satellite without a permit. In Kenya before they changed the law, VSAT terminals were heavily regulated. They had equipment that could detect if you had an unauthorized installation and you could get under heavy fines. Bottom line you can't regulate whether you can or can't get the signal, but you can regulate the domestic equipment required to communicate.
- jlansey 12y ago
  Lets hope this doesn't provoke China to destroy another satellite in orbit. The last time they did that 150,000 debris particles were smashed into orbit.
  - listic 12y ago
    Please provide the link. I haven't heard of the story and it sounds really interesting.
    - the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_missile_test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_mis...
- lsaferite 12y ago
  My radio theory is a bit limited, but couldn't those countries just point high powered transmitters at the satellites as the pass and drown out the customer transmitters?
noobermin 12y ago
I'm not sure if this is related, but my father told me about something similar. My father is from and lives now in Palau [1], and the typical internet connection there has a download speed of something like 20 kbps. My dad said something about a company deploying satellites seeking to service unconnected or poorly connected regions, and Palau wanted in. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau
- Scoundreller 12y ago
  Yikes, An email only dialup account in Palau is $15/month. Unlimited dialup is $99.95. 64kbps DSL is $199.95 per month, going up to $759.95 for 320kbps... I just wish they would give high-speeds at the last mile and ship in multi-TB drives for local access, while rate-limiting international (satellite uplink) access based on how much one pays. edit: Palau internet access rate card: http://www.palaunet.com/view_pdf_file.aspx?field1=Palaunet%20service%20rates%20for%20website.pdf http://www.palaunet.com/view_pdf_file.aspx?field1=Palaunet%2...
  - noobermin 12y ago
    You witness what happens when there is only one ISP with no competition (PNCC provides palaunet). A little example at a different scale of what could happen if comcast and time warner were to merge :) >I just wish they would give high-speeds at the last mile and ship in multi-TB drives for local access, while rate-limiting international (satellite uplink) access based on how much one pays. This idea has been around so long but no one has tried to actually tried to do something like this. Moreover, there isn't a lot of "local access" that I know since there arent't many websites on the island to begin with. Something like a local email service would make sense; palaunet's email service is so bad that people rather use services here in the US like gmail. The funny thing is that PNCC and the Palau government had a chance to tap into AAG[1] when it was laid in the 2000s but Palau opted out of it because they thought it wasn't worth the investment. What a mistake... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAG_%28cable_system%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAG_%28cable_system%29
- MichaelApproved 12y ago
cloudwizard 12y ago
Their driverless car needs Internet to work. This will let you drive anywhere.
- disputin 12y ago
  And connect their robots to Viki.
jader201 12y ago
Admittedly, I scanned the article, but this article seems mostly business speak. I was more curious behind the technical details, specifically potential speeds and overcoming limitations with satellite internet. In other words, can this someday compete with (or even eliminate the need for) current broadband infrastructure?
- hueving 12y ago
  >In other words, can this someday compete with (or even eliminate the need for) current broadband infrastructure? Most likely not. The amount of spectrum required to replace current broadband users would be significant. The amount of coordination overhead for even managing just 50,000,000 satellite client transmissions would probably make the system unusable. I think the target here is less of a last mile replacement and more of a town-wide Internet uplink replacement for places in the middle of nowhere. i.e. the town would get one satellite uplink and then run last-mile connections to their own users.
  - sebastianavina 12y ago
    but they could offer cellphone service across the globe without having to bribe the FCC.
- XorNot 12y ago
  No. Speed of light ensures this will never happen.
  - avz 12y ago
    This won't replace broadband, but for a different reason. The article suggests the satellites would operate from LEO orbit which generally means a few hundreds to 2,000km above the planet. This is less than 10ms even accounting for ionospheric effects. Bandwidth would be a huge problem, though.
    - XorNot 12y ago
      So would LOS. LEO sucks because you definitely aren't going to be using a dish, doubly so if you want continuous connections. At least not on any large scale.
higherpurpose 12y ago
I hope they will use laser technology, which can probably go up to 1 Gbps if they're using cutting edge technology. Although that can probably work only for residences, so if they want it for self-driving cars they'll also need radio-based Internet.
- wmf 12y ago
  Doesn't punching through 60 miles of atmosphere require dangerously high power?
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Either that, or very good antennae.
    - Geee 12y ago
      Insects have antennae. Radio devices have antennas.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        Thank you! Even after 37 years of English there is still room for improvement.
    - wmf 12y ago
      Do lasers use antenna(s|e)?
known 12y ago
I think Google should invest in creating more https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland in the world
ehosca 12y ago
iridium lives!
- lsaferite 12y ago
  More like: Teledesic lives.
washedup 12y ago
I wonder where and how they are putting together a team to design and build the hardware and coordinate with launch companies. This will be a huge contract for whichever company wins the launch bid.
rdl 12y ago
I started/ran a commercial satellite provider (in war zones) for a while last decade. The big transition just happening then (but not in my region, due to a rocket blowing up during launch) was Ku -> Ka band. Ku has big enough beams (thus, less freq re-use) and low enough bandwidth (due to cost of space segment) that it really wasn't economic for "regular" Internet for people -- hundreds or thousands of dollars for a high-latency connection with other performance characteristics of the worst DSL. Ka is an order of magnitude or more better (although more subject to rain fade); smaller and cheaper equipment, too. I was kind of sad Google went with "project loon", which seems kind of..loony to me..rather than UAVs, tethered aerostats, or LEO constellations. It looks like they're not just doing loon. I want to figure out how a Gerald Bull space cannon or RAMAC (10-50k G force launch of 1m diameter satellites, for $100/pound) could be used to build an LEO constellation.

88 points by rememberlenny 12y ago

I have to wonder if they will be able to provide uncensored service to parts of the planet that are not able to get it now. China has their firewall, and other governments have tried restricting the internet as well. Satellites over head can get around the restrictions. This would bring the internet not only to rural areas, but also oppressed areas.

hkmurakami 12y ago
Wouldn't whatever spectrum you use to communicate with satellites be governed by the country's government much like how wireless spectra are owned by countries? In which case, I don't think you'd be able to subterfuge like that.
- Scoundreller 12y ago
  Iridium and other satellite providers somehow managed to get around this. I think the only places they can't provide service is embargoed countries (and that's more of a "source" country rather than a "destination" country issue). Further research suggests that the ITU-R is responsible for this, likely under some type of treaty.
  - Tarang 12y ago
    The equipment used to communicate with the satellites is usually heavily regulated. For example in India you can't bring in items that communicate via a Satellite without a permit. In Kenya before they changed the law, VSAT terminals were heavily regulated. They had equipment that could detect if you had an unauthorized installation and you could get under heavy fines. Bottom line you can't regulate whether you can or can't get the signal, but you can regulate the domestic equipment required to communicate.
jlansey 12y ago
Lets hope this doesn't provoke China to destroy another satellite in orbit. The last time they did that 150,000 debris particles were smashed into orbit.
- listic 12y ago
  Please provide the link. I haven't heard of the story and it sounds really interesting.
  - the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_missile_test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_mis...
lsaferite 12y ago
My radio theory is a bit limited, but couldn't those countries just point high powered transmitters at the satellites as the pass and drown out the customer transmitters?

noobermin 12y ago

I'm not sure if this is related, but my father told me about something similar. My father is from and lives now in Palau [1], and the typical internet connection there has a download speed of something like 20 kbps. My dad said something about a company deploying satellites seeking to service unconnected or poorly connected regions, and Palau wanted in. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau

Scoundreller 12y ago
Yikes, An email only dialup account in Palau is $15/month. Unlimited dialup is $99.95. 64kbps DSL is $199.95 per month, going up to $759.95 for 320kbps... I just wish they would give high-speeds at the last mile and ship in multi-TB drives for local access, while rate-limiting international (satellite uplink) access based on how much one pays. edit: Palau internet access rate card: http://www.palaunet.com/view_pdf_file.aspx?field1=Palaunet%20service%20rates%20for%20website.pdf http://www.palaunet.com/view_pdf_file.aspx?field1=Palaunet%2...
- noobermin 12y ago
  You witness what happens when there is only one ISP with no competition (PNCC provides palaunet). A little example at a different scale of what could happen if comcast and time warner were to merge :) >I just wish they would give high-speeds at the last mile and ship in multi-TB drives for local access, while rate-limiting international (satellite uplink) access based on how much one pays. This idea has been around so long but no one has tried to actually tried to do something like this. Moreover, there isn't a lot of "local access" that I know since there arent't many websites on the island to begin with. Something like a local email service would make sense; palaunet's email service is so bad that people rather use services here in the US like gmail. The funny thing is that PNCC and the Palau government had a chance to tap into AAG[1] when it was laid in the 2000s but Palau opted out of it because they thought it wasn't worth the investment. What a mistake... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAG_%28cable_system%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAG_%28cable_system%29
MichaelApproved 12y ago

cloudwizard 12y ago

Their driverless car needs Internet to work. This will let you drive anywhere.

disputin 12y ago
And connect their robots to Viki.

jader201 12y ago

Admittedly, I scanned the article, but this article seems mostly business speak. I was more curious behind the technical details, specifically potential speeds and overcoming limitations with satellite internet. In other words, can this someday compete with (or even eliminate the need for) current broadband infrastructure?

hueving 12y ago
>In other words, can this someday compete with (or even eliminate the need for) current broadband infrastructure? Most likely not. The amount of spectrum required to replace current broadband users would be significant. The amount of coordination overhead for even managing just 50,000,000 satellite client transmissions would probably make the system unusable. I think the target here is less of a last mile replacement and more of a town-wide Internet uplink replacement for places in the middle of nowhere. i.e. the town would get one satellite uplink and then run last-mile connections to their own users.
- sebastianavina 12y ago
  but they could offer cellphone service across the globe without having to bribe the FCC.
XorNot 12y ago
No. Speed of light ensures this will never happen.
- avz 12y ago
  This won't replace broadband, but for a different reason. The article suggests the satellites would operate from LEO orbit which generally means a few hundreds to 2,000km above the planet. This is less than 10ms even accounting for ionospheric effects. Bandwidth would be a huge problem, though.
  - XorNot 12y ago
    So would LOS. LEO sucks because you definitely aren't going to be using a dish, doubly so if you want continuous connections. At least not on any large scale.

higherpurpose 12y ago

I hope they will use laser technology, which can probably go up to 1 Gbps if they're using cutting edge technology. Although that can probably work only for residences, so if they want it for self-driving cars they'll also need radio-based Internet.

wmf 12y ago
Doesn't punching through 60 miles of atmosphere require dangerously high power?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Either that, or very good antennae.
  - Geee 12y ago
    Insects have antennae. Radio devices have antennas.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      Thank you! Even after 37 years of English there is still room for improvement.
  - wmf 12y ago
    Do lasers use antenna(s|e)?

known 12y ago

I think Google should invest in creating more https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland in the world

ehosca 12y ago

iridium lives!

lsaferite 12y ago
More like: Teledesic lives.

washedup 12y ago

I wonder where and how they are putting together a team to design and build the hardware and coordinate with launch companies. This will be a huge contract for whichever company wins the launch bid.

rdl 12y ago

I started/ran a commercial satellite provider (in war zones) for a while last decade. The big transition just happening then (but not in my region, due to a rocket blowing up during launch) was Ku -> Ka band. Ku has big enough beams (thus, less freq re-use) and low enough bandwidth (due to cost of space segment) that it really wasn't economic for "regular" Internet for people -- hundreds or thousands of dollars for a high-latency connection with other performance characteristics of the worst DSL. Ka is an order of magnitude or more better (although more subject to rain fade); smaller and cheaper equipment, too. I was kind of sad Google went with "project loon", which seems kind of..loony to me..rather than UAVs, tethered aerostats, or LEO constellations. It looks like they're not just doing loon. I want to figure out how a Gerald Bull space cannon or RAMAC (10-50k G force launch of 1m diameter satellites, for $100/pound) could be used to build an LEO constellation.