7 ms·

Inferring Status and Competence from Signals of Nonconformity (2013) [pdf]

72 points by 001sky 12y ago

jiggy2011 12y ago
So, if you're sitting around writing code then make sure you're the best dressed person in the room. Then on the way to the boardroom for an IPO meeting change into the sweat pants and hoodie.
- Swizec 12y ago
  As a software engineer who actually kinda cares what they look like, I usually end up overdressed for most occasions and when I'm in a proper business meeting I end up being underdressed (because I'm dressed the same). So I guess I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to?
  - jiggy2011 12y ago
    "An investigationof boundary conditions demonstrates that the positive inferences disappear whenthe observer is unfamiliar with the environment, when the nonconforming behavioris depicted as unintentional, and in the absence of expected norms and sharedstandards of formal conduct" So if you're dressing that way out of laziness or apathy it doesn't count, you have to be non-conforming on purpose.
    - Swizec 12y ago
      Grey area. I have a very distinct style that is my own. It is done on purpose and I have been known to be late for things because it took me too long to choose what to wear. The style doesn't really conform to anything. So while I'm not being nonconforming to be nonconforming, I am also particular about what I wear. The only times when my dress is purely a matter of convenience/laziness is when I'm at home or working out.
    - MarkPNeyer 12y ago
      i think you're reading this wrong. laziness and apathy are intentional; the decision is made not to conform. unintentional noncomformance would be someone who didn't even realize there WAS a standard. it's like buying a $100 pair of sunglasses because you really like them, vs. buying a $100 pair of sunglasses because you saw them and thought 'oh hey, sunglasses.' people see the former as the decision of a savvy person, the latter as that of a fool.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      What if you are dressing down as a way to be more productive? I mean, you can't work 12 hours straight in a suit and tie, while changing after 8 would lead to inefficiency. As an aside, has anyone fathomed that some clothes are good for thinking and coding while others are good for meetings and customer engagement?
      - sigil 12y ago
        > some clothes are good for thinking and coding while others are good for meetings and customer engagement It's all about credibility indicators, and they go both ways. A founder friend relates a story about the day he gave in and started wearing suits. He has a tech background and is generally averse to display, but noticed that wearing a suit was correlated with shorter meetings. On the flip side, when he dressed casually, there was a longer proving period at the beginning of every meeting where he had to establish credibility in spite appearances / signalling. So, he started bringing a suit along everywhere as a "make meetings shorter" hack. Pretty sure he plain old enjoys wearing suits at this point though.
        ams6110 12y ago
        In the span of almost 25 years I've had only two jobs where everyone wore a suit and tie to work. While not exactly the most comfortable thing to wear, there was something about formal business attire that seemed to put everyone more or less in a productive frame of mind. For me it was sort of a feeling that "I'm dressed for work, so I should work." A mid-day impromptu game of frisbee was unlikely. It also helped separate work/home life. After work, when you got home, the act of taking off the suit--the uniform of work--was a ritual that signified "I am done working for the day." It was nice. I can't say I really ever enjoyed wearing suits, but they had their benefits.
- asogi 12y ago
  The problem with overdressing (as an engineer) is that outside visitors will assume that you're not an engineer.
  - jiggy2011 12y ago
    I imagine that could be used to your advantage if you played it right.
  - Swizec 12y ago
    You can overdress in a way that still makes it super obvious you're not being "dressy". Unconventional accessories are always a good pick. Like, you can be wearing the nicest of tuxedo pants with the nicest of button-down shirts, but adding just the right hat or scarf magically turns it into a casual outfit.
    - Kaizyn 12y ago
      This is beyond the capability and competency of any decent engineer.
    - csq 12y ago
      I have to say, this advice sounds a bit unsound. "Unconventional accessories are always a good pick" is playing with fire, as is recommending tuxedo pants, a button down, and a hat or scarf. Have you seen what nerds do when told it's okay to wear hats?
      - ForHackernews 12y ago
        Fedoras, fedoras everywhere...
        dllthomas 12y ago
        Nothing wrong with a (real) fedora...
        12y ago
thuuuomas 12y ago
"Everything rich people do is correct!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGPjUyVtTQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGPjUyVtTQw
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
trhway 12y ago
obligatory on nonconformity, status and dressing in particular - "Office Space" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BjGA7Qs75g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BjGA7Qs75g
michaelochurch 12y ago
2013: the academy discovers peacocking. (If that sounds snarky, most principles of "Game" apply to business. In fact, part of what makes Game so creepy is that it's men applying sales tactics to the early stages of romantic relationships, where that transactional mentality shouldn't apply. Most nerds would do well to develop "work Game".)
- rayiner 12y ago
  I find it creepy in the opposite direction. Whenever I meet an over-aggressive networker I feel he's trying to pick me up.
h1karu 12y ago
same phenomena can be observed in gangsta rap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15z3MU3Zel8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15z3MU3Zel8 peace up, a-town down
dsr_ 12y ago
Yes, and that's one of the reasons why I used to have very long hair (I'm male) and now shave my head. The status marker is a visible sign that I am comfortable in my position, and further that I am comfortable enough with my abilities that I don't think it will be an impediment to getting another job. (Another reason was that I liked having long hair, and the few months when I was short-haired before shaving made me unhappy.)
jgalt212 12y ago
This is all well and good, but sometimes people dressed like jackasses actually are jackasses.
- bra-ket 12y ago
  so true, especially dudes wearing shorts and sandals on every.single.occasion, or the turtleneck people
ww520 12y ago
That's why sometimes wearing a suit and tie to a customer meeting to do technical presentation loses creditability.
jksmith 12y ago
white linen suit, blue t shirt, brutinis with no socks, golang

72 points by 001sky 12y ago

jiggy2011 12y ago

So, if you're sitting around writing code then make sure you're the best dressed person in the room. Then on the way to the boardroom for an IPO meeting change into the sweat pants and hoodie.

Swizec 12y ago
As a software engineer who actually kinda cares what they look like, I usually end up overdressed for most occasions and when I'm in a proper business meeting I end up being underdressed (because I'm dressed the same). So I guess I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to?
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  "An investigationof boundary conditions demonstrates that the positive inferences disappear whenthe observer is unfamiliar with the environment, when the nonconforming behavioris depicted as unintentional, and in the absence of expected norms and sharedstandards of formal conduct" So if you're dressing that way out of laziness or apathy it doesn't count, you have to be non-conforming on purpose.
  - Swizec 12y ago
    Grey area. I have a very distinct style that is my own. It is done on purpose and I have been known to be late for things because it took me too long to choose what to wear. The style doesn't really conform to anything. So while I'm not being nonconforming to be nonconforming, I am also particular about what I wear. The only times when my dress is purely a matter of convenience/laziness is when I'm at home or working out.
  - MarkPNeyer 12y ago
    i think you're reading this wrong. laziness and apathy are intentional; the decision is made not to conform. unintentional noncomformance would be someone who didn't even realize there WAS a standard. it's like buying a $100 pair of sunglasses because you really like them, vs. buying a $100 pair of sunglasses because you saw them and thought 'oh hey, sunglasses.' people see the former as the decision of a savvy person, the latter as that of a fool.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    What if you are dressing down as a way to be more productive? I mean, you can't work 12 hours straight in a suit and tie, while changing after 8 would lead to inefficiency. As an aside, has anyone fathomed that some clothes are good for thinking and coding while others are good for meetings and customer engagement?
    - sigil 12y ago
      > some clothes are good for thinking and coding while others are good for meetings and customer engagement It's all about credibility indicators, and they go both ways. A founder friend relates a story about the day he gave in and started wearing suits. He has a tech background and is generally averse to display, but noticed that wearing a suit was correlated with shorter meetings. On the flip side, when he dressed casually, there was a longer proving period at the beginning of every meeting where he had to establish credibility in spite appearances / signalling. So, he started bringing a suit along everywhere as a "make meetings shorter" hack. Pretty sure he plain old enjoys wearing suits at this point though.
      - ams6110 12y ago
        In the span of almost 25 years I've had only two jobs where everyone wore a suit and tie to work. While not exactly the most comfortable thing to wear, there was something about formal business attire that seemed to put everyone more or less in a productive frame of mind. For me it was sort of a feeling that "I'm dressed for work, so I should work." A mid-day impromptu game of frisbee was unlikely. It also helped separate work/home life. After work, when you got home, the act of taking off the suit--the uniform of work--was a ritual that signified "I am done working for the day." It was nice. I can't say I really ever enjoyed wearing suits, but they had their benefits.
asogi 12y ago
The problem with overdressing (as an engineer) is that outside visitors will assume that you're not an engineer.
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  I imagine that could be used to your advantage if you played it right.
- Swizec 12y ago
  You can overdress in a way that still makes it super obvious you're not being "dressy". Unconventional accessories are always a good pick. Like, you can be wearing the nicest of tuxedo pants with the nicest of button-down shirts, but adding just the right hat or scarf magically turns it into a casual outfit.
  - Kaizyn 12y ago
    This is beyond the capability and competency of any decent engineer.
  - csq 12y ago
    I have to say, this advice sounds a bit unsound. "Unconventional accessories are always a good pick" is playing with fire, as is recommending tuxedo pants, a button down, and a hat or scarf. Have you seen what nerds do when told it's okay to wear hats?
    - ForHackernews 12y ago
      Fedoras, fedoras everywhere...
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        Nothing wrong with a (real) fedora...
        12y ago

thuuuomas 12y ago

"Everything rich people do is correct!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGPjUyVtTQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGPjUyVtTQw

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

trhway 12y ago

obligatory on nonconformity, status and dressing in particular - "Office Space" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BjGA7Qs75g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BjGA7Qs75g

michaelochurch 12y ago

2013: the academy discovers peacocking. (If that sounds snarky, most principles of "Game" apply to business. In fact, part of what makes Game so creepy is that it's men applying sales tactics to the early stages of romantic relationships, where that transactional mentality shouldn't apply. Most nerds would do well to develop "work Game".)

rayiner 12y ago
I find it creepy in the opposite direction. Whenever I meet an over-aggressive networker I feel he's trying to pick me up.

h1karu 12y ago

same phenomena can be observed in gangsta rap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15z3MU3Zel8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15z3MU3Zel8 peace up, a-town down

dsr_ 12y ago

Yes, and that's one of the reasons why I used to have very long hair (I'm male) and now shave my head. The status marker is a visible sign that I am comfortable in my position, and further that I am comfortable enough with my abilities that I don't think it will be an impediment to getting another job. (Another reason was that I liked having long hair, and the few months when I was short-haired before shaving made me unhappy.)

jgalt212 12y ago

This is all well and good, but sometimes people dressed like jackasses actually are jackasses.

bra-ket 12y ago
so true, especially dudes wearing shorts and sandals on every.single.occasion, or the turtleneck people

ww520 12y ago

That's why sometimes wearing a suit and tie to a customer meeting to do technical presentation loses creditability.

jksmith 12y ago

white linen suit, blue t shirt, brutinis with no socks, golang