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Hacker Who Helped Disrupt Cyberattacks Is Allowed to Walk Free

melville_X 12y ago
For anyone who wants to see a preview of Sabu's entrapment of anonymous members, one of his chat logs were leaked: http://cryptome.org/2012/09/sanguinarious-sabu.htm http://cryptome.org/2012/09/sanguinarious-sabu.htm > Why is an informant going around throwing out a location to a claimed cache of classified documents concerning SCADA systems? So this is like a textbook attempt at entrapment, its akin to giving someone a key to a door but telling them its legal to open it with, someone being an informant, to take them down after. It also does not appear the FBI gives not one fuck about the security of critical infrastructure as long as it entraps another kid. Nothing at all wrong here is there? Full transcript: http://cryptome.org/2014/05/sabu-m45t3rs4d0w8-2012-0330-0524.pdf http://cryptome.org/2014/05/sabu-m45t3rs4d0w8-2012-0330-0524... Perfect example of the FBI looking for easy arrests using morally-vague methods of entrapment, instead of doing the hard work and stopping real criminal conspiracies. This is a technique they perfected in domestic terrorism cases where they find dumb criminals with no skill, financing, or strong motivation, then give them all of the resources and information they need to do conduct a real scheme. While holding their hand along the way. Makes great headlines when they arrest someone "domestic terrorist caught by FBI!" but hardly a good use of resources when they keep missing real terrorist attacks. Bruce Schneier nailed it in 2007: https://www.schneier.com/essay-174.html https://www.schneier.com/essay-174.html. None of the 'foiled plots' were ever a real threat until the FBI showed up. People could argue these people should be in jail anyway but they are hardly worth the skill and resources of the most advanced investigators in the country.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  I suspect a hell of a lot of time is wasted in basically trolling the mentally ill on facebook.
- afarrell 12y ago
  Quick illustrated guide to what the legal concept of Entrapment actually is: http://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-was-entrapped http://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-wa... By a former New York prosecutor.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    This whole series is pretty great. The cheat sheet here: Entrapment requires: (1) a causal relationship between police action and the accused's commission of a crime, and (2) the police overcoming some demonstrable resistance to the commission of that crime, or the accused otherwise demonstrating that the police somehow corrupted them into committing a crime they would not have been predisposed to commit otherwise. The "entrapment myths" in the comic: 1. That the police have to tell you that they're cops, or are somehow not allowed to deceive you into committing a crime. (No). 2. That the police cannot ask you to commit a crime. (No). 3. That the police cannot break the law themselves to get themselves into a position to see you commit a crime. (No). 4. That the police cannot help you commit a crime. (No). 5. That the police cannot allow you to commit a crime or somehow give you the impression that your actions are lawful and then arrest you. (No). The law expects you to actively resist an entreaty from anyone --- undercover cop, uniformed cop, friend, family member --- to knowingly break the law. The example the comic gives of an unreasonable effort to break through resistance: appealing to a friend to aid in the commission of a crime because your life depends on it, putting the accused in a position where a reasonable ordinary person might choose to participate in the crime as the lesser of two evils. That's entrapment. Furthermore, as I understand it, and this may be state-by-state, but entrapment is doubly difficult to employ in a defense because it's an affirmative defense: to raise "entrapment", you must first acknowledge that you committed the crime in all its particulars, and then claim that your excuse was that you were entrapped.
    - melville_X 12y ago
      Yes that's the definition of entrapment as interpreted by American courts. Very challenging for lawyers to use as a defense. Which is exactly why law enforcement loves using informants and undercover agents for everything these days. In heavily bureaucratic agencies like the FBI, the only thing that matters is looking good to management by getting arrests and 'foiling plots'. So why not go for some easy prosecutions? You'll be upper management in no time. Plus there are a ton of dumb people and nearly everything is a crime these days, so all you have to do his handout a crime on a platter and fill prisons with the incompetent criminals who take the bait. Why hunt down criminals when you can fish for dumb ones.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- thefreeman 12y ago
  Oddly enough, I keep getting a bad signature on that post using the public key here: https://sanguinarious.wordpress.com/gpg-public-key/ https://sanguinarious.wordpress.com/gpg-public-key/ Anyone else having this issue? I am no expert in with gpg so it could be on my end.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
codesuela 12y ago
The article tries to frame him like a noble hacker who turned to the good side but in fact he remains a backstabbing snitch. Does anyone here have respect for what he did?
- dobbsbob 12y ago
  His last few months as a snitch he changed his twitter pic to an islamic black standard militant flag and was openly calling for violence and 'cyber-terrorism'. Ridiculous
  - EpicEng 12y ago
    What would you have him do; change his profile pic to a US flag while working undercover?
    - serf 12y ago
      I'd have him continue his previous activities in a similar fashion to avoid the chance that his current actions are a message to important actors that he has been poisoned or is being watched in some way. everyone knows he's an actor for the state anyway, but a quick temperance change online would be a pretty big red flag for many.
      - dobbsbob 12y ago
        It was a red flag. One day he is lulzsec doing lulzy mischief, disappears and comes back inciting terrorism and giving big ups to reactionary militant islam.
- dublinben 12y ago
  I doubt it. He will probably never be able to find work in the tech industry again. If I were an employer, and searched his name, I would toss his resume.
  - dobbsbob 12y ago
Rancidcoleslaw 12y ago
For anyone that doesn't know, "We Are Anonymous" was an interesting read chronicling this whole event. I enjoyed it.
mpyne 12y ago
Remember guys... this ("rolling" captured suspects to unwind a large criminal network) is the "good old-fashioned police work" you all say that the NSA should be doing instead of using surveillance.
- munin 12y ago
  I think HNs idea of old fashioned police work is a Victorian Bobby interrupting a back alley mugging by saying "wots all this then", and anything else is Stalinist
bernardom 12y ago
Given the conversations here[1][2] on how PR firms plant articles all the time, I've been thinking a lot about who benefits from each article I read in the NYT. This one seems like a very obvious benefit for the FBI. The government wants it well known that "look, if you really cooperate we'll totally definitely let you go later." Of course, all the cases where the defendant cooperated and still went to jail don't make the media. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2532759#up_2532885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2532759#up_2532885 [3] There are others, too lazy to list.
- fleitz 12y ago
  Exactly, remember the guy who helped expose all the UBS tax evasion? He got 40 months and a $30K fine, UBS got nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Birkenfeld http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Birkenfeld
- Zigurd 12y ago
  A lot of "news" consists of swallowing an official position whole. It's nicely packaged. The journalists are dependent on access. Why rock the boat?
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  It's possible to over-apply pg's "submarine" essay. In this case the press is actually reporting on a newsworthy event. Pg even notes this outright in his essay: > Of the stories you read in traditional media that aren't about politics, crimes, or disasters, more than half probably come from PR firms.
TempleOS 12y ago
God exists. That pretty-much reverses bad and good. The FBI is evil against God. I am good with God. Simple as that.

For anyone who wants to see a preview of Sabu's entrapment of anonymous members, one of his chat logs were leaked: http://cryptome.org/2012/09/sanguinarious-sabu.htm http://cryptome.org/2012/09/sanguinarious-sabu.htm > Why is an informant going around throwing out a location to a claimed cache of classified documents concerning SCADA systems? So this is like a textbook attempt at entrapment, its akin to giving someone a key to a door but telling them its legal to open it with, someone being an informant, to take them down after. It also does not appear the FBI gives not one fuck about the security of critical infrastructure as long as it entraps another kid. Nothing at all wrong here is there? Full transcript: http://cryptome.org/2014/05/sabu-m45t3rs4d0w8-2012-0330-0524.pdf http://cryptome.org/2014/05/sabu-m45t3rs4d0w8-2012-0330-0524... Perfect example of the FBI looking for easy arrests using morally-vague methods of entrapment, instead of doing the hard work and stopping real criminal conspiracies. This is a technique they perfected in domestic terrorism cases where they find dumb criminals with no skill, financing, or strong motivation, then give them all of the resources and information they need to do conduct a real scheme. While holding their hand along the way. Makes great headlines when they arrest someone "domestic terrorist caught by FBI!" but hardly a good use of resources when they keep missing real terrorist attacks. Bruce Schneier nailed it in 2007: https://www.schneier.com/essay-174.html https://www.schneier.com/essay-174.html. None of the 'foiled plots' were ever a real threat until the FBI showed up. People could argue these people should be in jail anyway but they are hardly worth the skill and resources of the most advanced investigators in the country.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
I suspect a hell of a lot of time is wasted in basically trolling the mentally ill on facebook.
afarrell 12y ago
Quick illustrated guide to what the legal concept of Entrapment actually is: http://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-was-entrapped http://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/post/19810672629/12-i-wa... By a former New York prosecutor.
- tptacek 12y ago
  This whole series is pretty great. The cheat sheet here: Entrapment requires: (1) a causal relationship between police action and the accused's commission of a crime, and (2) the police overcoming some demonstrable resistance to the commission of that crime, or the accused otherwise demonstrating that the police somehow corrupted them into committing a crime they would not have been predisposed to commit otherwise. The "entrapment myths" in the comic: 1. That the police have to tell you that they're cops, or are somehow not allowed to deceive you into committing a crime. (No). 2. That the police cannot ask you to commit a crime. (No). 3. That the police cannot break the law themselves to get themselves into a position to see you commit a crime. (No). 4. That the police cannot help you commit a crime. (No). 5. That the police cannot allow you to commit a crime or somehow give you the impression that your actions are lawful and then arrest you. (No). The law expects you to actively resist an entreaty from anyone --- undercover cop, uniformed cop, friend, family member --- to knowingly break the law. The example the comic gives of an unreasonable effort to break through resistance: appealing to a friend to aid in the commission of a crime because your life depends on it, putting the accused in a position where a reasonable ordinary person might choose to participate in the crime as the lesser of two evils. That's entrapment. Furthermore, as I understand it, and this may be state-by-state, but entrapment is doubly difficult to employ in a defense because it's an affirmative defense: to raise "entrapment", you must first acknowledge that you committed the crime in all its particulars, and then claim that your excuse was that you were entrapped.
  - melville_X 12y ago
    Yes that's the definition of entrapment as interpreted by American courts. Very challenging for lawyers to use as a defense. Which is exactly why law enforcement loves using informants and undercover agents for everything these days. In heavily bureaucratic agencies like the FBI, the only thing that matters is looking good to management by getting arrests and 'foiling plots'. So why not go for some easy prosecutions? You'll be upper management in no time. Plus there are a ton of dumb people and nearly everything is a crime these days, so all you have to do his handout a crime on a platter and fill prisons with the incompetent criminals who take the bait. Why hunt down criminals when you can fish for dumb ones.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
thefreeman 12y ago
Oddly enough, I keep getting a bad signature on that post using the public key here: https://sanguinarious.wordpress.com/gpg-public-key/ https://sanguinarious.wordpress.com/gpg-public-key/ Anyone else having this issue? I am no expert in with gpg so it could be on my end.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

codesuela 12y ago

The article tries to frame him like a noble hacker who turned to the good side but in fact he remains a backstabbing snitch. Does anyone here have respect for what he did?

dobbsbob 12y ago
His last few months as a snitch he changed his twitter pic to an islamic black standard militant flag and was openly calling for violence and 'cyber-terrorism'. Ridiculous
- EpicEng 12y ago
  What would you have him do; change his profile pic to a US flag while working undercover?
  - serf 12y ago
    I'd have him continue his previous activities in a similar fashion to avoid the chance that his current actions are a message to important actors that he has been poisoned or is being watched in some way. everyone knows he's an actor for the state anyway, but a quick temperance change online would be a pretty big red flag for many.
    - dobbsbob 12y ago
      It was a red flag. One day he is lulzsec doing lulzy mischief, disappears and comes back inciting terrorism and giving big ups to reactionary militant islam.
dublinben 12y ago
I doubt it. He will probably never be able to find work in the tech industry again. If I were an employer, and searched his name, I would toss his resume.
- dobbsbob 12y ago

Rancidcoleslaw 12y ago

For anyone that doesn't know, "We Are Anonymous" was an interesting read chronicling this whole event. I enjoyed it.

mpyne 12y ago

Remember guys... this ("rolling" captured suspects to unwind a large criminal network) is the "good old-fashioned police work" you all say that the NSA should be doing instead of using surveillance.

munin 12y ago
I think HNs idea of old fashioned police work is a Victorian Bobby interrupting a back alley mugging by saying "wots all this then", and anything else is Stalinist

bernardom 12y ago

Given the conversations here[1][2] on how PR firms plant articles all the time, I've been thinking a lot about who benefits from each article I read in the NYT. This one seems like a very obvious benefit for the FBI. The government wants it well known that "look, if you really cooperate we'll totally definitely let you go later." Of course, all the cases where the defendant cooperated and still went to jail don't make the media. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2532759#up_2532885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2532759#up_2532885 [3] There are others, too lazy to list.

fleitz 12y ago
Exactly, remember the guy who helped expose all the UBS tax evasion? He got 40 months and a $30K fine, UBS got nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Birkenfeld http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Birkenfeld
Zigurd 12y ago
A lot of "news" consists of swallowing an official position whole. It's nicely packaged. The journalists are dependent on access. Why rock the boat?
snowwrestler 12y ago
It's possible to over-apply pg's "submarine" essay. In this case the press is actually reporting on a newsworthy event. Pg even notes this outright in his essay: > Of the stories you read in traditional media that aren't about politics, crimes, or disasters, more than half probably come from PR firms.

TempleOS 12y ago

God exists. That pretty-much reverses bad and good. The FBI is evil against God. I am good with God. Simple as that.