9 ms·

I remember when I worked in an auto-industry factory (as part of my training) in Japan, we wore caps with colored bands that denoted rank/category. New employee

I remember when I worked in an auto-industry factory (as part of my training) in Japan, we wore caps with colored bands that denoted rank/category. New employees were dark blue. Equipment/facility maintenance people wore yellow bands. "Management" inside the factory, as well as the white-collar employees had light blue. Outside guests wore red. Amidst this, workers with disabilities wore caps with green bands. Many were hearing impaired, but there were some with leg issues and others with some form of mental illnesses. This kind of categorization perhaps wouldn't fly in the States, but it seemed to aid the company's goal of having 5% of their factory workforce composed of people with various forms of disability (iirc). As knowledge workers, it's easy for us to dismiss bluecollar positions like these, but working at a enormous Toyota group company, receiving a great deal of training and a respectable wage (you can make quite a bit with overtime), and being part of something that produces countless goods into the world is a pretty good deal for people in a country where it's not illegal for potential employers to ask about your existing medical conditions during the interview process.

ekianjo 12y ago
> This kind of categorization perhaps wouldn't fly in the States I see this as a bit of a paradox in the States. There is always some discussion about how everyone should be treated as equal, yet your "race" (whatever that means in the age of genetics!) is recorded by the government, and minorities are tracked by employers even though this is absolutely not related with their skills. If i think too much about it, I'd call it madness.
- meric 12y ago
  And also levy high taxes on people to support the elderly through social security; the government reduces the ability for individual families to support its own elderly, because everyone's parents are equal.
- jwr 12y ago
  I also never understood this. Why ask about race if race is supposed not to matter?
  - prawn 12y ago
    To help get to the point where it truly doesn't matter.
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      As long as you track it, you make it matter. That's the point. The observer always has an impact on what is measured. That's a very well know principle.
      - barrkel 12y ago
        And if you make sure you don't track it, you don't know whether you have a problem or not.
        ekianjo 12y ago
        It seems like most countries live perfectly fine without tracking people's races.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        mattzito 12y ago
        How would they know? Without tracking race (self-identified or otherwise) as a reference point for other data, countries could have a terrible problem discriminating against people based on the color of their skin and no one would know.
        afarrell 12y ago
        Don't most countries have problems with ethnosectarian tensions or oppression or violence?
  - wavefunction 12y ago
    They track it to look for unequal hiring practices. Which is an actual and ongoing problem and one the US Federal government is involved with and interested in fighting.
- aragot 12y ago
  "Race"? In France it is forbidden to ask or record the religion or color of skin. Thus, it is forbidden to make statistics about it. Of course it is not the same about people with a handicap.
  - tomp 12y ago
    Weird, in the UK I recall seeing (non-obligatory) questionnaires about ethnicity, so that they can make sure they are an "equal opportunity employer".
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      How many categories they have for ethnicity ? I'm asking because the whole concept of Race came from White anthropologists in the 18-19th century who wanted to demonstrate that the white man was above every other race around. So it seems very backward to use the same kind of criteria.
      - JonnieCache 12y ago
        The census and the police use a system of "self defined ethnicity", and other official forms use similar categories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_Defined_Ethnicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_Defined_Ethnicity
    - shubb 12y ago
      Yeah, those are for statistical use only. The employer can't discriminate in either direction based on that information (which is why it gets a special section of the application for that can get torn out). But they do need to record the charecatristics of people who are applying, and people who are getting hired, so they can spot rascist managers, etc.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    By the way, in Germany, they don't track your race, but they ask you for your religion when you move there. And it's actually a trap ! If you answer that you have any, suddenly you'll see a religion tax (deducted from your salary every month) going to your religion of choice. In Germany is literally "pays" to be agnostic.
- rayiner 12y ago
  It's not a paradox. We have a lot of discussion in the U.S. about how everyone should be treated equally as a response to our historical and continuing failure to treat people equally. We keep track of race as a way to monitor our progress on that front. When you start tracking, you might be surprised by how little your organization is doing to treat people equally: http://www.google.com/diversity/at-google.html#tab=tech http://www.google.com/diversity/at-google.html#tab=tech.
  - JPKab 12y ago
    The problem the US has in this regard is the blunt, stupid way we do it. "Race" is an example. I work at a consulting company with very competitive hiring. Many of my teammates are "African American" according to the standard US classification, but guess what? Most of them, although born and raised in the US, are the children of Nigerian immigrants. A candid discussion with one of my co-workers on a recent business trip revealed his issue with this. He is a descendent of slaves, and has roots in Alabama and Georgia. The policies of correcting for slavery, Jim Crow, and its resulting consequences are benefiting people who, due to immigrating in the last 30 years, weren't affected by it. My company is getting credit, the universities who admit these students are getting credit, and none are actually addressing the true group of people who were historically forbidden the right to read, to work, to own land, or to get an education of any kind. He isn't at all angry at our wonderful Nigerian-American coworkers.... he just feels that these hamfisted measures could easily be adjusted to help the groups they were designed to. Having a broad spectrum of people with different levels of melanin may be one indicator of diversity, but it can be a poor one. I have never, ever worked on a software team with another person who grew up in a trailer park or even has Appalachian roots. But its cool. Another white guy who grew up in Sunnyvale is going to be exactly the same as me, because we both have northern European ancestry. Problem solved.
    - thecyborganizer 12y ago
      One of the complicated things about race is that it has to do with not just how we see ourselves, but how others see us. A family of Nigerian immigrants might not feel the legacy of Jim Crow laws in the same way as a family descended from slaves, but racists will apply the same anti-black stereotypes to both groups.
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  The "Race" sections on government and employee forms always have an opt-out/no-response option. They're not tracking anyone against their will. It sounds a bit like you're perceiving the world as it should be, rather than as it is. Of course you and I know that "race" is nearly meaningless in terms of actual ability--but as long as there is widespread, systematic discrimination based on skin color, race remains very real in practice. You can't fight that discrimination by passing a law against it and then pretending everything is perfect forever. You need to be able to see where and how racism persists and fight it on the ground, and to do that you need to track the comparative treatment and experience of different people.
sliverstorm 12y ago
It certainly seems like it could be handy to have those flags, especially in a labor-based job. From a safety perspective, I'd think it is a win if people are immediately aware that person X has a disability. Then they find out what it is, and act accordingly...

ekianjo 12y ago

> This kind of categorization perhaps wouldn't fly in the States I see this as a bit of a paradox in the States. There is always some discussion about how everyone should be treated as equal, yet your "race" (whatever that means in the age of genetics!) is recorded by the government, and minorities are tracked by employers even though this is absolutely not related with their skills. If i think too much about it, I'd call it madness.

meric 12y ago
And also levy high taxes on people to support the elderly through social security; the government reduces the ability for individual families to support its own elderly, because everyone's parents are equal.
jwr 12y ago
I also never understood this. Why ask about race if race is supposed not to matter?
- prawn 12y ago
  To help get to the point where it truly doesn't matter.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    As long as you track it, you make it matter. That's the point. The observer always has an impact on what is measured. That's a very well know principle.
    - barrkel 12y ago
      And if you make sure you don't track it, you don't know whether you have a problem or not.
      - ekianjo 12y ago
        It seems like most countries live perfectly fine without tracking people's races.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        mattzito 12y ago
        How would they know? Without tracking race (self-identified or otherwise) as a reference point for other data, countries could have a terrible problem discriminating against people based on the color of their skin and no one would know.
        afarrell 12y ago
        Don't most countries have problems with ethnosectarian tensions or oppression or violence?
- wavefunction 12y ago
  They track it to look for unequal hiring practices. Which is an actual and ongoing problem and one the US Federal government is involved with and interested in fighting.
aragot 12y ago
"Race"? In France it is forbidden to ask or record the religion or color of skin. Thus, it is forbidden to make statistics about it. Of course it is not the same about people with a handicap.
- tomp 12y ago
  Weird, in the UK I recall seeing (non-obligatory) questionnaires about ethnicity, so that they can make sure they are an "equal opportunity employer".
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    How many categories they have for ethnicity ? I'm asking because the whole concept of Race came from White anthropologists in the 18-19th century who wanted to demonstrate that the white man was above every other race around. So it seems very backward to use the same kind of criteria.
    - JonnieCache 12y ago
      The census and the police use a system of "self defined ethnicity", and other official forms use similar categories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_Defined_Ethnicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_Defined_Ethnicity
  - shubb 12y ago
    Yeah, those are for statistical use only. The employer can't discriminate in either direction based on that information (which is why it gets a special section of the application for that can get torn out). But they do need to record the charecatristics of people who are applying, and people who are getting hired, so they can spot rascist managers, etc.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  By the way, in Germany, they don't track your race, but they ask you for your religion when you move there. And it's actually a trap ! If you answer that you have any, suddenly you'll see a religion tax (deducted from your salary every month) going to your religion of choice. In Germany is literally "pays" to be agnostic.
rayiner 12y ago
It's not a paradox. We have a lot of discussion in the U.S. about how everyone should be treated equally as a response to our historical and continuing failure to treat people equally. We keep track of race as a way to monitor our progress on that front. When you start tracking, you might be surprised by how little your organization is doing to treat people equally: http://www.google.com/diversity/at-google.html#tab=tech http://www.google.com/diversity/at-google.html#tab=tech.
- JPKab 12y ago
  The problem the US has in this regard is the blunt, stupid way we do it. "Race" is an example. I work at a consulting company with very competitive hiring. Many of my teammates are "African American" according to the standard US classification, but guess what? Most of them, although born and raised in the US, are the children of Nigerian immigrants. A candid discussion with one of my co-workers on a recent business trip revealed his issue with this. He is a descendent of slaves, and has roots in Alabama and Georgia. The policies of correcting for slavery, Jim Crow, and its resulting consequences are benefiting people who, due to immigrating in the last 30 years, weren't affected by it. My company is getting credit, the universities who admit these students are getting credit, and none are actually addressing the true group of people who were historically forbidden the right to read, to work, to own land, or to get an education of any kind. He isn't at all angry at our wonderful Nigerian-American coworkers.... he just feels that these hamfisted measures could easily be adjusted to help the groups they were designed to. Having a broad spectrum of people with different levels of melanin may be one indicator of diversity, but it can be a poor one. I have never, ever worked on a software team with another person who grew up in a trailer park or even has Appalachian roots. But its cool. Another white guy who grew up in Sunnyvale is going to be exactly the same as me, because we both have northern European ancestry. Problem solved.
  - thecyborganizer 12y ago
    One of the complicated things about race is that it has to do with not just how we see ourselves, but how others see us. A family of Nigerian immigrants might not feel the legacy of Jim Crow laws in the same way as a family descended from slaves, but racists will apply the same anti-black stereotypes to both groups.
PhasmaFelis 12y ago
The "Race" sections on government and employee forms always have an opt-out/no-response option. They're not tracking anyone against their will. It sounds a bit like you're perceiving the world as it should be, rather than as it is. Of course you and I know that "race" is nearly meaningless in terms of actual ability--but as long as there is widespread, systematic discrimination based on skin color, race remains very real in practice. You can't fight that discrimination by passing a law against it and then pretending everything is perfect forever. You need to be able to see where and how racism persists and fight it on the ground, and to do that you need to track the comparative treatment and experience of different people.

sliverstorm 12y ago

It certainly seems like it could be handy to have those flags, especially in a labor-based job. From a safety perspective, I'd think it is a win if people are immediately aware that person X has a disability. Then they find out what it is, and act accordingly...