4 ms·

> short term grade boost Except to them it isn't. Their entire life they have been playing the grade game and have learned how to optimize it. Like any group

by icefox 12y ago

> short term grade boost Except to them it isn't. Their entire life they have been playing the grade game and have learned how to optimize it. Like any group of people given a metric they will try to game it. Not to mention it isn't like everyone is telling them that to get a good job they need good grades in college too. Not one is telling them that the game is about to end.

timthorn 12y ago
The first point at which grades become important is the GCSE at 16 - perhaps they might start playing the game at 14/15 when choosing their options, but I don't this being the case all their life.
- keithpeter 12y ago
  SATs start at 11 in Maths, English and a sampling Science test. Teacher assessment on entry to primary school and informal assessment against NC at 7.
  - timthorn 12y ago
    All of which are effectively meaningless for the pupils, only possible consequence might be the set they're given when they first enter secondary school - which should be readjusted very quickly if incorrectly assigned.
    - keithpeter 12y ago
      Er - not meaningless to their parents at all. Big stress area (I work in adult education). Those feelings will obviously be picked up by child.
- MarcScott 12y ago
  I have students who are excellent at both Computer Science and Systems & Control, who are not opting for the subjects at GCSE. Many have stated that they have chosen a softer subject to study that will give them some respite from study. With most students being forced to study 3 Sciences, Maths, English Language, English Literature, a Foreign Language and a Humanities subject, there is little wonder that they want at least one subject, from their optional choices, that they deem easy, if not particularly worth while.
keithpeter 12y ago
http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/what-maths-a-level-doesnt-necessarily-give-you/ http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/what-maths-a-level-do... Above a Field's medal winning mathematician having a conversation with a 17 year old A level student. Actually, my perception is that the grade gaming started fairly recently in the UK, around 10 to 15 years ago. The rhetoric of 'raising standards' came to mean 'more passing and higher grades'. As regards the parent post's last sentence ('Not one is telling them that the game is about to end.') some of my brighter Further Education students (vocational training) seem to have guessed. They are not going to University directly or at all but via placements in company training programmes or services training.
- analog31 12y ago
  This is really sad because I clearly remember all the way back to high school calculus class and again in college that we spent a lot of time with the definition of the derivative, deriving the rules before applying them, and having that whole business be on the test along with the regular plug-and-chug problems. It was at a liberal arts college. Roughly half of the math majors were headed into high school teaching, the other half were double majors with some other STEM discipline.
  - keithpeter 12y ago
    Well good for you and your teachers. I'll bet you were not taking nationally defined exams which do not stress derivation from first principles however...
    - analog31 12y ago
      That's definitely the case. It was the early 80's. Calculus in high school was still not widespread. We took it at 7 in the morning, before the regular school day, from the physics teacher who was delighted to finally teach calculus for the first time ever. He basically followed a mainstream college curriculum in class. But the subsequent college course followed the same pattern, and I don't think it was atypical for the time. It took a couple tries to drive it into my skull, but I did end up majoring in math. Turning math into a series of multiple choice questions that are answered by cranking through memorized algorithms... don't get me started.
Spooky23 12y ago
Sure they are. If you don't have a 3.5 cumulative GPA, your resume will be trashed by most companies.
analog31 12y ago
Just an aside... >>> Like any group of people given a metric they will try to game it. Reminds me of Paul Graham's interview question: Have you ever hacked something that wasn't a computer?
hrktb 12y ago
> No one is telling them that the game is about to end I'm not sure about that. During college, there was a few doors that were only open to students with some level of grades. I applied for an exchange program requiring recommandations from the college teachers, one them had the honesty to tell me straight "why should I recommand you with the very average grades you have now?" I did better at the next evaluations, and entered the program I wanted, leading almost directly to my first full time job after graduation. Even after entering professional life, there are so many companies with extremely naive perfomance grading, where at evaluation time you get comments like "we understand you put a lot of effort in <hard to quantify but long term positive stuff>, but following the letter of the rules, we have to cap your reward to this level because you didn't do <easy to quantify but almost irrelevant stuff >". Playing the game goes a long way in these organizations. To make it clear, I think people who care about learning and only so much about grades would have different privileges at school (better relations with the teachers, less stress, etc.) Same goes for college, where a student growing on a personal level and being curious about extra cursus stuffs will get attention and be more prepared for some aspects of their future professional life. I think these students go a different route, but not essentially better or worse than those playing the game.
- moomin 12y ago
  Meh, the easy to quantify stuff is applied on an ad-hoc basis. It's just a way to lie to employees who didn't win the popularity/politics contest.
  - hrktb 12y ago
    Isn't it somewhat the same thing ? Most of the time the people that care about popularity/politics will also take care of ripping the low hanging fruits to make it look good on paper. It's a good way to deflect criticism when anyone starts to ask questions.

by icefox 12y ago

timthorn 12y ago

The first point at which grades become important is the GCSE at 16 - perhaps they might start playing the game at 14/15 when choosing their options, but I don't this being the case all their life.

keithpeter 12y ago
SATs start at 11 in Maths, English and a sampling Science test. Teacher assessment on entry to primary school and informal assessment against NC at 7.
- timthorn 12y ago
  All of which are effectively meaningless for the pupils, only possible consequence might be the set they're given when they first enter secondary school - which should be readjusted very quickly if incorrectly assigned.
  - keithpeter 12y ago
    Er - not meaningless to their parents at all. Big stress area (I work in adult education). Those feelings will obviously be picked up by child.
MarcScott 12y ago
I have students who are excellent at both Computer Science and Systems & Control, who are not opting for the subjects at GCSE. Many have stated that they have chosen a softer subject to study that will give them some respite from study. With most students being forced to study 3 Sciences, Maths, English Language, English Literature, a Foreign Language and a Humanities subject, there is little wonder that they want at least one subject, from their optional choices, that they deem easy, if not particularly worth while.

keithpeter 12y ago

http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/what-maths-a-level-doesnt-necessarily-give-you/ http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/what-maths-a-level-do... Above a Field's medal winning mathematician having a conversation with a 17 year old A level student. Actually, my perception is that the grade gaming started fairly recently in the UK, around 10 to 15 years ago. The rhetoric of 'raising standards' came to mean 'more passing and higher grades'. As regards the parent post's last sentence ('Not one is telling them that the game is about to end.') some of my brighter Further Education students (vocational training) seem to have guessed. They are not going to University directly or at all but via placements in company training programmes or services training.

analog31 12y ago
This is really sad because I clearly remember all the way back to high school calculus class and again in college that we spent a lot of time with the definition of the derivative, deriving the rules before applying them, and having that whole business be on the test along with the regular plug-and-chug problems. It was at a liberal arts college. Roughly half of the math majors were headed into high school teaching, the other half were double majors with some other STEM discipline.
- keithpeter 12y ago
  Well good for you and your teachers. I'll bet you were not taking nationally defined exams which do not stress derivation from first principles however...
  - analog31 12y ago
    That's definitely the case. It was the early 80's. Calculus in high school was still not widespread. We took it at 7 in the morning, before the regular school day, from the physics teacher who was delighted to finally teach calculus for the first time ever. He basically followed a mainstream college curriculum in class. But the subsequent college course followed the same pattern, and I don't think it was atypical for the time. It took a couple tries to drive it into my skull, but I did end up majoring in math. Turning math into a series of multiple choice questions that are answered by cranking through memorized algorithms... don't get me started.

Spooky23 12y ago

Sure they are. If you don't have a 3.5 cumulative GPA, your resume will be trashed by most companies.

analog31 12y ago

Just an aside... >>> Like any group of people given a metric they will try to game it. Reminds me of Paul Graham's interview question: Have you ever hacked something that wasn't a computer?

hrktb 12y ago

> No one is telling them that the game is about to end I'm not sure about that. During college, there was a few doors that were only open to students with some level of grades. I applied for an exchange program requiring recommandations from the college teachers, one them had the honesty to tell me straight "why should I recommand you with the very average grades you have now?" I did better at the next evaluations, and entered the program I wanted, leading almost directly to my first full time job after graduation. Even after entering professional life, there are so many companies with extremely naive perfomance grading, where at evaluation time you get comments like "we understand you put a lot of effort in <hard to quantify but long term positive stuff>, but following the letter of the rules, we have to cap your reward to this level because you didn't do <easy to quantify but almost irrelevant stuff >". Playing the game goes a long way in these organizations. To make it clear, I think people who care about learning and only so much about grades would have different privileges at school (better relations with the teachers, less stress, etc.) Same goes for college, where a student growing on a personal level and being curious about extra cursus stuffs will get attention and be more prepared for some aspects of their future professional life. I think these students go a different route, but not essentially better or worse than those playing the game.

moomin 12y ago
Meh, the easy to quantify stuff is applied on an ad-hoc basis. It's just a way to lie to employees who didn't win the popularity/politics contest.
- hrktb 12y ago
  Isn't it somewhat the same thing ? Most of the time the people that care about popularity/politics will also take care of ripping the low hanging fruits to make it look good on paper. It's a good way to deflect criticism when anyone starts to ask questions.