5 ms·

End Mass Incarceration Now

160 points by alphakappa 12y ago

MBCook 12y ago
Good luck. Between easy fear-mongering ("Do you want criminals on the street?", "Representative Smith let that murder out, he could have prevented this", "Senator Bill is soft on crime!") and the huge number of jobs who depend on this nonsense (prisons, police, lawyers, bail bonds, half-way houses) I fear this will never be undone.
- arrrg 12y ago
  You need to do what many Western European nations have been doing for years now: build a huge commission of experts (as broad as possible with as many voices as possible, but all not too political, the more scientists – criminologists, sociologists, … – the better) and let them decide on it. That defers responsibility, but also prevents easy attacks. It shields politicians. Some find this disgusting and antithetical to democracy, but I’m actually quite ok with it. The politicians only set the broad guidelines and figure out how to pay for it. Of course there are controversies and of course it is occasionally very possible to score political points with “hang them higher” rhetorics, but not all that often. All’s not perfect, too, obviously, but at least it’s a bit better.
  - rosser 12y ago
    You may not have noticed, but modern America has a deep-seated disdain of "experts", particularly when it comes to public policy. This isn't accidental.
  - jpatokal 12y ago
    Doesn't that pretty much describe this, which was the trigger for the article? ...a two-year, 444-page study prepared by the research arm of the National Academy of Sciences at the request of the Justice Department and others.
    - davidcbc 12y ago
      Not at all. The study doesn't make any changes to the law.
argumentum 12y ago
Leaving aside victimless crimes for now (drugs, gambling prostitution), one problem with US sentencing is that it doesn't scale linearly. For instance, the sentence for petty larceny can be 6 months to a year. The penalty for 1st degree murder can be 30 years to life. I don't know anyone who would think Murder is merely 30 to 60 times worse than stealing underwear from Walmart. I'm not one of those who thinks we should adopt Nordic style sentences. I.e. Anders Breivik should never see the light of day again in my opinion. But sentences should be appropriate to the seriousness of what was done. Since the worst possible penalty is death/life in prison, which is ~30 to 60 years in most cases, lesser crimes such as theft or fraud should merit much smaller penalties. I.e. a day in jail, community service or payment of restitution.
- mistermann 12y ago
  I often wonder if there has been a legitimate study on "public humiliation" style community service, something like wearing an orange suit and picking garbage in a visible public location. That seems to me like something that would be quite effective in many (not all) situations.
  - nostromo 12y ago
    We have that for sex offenders. It's basically a scarlet letter. Your name, address, and photos are put online. Has it reduced those crimes? I have no idea.
    - mistermann 12y ago
      Even if it hadn't, I wouldn't consider it proof that it wouldn't for others. One demographic I could see it working well on is younger offenders - whereas some forms of punishment could be considered "cool", being publicly forced to do something and wearing an outfit not of your choosing while doing it, I can't see how that would be considered cool. Also, it could avoid them meeting the wrong people while in the joint which might lead them further down the wrong path. At the very least it would be cheaper than almost any other form of punishment, plus you'd get some garbage picked up.
lmg643 12y ago
at the federal level - drug offenses are about half of the population. of course, it's one thing to talk about legalizing marijuana - but i'm not sure what i'm supposed to think about early release for a guy who was importing heroin into chicago, so that kids who can't afford reformulated oxycontin have a way to get high. it's all part of the same "non-violent drug offense" coin. this is a pretty reflexive NYT column. once we get away from "non-violent drug offenders" i think the argument loses force. If you spend about 20 minutes reading about the details of the types of gnarly violent crimes the non-drug-related "mass incarcerated" commit, this sort of vague editorializing rings really hollow. people are capable of really heinous stuff.
- protomyth 12y ago
  I was always disappointed that users ended up in prison. It is an incredible waste of money and doesn't do any good. Smugglers and cookers can rot in prison for all the harm they have caused. Dealers are iffy depending on the circumstances and mandatory sentences for them is really unwarranted. Free the room up for sex offenders that molest kids. Why we let them out given all the studies about repeat offenses, I will never know[1]. I often think "Law and Order" politicians are out of step with what their "Law and Order" voters really want. 1) Also, any prosecutor that tries to get some 18 year old on a list for going out with his 16 year old girlfriend needs to be disbarred. Consensual is a family matter not a court matter.
  - vegardx 12y ago
    If you take a look at Louis Theroux documentary, "A Place for Paedophiles", you'll quickly see that the US don't just put sex offenders in prison, they keep them there (in facilities that are technically not a prison, because, well, lawyers) without judgement and without a known release date. Spoiler alert: They never get released.
  - jpatokal 12y ago
    Only problem is, most "sex offenders that molest kids" are 18-year-olds busted for bonking their 16-year-old girlfriends. Or, increasingly, taking a piss in the park, streaking a football game, or something equally daft. http://www.freerangekids.com/why-are-we-putting-kids-as-young-as-ten-on-the-sex-offender-registry-for-years/ http://www.freerangekids.com/why-are-we-putting-kids-as-youn...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
mynameishere 12y ago
even when there is no evidence that imprisoning more people has reduced crime by more than a small amount. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent_crime_rates_by_gender_1973-2003.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent_crime_rates_by_gen... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_th... The ny times editorial board is either living in a dream world, or is willfully lying and actually wants a return to the levels of property and violent crime from 40 years ago.
- jwoah12 12y ago
  Nice graphs, but where is the evidence linking those trends to higher incarceration rates?
- eruditely 12y ago
  Unleaded gasoline/Abortion, and for the part where violent crime is caused by a large minority there is still a massive population that is just incarcerated for no good reason and will not contribute. That population is huge. Save them.
  - DougWebb 12y ago
    Here's a Mother Jones article discussing the correlation between the rise and fall of leaded gasoline usage and the rise and fall of violent crime during the 20th century. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li...
- nodemaker 12y ago
  You need to read Freakonomics!
- JacobJans 12y ago
  For those interested, here is the section of the study that discusses "The Crime Prevention Effects of Incarceration." http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18613&page=130 http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18613&page=130
DigitalSea 12y ago
Mass incarceration is big business. This is what happens you privatise something, its sole goal is to make money and guess what makes a private prison money? More inmates. Then you have all of the other people/entities that benefit from a broken system; lawyers, police, judges, bail bonds. The justice system is inherently corrupt. And speaking of private prisons, most of them have occupancy guarantee clauses in their government contracts. I think the problem is even bigger than the New York Times thinks it is. It'll take more than a NYT article to fix the problem.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- resounding 12y ago
  Does anyone have insight into how this works in the UK? 9% of their prisoners are privately held, vs 3% in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison)? As in, are there systems or incentives in place to prevent UK prison companies from lobbying for harsher jail sentences?
rancar2 12y ago
There are two main external approaches that help improve outcomes for people affected by incarceration, top-down = Policy change & bottom-up = Grassroots. It is first worth noting that change is generally hard for everyone: governments, organizations, and individuals, because it's not typically not a simple singular event but a complex process: http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Womens_Health_Watch/2012/March/why-behavior-change-is-hard-and-why-you-should-keep-trying http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Womens_Hea... On the policy front, this is one of many approaches being taken, and this specific one is coming from the White House, My Brother's Keeper: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/02/27/fact-sheet-opportunity-all-president-obama-launches-my-brother-s-keeper- http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/02/27/fact-s... On the grassroots front, there are two organization that come to mind that are running programs showing promise in breaking the cycle of crime at different points: Roca & the Center for Employment. Here are their theories of change respectively: http://rocainc.org/what-we-do/the-solution/rocas-intervention-model-for-high-risk-young-people/ http://rocainc.org/what-we-do/the-solution/rocas-interventio... http://ceoworks.org/about/what-we-do/ceo-model-3/ http://ceoworks.org/about/what-we-do/ceo-model-3/ Both are taking part in scaling what works with Social Impact Bonds: http://www.ted.com/talks/toby_eccles_invest_in_social_change http://www.ted.com/talks/toby_eccles_invest_in_social_change http://www.socialfinanceus.org/what-we-do/select-current-engagements/social-finance-drives-landmark-new-york-state-deal http://www.socialfinanceus.org/what-we-do/select-current-eng... http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/tackling-mass-incarceration/?smid=pl-share http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/tackling-mas... Additional case studies from David Hunter: http://dekhconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/HunterConsulting_ROCA_CaseStudy.pdf http://dekhconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/HunterC... http://dekhconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/CenterForEmploymentOpp_CaseStudy.pdf http://dekhconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/CenterF...
mschuster91 12y ago
sorry, but what joke is this moderation? In half an hour, this article fell from #1 to #30, and I bet in half an hour it won't even be on #60.
pekk 12y ago
Does mass incarceration mean "prisons"? What sets the line between having prisons and having "mass incarceration"?
- Istof 12y ago
  I would say that there is no incarceration if there is no prisoners (it doesn't matter how many prisons)....
- gcd 12y ago
  Mass incarceration, in this case, is the trend in massive upward growth in prison population since 1980 (up 790% federally) and also the way in which we rely on incarceration to deal with social and economic problems - for example, globalization and technological change have drastically transformed the economy and forced poor colored communities into the underground economy. Instead of finding ways to integrate former factory workers into the new economy, we have cut welfare and started locking them up disproportionately. In short, the United States incarcerates more people per capita than any other country, and we do it because we aren't brave enough to deal with our problems more directly. That is mass incarceration.

160 points by alphakappa 12y ago

Good luck. Between easy fear-mongering ("Do you want criminals on the street?", "Representative Smith let that murder out, he could have prevented this", "Senator Bill is soft on crime!") and the huge number of jobs who depend on this nonsense (prisons, police, lawyers, bail bonds, half-way houses) I fear this will never be undone.

arrrg 12y ago
You need to do what many Western European nations have been doing for years now: build a huge commission of experts (as broad as possible with as many voices as possible, but all not too political, the more scientists – criminologists, sociologists, … – the better) and let them decide on it. That defers responsibility, but also prevents easy attacks. It shields politicians. Some find this disgusting and antithetical to democracy, but I’m actually quite ok with it. The politicians only set the broad guidelines and figure out how to pay for it. Of course there are controversies and of course it is occasionally very possible to score political points with “hang them higher” rhetorics, but not all that often. All’s not perfect, too, obviously, but at least it’s a bit better.
- rosser 12y ago
  You may not have noticed, but modern America has a deep-seated disdain of "experts", particularly when it comes to public policy. This isn't accidental.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  Doesn't that pretty much describe this, which was the trigger for the article? ...a two-year, 444-page study prepared by the research arm of the National Academy of Sciences at the request of the Justice Department and others.
  - davidcbc 12y ago
    Not at all. The study doesn't make any changes to the law.

argumentum 12y ago

Leaving aside victimless crimes for now (drugs, gambling prostitution), one problem with US sentencing is that it doesn't scale linearly. For instance, the sentence for petty larceny can be 6 months to a year. The penalty for 1st degree murder can be 30 years to life. I don't know anyone who would think Murder is merely 30 to 60 times worse than stealing underwear from Walmart. I'm not one of those who thinks we should adopt Nordic style sentences. I.e. Anders Breivik should never see the light of day again in my opinion. But sentences should be appropriate to the seriousness of what was done. Since the worst possible penalty is death/life in prison, which is ~30 to 60 years in most cases, lesser crimes such as theft or fraud should merit much smaller penalties. I.e. a day in jail, community service or payment of restitution.

mistermann 12y ago
I often wonder if there has been a legitimate study on "public humiliation" style community service, something like wearing an orange suit and picking garbage in a visible public location. That seems to me like something that would be quite effective in many (not all) situations.
- nostromo 12y ago
  We have that for sex offenders. It's basically a scarlet letter. Your name, address, and photos are put online. Has it reduced those crimes? I have no idea.
  - mistermann 12y ago
    Even if it hadn't, I wouldn't consider it proof that it wouldn't for others. One demographic I could see it working well on is younger offenders - whereas some forms of punishment could be considered "cool", being publicly forced to do something and wearing an outfit not of your choosing while doing it, I can't see how that would be considered cool. Also, it could avoid them meeting the wrong people while in the joint which might lead them further down the wrong path. At the very least it would be cheaper than almost any other form of punishment, plus you'd get some garbage picked up.

lmg643 12y ago

at the federal level - drug offenses are about half of the population. of course, it's one thing to talk about legalizing marijuana - but i'm not sure what i'm supposed to think about early release for a guy who was importing heroin into chicago, so that kids who can't afford reformulated oxycontin have a way to get high. it's all part of the same "non-violent drug offense" coin. this is a pretty reflexive NYT column. once we get away from "non-violent drug offenders" i think the argument loses force. If you spend about 20 minutes reading about the details of the types of gnarly violent crimes the non-drug-related "mass incarcerated" commit, this sort of vague editorializing rings really hollow. people are capable of really heinous stuff.

protomyth 12y ago
I was always disappointed that users ended up in prison. It is an incredible waste of money and doesn't do any good. Smugglers and cookers can rot in prison for all the harm they have caused. Dealers are iffy depending on the circumstances and mandatory sentences for them is really unwarranted. Free the room up for sex offenders that molest kids. Why we let them out given all the studies about repeat offenses, I will never know[1]. I often think "Law and Order" politicians are out of step with what their "Law and Order" voters really want. 1) Also, any prosecutor that tries to get some 18 year old on a list for going out with his 16 year old girlfriend needs to be disbarred. Consensual is a family matter not a court matter.
- vegardx 12y ago
  If you take a look at Louis Theroux documentary, "A Place for Paedophiles", you'll quickly see that the US don't just put sex offenders in prison, they keep them there (in facilities that are technically not a prison, because, well, lawyers) without judgement and without a known release date. Spoiler alert: They never get released.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  Only problem is, most "sex offenders that molest kids" are 18-year-olds busted for bonking their 16-year-old girlfriends. Or, increasingly, taking a piss in the park, streaking a football game, or something equally daft. http://www.freerangekids.com/why-are-we-putting-kids-as-young-as-ten-on-the-sex-offender-registry-for-years/ http://www.freerangekids.com/why-are-we-putting-kids-as-youn...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

mynameishere 12y ago

even when there is no evidence that imprisoning more people has reduced crime by more than a small amount. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent_crime_rates_by_gender_1973-2003.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent_crime_rates_by_gen... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_th... The ny times editorial board is either living in a dream world, or is willfully lying and actually wants a return to the levels of property and violent crime from 40 years ago.

jwoah12 12y ago
Nice graphs, but where is the evidence linking those trends to higher incarceration rates?
eruditely 12y ago
Unleaded gasoline/Abortion, and for the part where violent crime is caused by a large minority there is still a massive population that is just incarcerated for no good reason and will not contribute. That population is huge. Save them.
- DougWebb 12y ago
  Here's a Mother Jones article discussing the correlation between the rise and fall of leaded gasoline usage and the rise and fall of violent crime during the 20th century. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li...
nodemaker 12y ago
You need to read Freakonomics!
JacobJans 12y ago
For those interested, here is the section of the study that discusses "The Crime Prevention Effects of Incarceration." http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18613&page=130 http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18613&page=130

DigitalSea 12y ago

Mass incarceration is big business. This is what happens you privatise something, its sole goal is to make money and guess what makes a private prison money? More inmates. Then you have all of the other people/entities that benefit from a broken system; lawyers, police, judges, bail bonds. The justice system is inherently corrupt. And speaking of private prisons, most of them have occupancy guarantee clauses in their government contracts. I think the problem is even bigger than the New York Times thinks it is. It'll take more than a NYT article to fix the problem.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
resounding 12y ago
Does anyone have insight into how this works in the UK? 9% of their prisoners are privately held, vs 3% in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison)? As in, are there systems or incentives in place to prevent UK prison companies from lobbying for harsher jail sentences?

rancar2 12y ago

There are two main external approaches that help improve outcomes for people affected by incarceration, top-down = Policy change & bottom-up = Grassroots. It is first worth noting that change is generally hard for everyone: governments, organizations, and individuals, because it's not typically not a simple singular event but a complex process: http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Womens_Health_Watch/2012/March/why-behavior-change-is-hard-and-why-you-should-keep-trying http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Womens_Hea... On the policy front, this is one of many approaches being taken, and this specific one is coming from the White House, My Brother's Keeper: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/02/27/fact-sheet-opportunity-all-president-obama-launches-my-brother-s-keeper- http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/02/27/fact-s... On the grassroots front, there are two organization that come to mind that are running programs showing promise in breaking the cycle of crime at different points: Roca & the Center for Employment. Here are their theories of change respectively: http://rocainc.org/what-we-do/the-solution/rocas-intervention-model-for-high-risk-young-people/ http://rocainc.org/what-we-do/the-solution/rocas-interventio... http://ceoworks.org/about/what-we-do/ceo-model-3/ http://ceoworks.org/about/what-we-do/ceo-model-3/ Both are taking part in scaling what works with Social Impact Bonds: http://www.ted.com/talks/toby_eccles_invest_in_social_change http://www.ted.com/talks/toby_eccles_invest_in_social_change http://www.socialfinanceus.org/what-we-do/select-current-engagements/social-finance-drives-landmark-new-york-state-deal http://www.socialfinanceus.org/what-we-do/select-current-eng... http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/tackling-mass-incarceration/?smid=pl-share http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/tackling-mas... Additional case studies from David Hunter: http://dekhconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/HunterConsulting_ROCA_CaseStudy.pdf http://dekhconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/HunterC... http://dekhconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/CenterForEmploymentOpp_CaseStudy.pdf http://dekhconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/CenterF...

mschuster91 12y ago

sorry, but what joke is this moderation? In half an hour, this article fell from #1 to #30, and I bet in half an hour it won't even be on #60.

pekk 12y ago

Does mass incarceration mean "prisons"? What sets the line between having prisons and having "mass incarceration"?

Istof 12y ago
I would say that there is no incarceration if there is no prisoners (it doesn't matter how many prisons)....
gcd 12y ago
Mass incarceration, in this case, is the trend in massive upward growth in prison population since 1980 (up 790% federally) and also the way in which we rely on incarceration to deal with social and economic problems - for example, globalization and technological change have drastically transformed the economy and forced poor colored communities into the underground economy. Instead of finding ways to integrate former factory workers into the new economy, we have cut welfare and started locking them up disproportionately. In short, the United States incarcerates more people per capita than any other country, and we do it because we aren't brave enough to deal with our problems more directly. That is mass incarceration.