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> Of course, it would be appalling for Google to fire Asians... > I think it would be equally appalling for it to fire, stop hiring, or hire fewer whites as we

> Of course, it would be appalling for Google to fire Asians... > I think it would be equally appalling for it to fire, stop hiring, or hire fewer whites as well. You think it would be? How have we got to the point where racism has to be rhetorically hedged in? In the UK, not only is it illegal to hire on the basis of race, but it's also deeply taboo. I like to think that a UK company would not have the racial data on their employees to compile such statistics. I hear a lot about "white males" from supposed leftists, and frankly it disgusts me. There is a large amount of casual racism that oozes from the American left under the guise of "equality".

nylonpsycho 12y ago
I am bothered by the last line in this comment; I think would agree if we all grew up in the exact same conditions with the exact same stigma against each one of us and exact same social, educational, and capital resources at our disposal, but we do not. Here's a dissenting opinion, or at least something to think about. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/05/millennials_racism_and_mtv_poll_young_people_are_confused_about_bias_prejudice.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201... It's worth considering that a workforce might be 90% "white male" because 90% of the time, the environment we live in nurtures "white males" to fit there better, not because intrinsically, 90% of the time "white males" are just better at it. That's not to say I disagree with the first part. Google isn't going to make people that don't fit in the job suddenly magical at it; however, I think it's important to recognize racial disparity as a problem that --will not fix itself if left alone--, instead of calling disgusting those who might consider an equalizing force somewhere in society to be important. These numbers clearly aren't so disparate because "no reason at all" or because "whites are just better," so why do you think they are? And also, how can we even have a discussion or make changes without paying specific attention to race?
- alextgordon 12y ago
  In Europe, there are many white people who are the subject of racism. In the UK there's racism towards Eastern Europeans and Irish Travellers. On a personal level, many of my (white) relatives were racially purged. That is why I find the term "white male" to be wholly disgusting. I can't speak for America's problems, only to say that if racism is your weapon to fight racism, then all you will achieve is to ensure its continuing existence.
bruceb 12y ago
I agree it "white males" has to stop being used as an epithet. It needless turns off people who would help normally make things better. The idea is to make sure everyone has a fair shot at a job not to hire by race. Many jobs are never advertised and the go to people who know people in power. Those people are more likely to be white or Asian then Hispanic or black.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
> I like to think that a UK company would not have the racial data on their employees to compile such statistics. France has that law, not the UK. And the safest (legally) kind of bias is definitely the bias that is undocumented.
- seszett 12y ago
  Actually, the French law against collecting race statistics applies exclusively to the government. Any company could theoretically ask for its employees origins, though it would then have to be very careful not to give any hint that it might take any kind of discriminatory action from this data. It's hard to think of a reason that would make this data useful to a company anyway. But private statistics institutes do collect it. Also, the government does have data regarding foreign citizenship and place of birth of immigrants, because that's not racial data. I don't think alextgordon was talking about law. I think he was saying that UK companies (just as French companies) would simply not care about collecting this data. Anyway... I realise the historical and cultural context is very different between UK/France and the US/Canada, but I think our approach of race is widely better. For an anecdotal data point, my wife is Canadian, and Asian. When we lived in Montreal every encounter with random people seemed to be an occasion for them to ask her "where she comes from", with a slight frown when they heard "Montreal" as an answer. People would talk to her in English, and to me in French. It felt strange to me and a bit weary for her. We live in France now, and where she comes from is a topic that never comes up, the last time it happened was with Flemish tourists. My parents didn't ask either at the time, they just assumed she was from Canada and most importantly that it was none of their business. I like this attitude.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    My wife is Chinese and I'm American. Every single bloody day the taxi drivers ask me where I come from. But then, China is not a very diverse place.
anigbrowl 12y ago
Crypto-racism from the left is a problem, but in fairness the legacy of slavery and civil rights abridgement is much more recent here in the US than it is in European countries. Slavery hasn't been institutionalized to the same degree in mainland Europe as it was in the US since Roman times - of course it wasn't absent because of colonialism, but nor was it ever so prevalent as to dominate local economies the way it did in the US. Class, gender, and property ownership were greater legal barriers to suffrage in most European countries than ethnic origin, and over a much longer timeframe - the Third Reich being the major exception to this trend. By contrast, in the US you had people systematically excluded from exercising the vote within the last 50 years, which is comparatively recent. I think the politicization of race has resulted in a great many misconceptions all across the political spectrum, but that doesn't mean you can just pay it some lip service and call the problem solved. I can find you equally obnoxious casual racism from the right, or you could just read the comments on American newspaper articles. I read a story this morning about some tourists visiting Chicago's Willis Tower who were frightened by superficial-but-not-obviously-so cracks in the building's observation deck, which is famous for having a glass floor. More than half the comments on the article consisted of suggestions that the tourists in question being Latinos from California, the cracks must have been caused by weapons in their pockets. WTF.
- alexeisadeski3 12y ago
  >>Crypto-racism from the left is a problem "Crypto"??
  - aydinhan 12y ago
    I think it means "latent" in this context.
- makomk 12y ago
  There was a feature article in The Atlantic recently that explored some of this recent history. Unpleasant stuff: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case...
- 12y ago

nylonpsycho 12y ago

I am bothered by the last line in this comment; I think would agree if we all grew up in the exact same conditions with the exact same stigma against each one of us and exact same social, educational, and capital resources at our disposal, but we do not. Here's a dissenting opinion, or at least something to think about. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/05/millennials_racism_and_mtv_poll_young_people_are_confused_about_bias_prejudice.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201... It's worth considering that a workforce might be 90% "white male" because 90% of the time, the environment we live in nurtures "white males" to fit there better, not because intrinsically, 90% of the time "white males" are just better at it. That's not to say I disagree with the first part. Google isn't going to make people that don't fit in the job suddenly magical at it; however, I think it's important to recognize racial disparity as a problem that --will not fix itself if left alone--, instead of calling disgusting those who might consider an equalizing force somewhere in society to be important. These numbers clearly aren't so disparate because "no reason at all" or because "whites are just better," so why do you think they are? And also, how can we even have a discussion or make changes without paying specific attention to race?

alextgordon 12y ago
In Europe, there are many white people who are the subject of racism. In the UK there's racism towards Eastern Europeans and Irish Travellers. On a personal level, many of my (white) relatives were racially purged. That is why I find the term "white male" to be wholly disgusting. I can't speak for America's problems, only to say that if racism is your weapon to fight racism, then all you will achieve is to ensure its continuing existence.

bruceb 12y ago

I agree it "white males" has to stop being used as an epithet. It needless turns off people who would help normally make things better. The idea is to make sure everyone has a fair shot at a job not to hire by race. Many jobs are never advertised and the go to people who know people in power. Those people are more likely to be white or Asian then Hispanic or black.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

> I like to think that a UK company would not have the racial data on their employees to compile such statistics. France has that law, not the UK. And the safest (legally) kind of bias is definitely the bias that is undocumented.

seszett 12y ago
Actually, the French law against collecting race statistics applies exclusively to the government. Any company could theoretically ask for its employees origins, though it would then have to be very careful not to give any hint that it might take any kind of discriminatory action from this data. It's hard to think of a reason that would make this data useful to a company anyway. But private statistics institutes do collect it. Also, the government does have data regarding foreign citizenship and place of birth of immigrants, because that's not racial data. I don't think alextgordon was talking about law. I think he was saying that UK companies (just as French companies) would simply not care about collecting this data. Anyway... I realise the historical and cultural context is very different between UK/France and the US/Canada, but I think our approach of race is widely better. For an anecdotal data point, my wife is Canadian, and Asian. When we lived in Montreal every encounter with random people seemed to be an occasion for them to ask her "where she comes from", with a slight frown when they heard "Montreal" as an answer. People would talk to her in English, and to me in French. It felt strange to me and a bit weary for her. We live in France now, and where she comes from is a topic that never comes up, the last time it happened was with Flemish tourists. My parents didn't ask either at the time, they just assumed she was from Canada and most importantly that it was none of their business. I like this attitude.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  My wife is Chinese and I'm American. Every single bloody day the taxi drivers ask me where I come from. But then, China is not a very diverse place.

anigbrowl 12y ago

Crypto-racism from the left is a problem, but in fairness the legacy of slavery and civil rights abridgement is much more recent here in the US than it is in European countries. Slavery hasn't been institutionalized to the same degree in mainland Europe as it was in the US since Roman times - of course it wasn't absent because of colonialism, but nor was it ever so prevalent as to dominate local economies the way it did in the US. Class, gender, and property ownership were greater legal barriers to suffrage in most European countries than ethnic origin, and over a much longer timeframe - the Third Reich being the major exception to this trend. By contrast, in the US you had people systematically excluded from exercising the vote within the last 50 years, which is comparatively recent. I think the politicization of race has resulted in a great many misconceptions all across the political spectrum, but that doesn't mean you can just pay it some lip service and call the problem solved. I can find you equally obnoxious casual racism from the right, or you could just read the comments on American newspaper articles. I read a story this morning about some tourists visiting Chicago's Willis Tower who were frightened by superficial-but-not-obviously-so cracks in the building's observation deck, which is famous for having a glass floor. More than half the comments on the article consisted of suggestions that the tourists in question being Latinos from California, the cracks must have been caused by weapons in their pockets. WTF.

alexeisadeski3 12y ago
>>Crypto-racism from the left is a problem "Crypto"??
- aydinhan 12y ago
  I think it means "latent" in this context.
makomk 12y ago
There was a feature article in The Atlantic recently that explored some of this recent history. Unpleasant stuff: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case...
12y ago