5 ms·

This just seems like an ad hominem attack. Just because the author works at Microsoft does not mean that he is speaking for Microsoft or talking on their behalf

by jhh 12y ago

This just seems like an ad hominem attack. Just because the author works at Microsoft does not mean that he is speaking for Microsoft or talking on their behalf.

illumen 12y ago
It's not just an ad hominem attack. I counter a number of his claims. The author provides NO evidence for any of the rubbish he's talking about.
- the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
  There are barely any users of Python 3. New versions of Python 3 are mostly only picked up by other Python 3 users. Python 2 is growing faster in downloads than Python 3 is by PyPI numbers. That is a problem.
  - illumen 12y ago
    Do you have a link for these numbers?
    - the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
      I tweeted about this a while ago, I don't have the numbers at hand. Unfortunately to get those numbers you need to nudge the pypi maintainer as the data dump is too large to keep in a database without wasting money. As such if I would want to run the report again I would need to import multi gigabytes of logs again which takes time.
      - kaeawc 12y ago
        I'll take your word for it then ^_^
      - illumen 12y ago
        Currently python 3 packages ported are at about 10.9% according to pypi. This isn't including separate source downloads, so I guess the number would be higher by a few percentage points. There was a post by Alex Gaynor in January [0] about downloads for python 3 being at 2.4%. But that was before python 3.4 came out, and before some major libraries were finally ported like Twisted. Twisted not being ported was one of the main blockers for python 3 in the last Ubuntu release [1]. Once more distros improve their python 3 support, things will get exponentially better for python 3. Continuous integration servers inflate numbers because they re-download things, and there is the CDN which makes all these numbers highly inaccurate. Lots of things have been ported since January, like pycurl, pyOpenSSL, bugzilla [2], etc. Because of the big pushes by Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Mozilla, and Gnome [3] communities amongst many others. Things have improved greatly in a few months. Distros, and apps like Sublime Text 3 moving to python 3, along with some of the major missing pieces will help uptake significantly. Almost all packages in Fedora come with python 3 packages now. But the key to increasing python 3 adoption is Apple, and python 3 on OS X. Many of the python packages that come with OS X are now ported to python 3 (Twisted, cups, pyobjc, etc) ... but who knows what they have planned? I guess we'll see June-ish. [0] http://alexgaynor.net/2014/jan/03/pypi-download-statistics/ http://alexgaynor.net/2014/jan/03/pypi-download-statistics/ [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python/FoundationsTPythonVersions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python/FoundationsTPythonVersions [2] https://fedorahosted.org/python-bugzilla/ https://fedorahosted.org/python-bugzilla/ [3] https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show//Initiatives/GnomeGoals/Python3Porting?action=show&redirect=GnomeGoals%2FPython3Porting https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show//Initiatives/GnomeGoals/P...
        kmike84 12y ago
        Only a subset of twisted is ported. For example, twisted trial runner is not ported, so you can't run tests using twisted test runner in Python 3.
        illumen 12y ago
        Yeah. Here's the issue for it "Port twisted.trial.runner to Python 3" twisted.trial https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/ticket/5965 https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/ticket/5965
  - sitkack 12y ago
    Please make a new extension `py3` and run both on the same VM. I know the str|unicode|buf issue is not easy, but you guys have lots of smart people.
    - the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
      Not possible due to how the interpreter and extension interface is structured.
      - sitkack 12y ago
        I have been racking my brain on how to remove all of the externs from the Python 2.7 VM, I think it just needs a big refactor to have a context object like Lua.
jmspring 12y ago
Poster mentions msft dropping support for ironpython (there were other languages too - ironruby, for instance) -- where "drop support" was to open source them. Just last year, msft gave $100k to the ipython project - http://ipython.org/microsoft-donation-2013.html http://ipython.org/microsoft-donation-2013.html It feels like the original commentor has a beef against msft to read company action into what is an individuals blog entry...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- rbanffy 12y ago
  If they open source and cease to support, I doubt anyone in the Microsoft ecosystem would pick it up.

by jhh 12y ago

This just seems like an ad hominem attack. Just because the author works at Microsoft does not mean that he is speaking for Microsoft or talking on their behalf.

illumen 12y ago

It's not just an ad hominem attack. I counter a number of his claims. The author provides NO evidence for any of the rubbish he's talking about.

the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
There are barely any users of Python 3. New versions of Python 3 are mostly only picked up by other Python 3 users. Python 2 is growing faster in downloads than Python 3 is by PyPI numbers. That is a problem.
- illumen 12y ago
  Do you have a link for these numbers?
  - the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
    I tweeted about this a while ago, I don't have the numbers at hand. Unfortunately to get those numbers you need to nudge the pypi maintainer as the data dump is too large to keep in a database without wasting money. As such if I would want to run the report again I would need to import multi gigabytes of logs again which takes time.
    - kaeawc 12y ago
      I'll take your word for it then ^_^
    - illumen 12y ago
      Currently python 3 packages ported are at about 10.9% according to pypi. This isn't including separate source downloads, so I guess the number would be higher by a few percentage points. There was a post by Alex Gaynor in January [0] about downloads for python 3 being at 2.4%. But that was before python 3.4 came out, and before some major libraries were finally ported like Twisted. Twisted not being ported was one of the main blockers for python 3 in the last Ubuntu release [1]. Once more distros improve their python 3 support, things will get exponentially better for python 3. Continuous integration servers inflate numbers because they re-download things, and there is the CDN which makes all these numbers highly inaccurate. Lots of things have been ported since January, like pycurl, pyOpenSSL, bugzilla [2], etc. Because of the big pushes by Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Mozilla, and Gnome [3] communities amongst many others. Things have improved greatly in a few months. Distros, and apps like Sublime Text 3 moving to python 3, along with some of the major missing pieces will help uptake significantly. Almost all packages in Fedora come with python 3 packages now. But the key to increasing python 3 adoption is Apple, and python 3 on OS X. Many of the python packages that come with OS X are now ported to python 3 (Twisted, cups, pyobjc, etc) ... but who knows what they have planned? I guess we'll see June-ish. [0] http://alexgaynor.net/2014/jan/03/pypi-download-statistics/ http://alexgaynor.net/2014/jan/03/pypi-download-statistics/ [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python/FoundationsTPythonVersions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python/FoundationsTPythonVersions [2] https://fedorahosted.org/python-bugzilla/ https://fedorahosted.org/python-bugzilla/ [3] https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show//Initiatives/GnomeGoals/Python3Porting?action=show&redirect=GnomeGoals%2FPython3Porting https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show//Initiatives/GnomeGoals/P...
      - kmike84 12y ago
        Only a subset of twisted is ported. For example, twisted trial runner is not ported, so you can't run tests using twisted test runner in Python 3.
        illumen 12y ago
        Yeah. Here's the issue for it "Port twisted.trial.runner to Python 3" twisted.trial https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/ticket/5965 https://twistedmatrix.com/trac/ticket/5965
- sitkack 12y ago
  Please make a new extension `py3` and run both on the same VM. I know the str|unicode|buf issue is not easy, but you guys have lots of smart people.
  - the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
    Not possible due to how the interpreter and extension interface is structured.
    - sitkack 12y ago
      I have been racking my brain on how to remove all of the externs from the Python 2.7 VM, I think it just needs a big refactor to have a context object like Lua.

jmspring 12y ago

Poster mentions msft dropping support for ironpython (there were other languages too - ironruby, for instance) -- where "drop support" was to open source them. Just last year, msft gave $100k to the ipython project - http://ipython.org/microsoft-donation-2013.html http://ipython.org/microsoft-donation-2013.html It feels like the original commentor has a beef against msft to read company action into what is an individuals blog entry...

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rbanffy 12y ago
If they open source and cease to support, I doubt anyone in the Microsoft ecosystem would pick it up.