8 ms·

The Ripple Effects of Rising Student Debt

59 points by pcl 12y ago

withdavidli 12y ago
>student loan debt, which cannot be discharged via bankruptcy Apparently this isn't true anymore: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-06/you-can-get-student-loans-forgiven-in-bankruptcy-but-its-far-from-easy http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-06/you-can-get-... Personal Opinion: People lack knowledge of how heavy a burden dept really is. Many of my classmates decided to go to college around 17-18yo, myself included. Many of these classmates never worked a full-time job, top students probably not a part-time job either, because their parents want them to concentrate on school. Example: There was an article about an NYU student suing the school because it was too easy for her to sign $50,000 loans each year. Students take loan "tests" now before being able to sign for loans, but they don't really show what this really means. The tests show examples of what a 10 year loan may look like for payment, but really it should show the percentage of your pay it will cost per month. A $100k-$200k loan can easily take away 50%+/month of net income from a person making $40k-$60k per year (hopefully your income will rise substantially over time, but most likely your cost of living too, e.g. apartment/car/family). Debt is crippling, and if you search online for examples you'll see huge lists of comments of life stories. EDIT: Adding this link to display spending power over time for Plumbers vs. Doctors vs. Teachers: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-if-harvard-pays-off-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-... Summary of article: Given everyone lives to 100 years of age, the doctor only has $423 more per year than a plumber. I know this doesn't account for if everyone became a plumber right now.
- shaneofalltrad 12y ago
  I have no doubt that this is beneficial for big business to monopolize and the continued suppression of competition. It is too bad, and a sign why programmers are still beating these odds, because we can get away without an education and still find opportunities to beat the larger corporations. That looks to be changing though, as they learn to just gobble up all the ideas in buy-outs or patents.
- mercer 12y ago
  It's both fascinating and horrifying to me how high the loans in the USA are, and the fact that they're 'proper' loans. Here in The Netherlands, I know quite a few people who didn't get any student loans because they wanted to avoid any debt at all cost. And the Dutch student loans are not even 'proper' loans. If you don't have a job, for example, you pay a monthly minimum of around 50 euro (I think). Of course, the fact that this is possible here in itself is a nice thing, and times are changing here too. But if I had lived in the US, I might've never gone to college just to avoid such staggering debts.
  - withdavidli 12y ago
    >But if I had lived in the US, I might've never gone to college just to avoid such staggering debts. I think it would be hard to avoid college if you had lived here. We are told from a very early age that to be successful a person should go to college. Stats like a college graduate makes $1m-2m more over their lifetime than a person who didn't go to college. If DARE (Drug resistance program here in the states) ever taught me anything, it's that peer pressure works. If everyone else is doing it, you probably will too. Asch's experiment is a good example of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments I've known people from European countries that don't have to anything for college education, but their taxes are about 60% (they probably also have universal health care too). I think as long as we see the impact our tax money has, to provide for our basic needs, people are willing to pay these rates. But how governments spends money these days it's no wonder why no one wants to pay taxes.
    - mercer 12y ago
      Good point. Just the pressure from my parents would've probably been enough to push me to go to college anyways... Taxes here are pretty high, I guess, but realizing the costs in the US for health care and college makes me happy to live here. And from the brief time I spent in the US I didn't get the feeling that people in my 'class' (first-generation middle-class, white, educated) were living more comfortably than I was.
  - vanderZwan 12y ago
- bradleyjg 12y ago
  >>student loan debt, which cannot be discharged via bankruptcy >Apparently this isn't true anymore: That's not a fair summary of the linked article. Student loan debt still cannot be discharged using the ordinary rules of bankruptcy. You still need to prove undue hardship, and that still involves a tough, three part test. What happened was that one court allowed a single mother on food stamps to discharge some student loan debt -- a fact pattern that struck observers as unusual because those circumstances are relatively mild as compared to most successful cases.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
    > You still need to prove undue hardship, and that still involves a tough, three part test. This understates the difficulty. It is so nearly impossible to discharge student debt, that out of the many thousands who try it, only a handful manage the feat in any given year. It makes the news when this happens, it's that rare.
    - withdavidli 12y ago
      Looking at the sourced paper, can be downloaded here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1894445 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1894445 In 2007, 39% of the people who tried to discharge student loans were successful, 25% full discharge / 14% partial discharge. That is far from just a handful. The problem is, only .01% that could try to discharge students loans even tried. This may be because they didn't think it was even possible for them to win, advised against trying from counsel, or some other reason. The reason for why a person wouldn't try would be a good follow up study.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - withdavidli 12y ago
    It might not be ordinary procedures, but it's still possible. From word of mouth, all I have ever heard was that it was impossible to discharge, full or partial, student loans. The reason for linking the article was to provide evidence that some people are actually able to do it. Didn't mean to imply that everyone was capable of discharging student loans.
- 001sky 12y ago
  "You Can Get Student Loans Forgiven in Bankruptcy, but It’s Far From Easy" Link title...
gjjones 12y ago
This article strikes home on each point. I often consider the idea of teaching or starting a business, just to talk myself out of it cause of the risk against my student loans. I wish it was better conveyed when I was younger that my decision to go to a private school for a bachelor's would severely limit my options in life. Then again I'm still glad I went, even if 6 figure student loans was part of the result.
sitkack 12y ago
I would think that student loan debt would cause people to more aggressively negotiate salary increases, which will drive inflation. As professional labor becomes more expensive, off shoring of high level services will increase (to offset rising labor pressure).
- Omniusaspirer 12y ago
  I think the increased amount of college graduates has pretty much killed most negotiating power for those degrees which aren't regarded as in demand.
- gress 12y ago
  You can't aggressively negotiate anything if you have little power. Your student loan makes it harder for you to walk away from your job, and so it puts you at a disadvantage when negotiating.
- nightski 12y ago
  Usually when negotiating salary increases you need some sort of justification. Having a lot of debt isn't a very good one in my humble opinion. At least I have never seen it used successfully.
  - withdavidli 12y ago
    You're right, more debt is not a good reason for higher salary. Higher salary is a value proposition. If a candidate can prove they can add substanial value to a company they can demand a higher salary. This value proposition is very hard for new grads though. Most come out of school with little to no work experience, internships included. So it's hard for them to make this case. Not only can they usually not make the case, depending on the role, a new employee is not at optimum productivity until .5-1.5 years on the job. This is one of the main causes of employers always looking for that 1+ years of experience. The first year is most costly to the employer in training and risk the employee just taking a job somewhere else.
  - sitkack 12y ago
    They won't communicate to their employer that they need more money to pay down debt, but as a motivation for seeking higher salaries, jumping to new positions. With less debt people do what they want, when they are hungry to feed debt they will do things they otherwise wouldn't.
_broody 12y ago
Traditional education is reaching a breaking point, IMO. Tuition costs keep rising at a runaway pace, while the prospects delivered by a diploma are dwindling just as quickly, which is having a catastrophic effect not only on the lives of graduates but on the economy at large. Why is the education system so broken, at every level, when people are more fixated than ever on the importance of getting a degree? And how do we fix it?
malvosenior 12y ago
If you focus on becoming a good developer and start consulting IN HIGH SCHOOL, you will make bank. Forgo university altogether. I'm surprised more people don't see this path as at least a viable alternative if not THE way to go.
- mercer 12y ago
  Currently, I mostly agree, and I hope it lasts. However, I've found incredible value in the connections I made at university, which would've been much more difficult if I had not studied. Assuming you live in a country where you don't amass crippling debt, studying can still be very valuable, for a variety of reasons.
  - malvosenior 12y ago
    You can make even more valuable connections by leveraging your portfolio and reaching out to industry leaders on blogs/twitter/github/email. If you're good, pretty much anyone will take a coffee with you if you send them a polite email.
    - mercer 12y ago
      True, but that assumes you already have portfolio, you have the courage to approach 'industry leaders' (especially at a young age this can be daunting), and/or you have an idea of what you're looking for. If you're good at the right things, and are motivated, you can do fine with and without college. But college can make a lot of things easier, and more natural. Of course, it can also backfire and turn you into an undisciplined, alcoholic college-dropout. tl;dr: I'm not disagreeing with you, but I want to highlight that going to college is a perfectly legitimate option with many advantages (if one doesn't consider the debt).
      - malvosenior 12y ago
        I agree and certainly most people in our field do have degrees and have had positive university experiences. That said, if one does consider debt, is it still worth it?
timedoctor 12y ago
The idea of getting a loan to buy something that you can get for free (top universities put a lot of their course content online for free) is ridiculous. It only makes some sense for degrees where the university education is a 100% prerequisite to a high paying occupation (for example medicine). In general US consumers go into debt far too easily. For example it's common place to get a car loan, even though you can't afford a car. In my opinion this is dangerous to your financial health, much better to buy a lower cost car for example and avoid a loan. It only makes sense when the car is necessary for your job and in this case if you can't afford to pay cash for the car you should buy the lowest cost (relatively reliable) car possible.
- ekimekim 12y ago
  Your mistake here is assuming you're paying for education. You are not. You are paying for a certificate, saying that you passed certain tests and achieved certain marks. Education has nothing to do with it. And unfortunately, many jobs (not just doctors, but simple basic jobs) now require a degree. Sometimes they don't even care what degree.
oldspiceman 12y ago
Why don't US citizens enroll in European universities? It's way cheaper and of similar standard. Plus there's tons of programs offered in English. Including Engineering etc. Some reasons you should: - you're more attractive because you are foreign - you're less fearful of starting your own company because you're not in debt - alcohol is dirt cheap and you can legally drink - you can learn another language - you can explore all of europe on weekends because flights in europe are dirt cheap The reason people don't: they're scared of doing something different.
- ZanyProgrammer 12y ago
  The reason people don't: They wouldn't be allowed into most European countries as students. I'm pretty sure the immigration rules wouldn't allow it. And I'm pretty sure the cost of moving overseas is something that is out of the reach for all but the most affluent people.
  - pedrosorio 12y ago
    What is "the cost of moving overseas"?
  - daemin 12y ago
    I don't think the cost of moving overseas is actually that high, especially for a student. A plane ticket, a suitcase, and a laptop. I'm pretty sure those, accommodation, and food would be cheaper than studying at home at an expensive school.
crazy1van 12y ago
Perhaps this is abnormal, but I found it was totally possible to go to college in the US debt-free if you 1) Do well in high school, 2) Are willing to go to an in-state school, and 3) Don't mind working part time. Dozens of my friends in my senior highschool class went on to do just that. Good grades got them at least a partial in-state scholarship. Then some part time work (often just in the summer) made up the difference. The tuition was fairly low because they stayed in-state. This was in Florida and Georgia in the early 2000's. Have things really changed that much? Or maybe those states were just an anomaly. Frankly, I think in many ways college is overrated. However, getting a degree with minimal debt in a field with good job prospects still seems like a great option. However, spending big money to study at a "top" school in a field with average job prospects seems like a poor financial decision. It is a shame such a major financial decision is made when people are so young.
- pa5tabear 12y ago
  I just met with a local State Representative in Oregon and he was talking about Georgia as an example of a state with good higher education funding- he said any student with a B average or better would receive free college. Is this true? Or is the funding situation good? He thinks Oregon is not good for higher education funding.
- mgibbs63 12y ago
  The HOPE Scholarship (the Georgia in-state scholarship program) still exists, but since the early 2000's, it has become considerably harder to qualify for. It used to be as easy as graduating from a public high school in Georgia with a 3.0 GPA, and would cover all your tuition, up to 15 credit hours per semester. Once you were in college, I don't believe there were even any GPA requirements. Today, I think you need a 3.7 GPA to qualify. EDIT: Looks like you still just need a 3.0, but there are additional 'academic rigor' requirements on the high school courses you take. It was a spectacular bargain (and still is, but to fewer students), and paid for my degree at Georgia Tech, which is a pretty good school. The system is funded by lottery revenue, though, which brings up some thorny issues. The majority of people who buy lottery tickets are working class, but the majority of HOPE recipients are upper-middle class - effectively a bizarre reverse-welfare program. In most other states, similar programs don't exist, and even students who are willing to stay in-state and work while they go to school end up with some student debt.

59 points by pcl 12y ago

>student loan debt, which cannot be discharged via bankruptcy Apparently this isn't true anymore: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-06/you-can-get-student-loans-forgiven-in-bankruptcy-but-its-far-from-easy http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-06/you-can-get-... Personal Opinion: People lack knowledge of how heavy a burden dept really is. Many of my classmates decided to go to college around 17-18yo, myself included. Many of these classmates never worked a full-time job, top students probably not a part-time job either, because their parents want them to concentrate on school. Example: There was an article about an NYU student suing the school because it was too easy for her to sign $50,000 loans each year. Students take loan "tests" now before being able to sign for loans, but they don't really show what this really means. The tests show examples of what a 10 year loan may look like for payment, but really it should show the percentage of your pay it will cost per month. A $100k-$200k loan can easily take away 50%+/month of net income from a person making $40k-$60k per year (hopefully your income will rise substantially over time, but most likely your cost of living too, e.g. apartment/car/family). Debt is crippling, and if you search online for examples you'll see huge lists of comments of life stories. EDIT: Adding this link to display spending power over time for Plumbers vs. Doctors vs. Teachers: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-if-harvard-pays-off-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-... Summary of article: Given everyone lives to 100 years of age, the doctor only has $423 more per year than a plumber. I know this doesn't account for if everyone became a plumber right now.

shaneofalltrad 12y ago
I have no doubt that this is beneficial for big business to monopolize and the continued suppression of competition. It is too bad, and a sign why programmers are still beating these odds, because we can get away without an education and still find opportunities to beat the larger corporations. That looks to be changing though, as they learn to just gobble up all the ideas in buy-outs or patents.
mercer 12y ago
It's both fascinating and horrifying to me how high the loans in the USA are, and the fact that they're 'proper' loans. Here in The Netherlands, I know quite a few people who didn't get any student loans because they wanted to avoid any debt at all cost. And the Dutch student loans are not even 'proper' loans. If you don't have a job, for example, you pay a monthly minimum of around 50 euro (I think). Of course, the fact that this is possible here in itself is a nice thing, and times are changing here too. But if I had lived in the US, I might've never gone to college just to avoid such staggering debts.
- withdavidli 12y ago
  >But if I had lived in the US, I might've never gone to college just to avoid such staggering debts. I think it would be hard to avoid college if you had lived here. We are told from a very early age that to be successful a person should go to college. Stats like a college graduate makes $1m-2m more over their lifetime than a person who didn't go to college. If DARE (Drug resistance program here in the states) ever taught me anything, it's that peer pressure works. If everyone else is doing it, you probably will too. Asch's experiment is a good example of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments I've known people from European countries that don't have to anything for college education, but their taxes are about 60% (they probably also have universal health care too). I think as long as we see the impact our tax money has, to provide for our basic needs, people are willing to pay these rates. But how governments spends money these days it's no wonder why no one wants to pay taxes.
  - mercer 12y ago
    Good point. Just the pressure from my parents would've probably been enough to push me to go to college anyways... Taxes here are pretty high, I guess, but realizing the costs in the US for health care and college makes me happy to live here. And from the brief time I spent in the US I didn't get the feeling that people in my 'class' (first-generation middle-class, white, educated) were living more comfortably than I was.
- vanderZwan 12y ago
bradleyjg 12y ago
>>student loan debt, which cannot be discharged via bankruptcy >Apparently this isn't true anymore: That's not a fair summary of the linked article. Student loan debt still cannot be discharged using the ordinary rules of bankruptcy. You still need to prove undue hardship, and that still involves a tough, three part test. What happened was that one court allowed a single mother on food stamps to discharge some student loan debt -- a fact pattern that struck observers as unusual because those circumstances are relatively mild as compared to most successful cases.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
  > You still need to prove undue hardship, and that still involves a tough, three part test. This understates the difficulty. It is so nearly impossible to discharge student debt, that out of the many thousands who try it, only a handful manage the feat in any given year. It makes the news when this happens, it's that rare.
  - withdavidli 12y ago
    Looking at the sourced paper, can be downloaded here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1894445 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1894445 In 2007, 39% of the people who tried to discharge student loans were successful, 25% full discharge / 14% partial discharge. That is far from just a handful. The problem is, only .01% that could try to discharge students loans even tried. This may be because they didn't think it was even possible for them to win, advised against trying from counsel, or some other reason. The reason for why a person wouldn't try would be a good follow up study.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- withdavidli 12y ago
  It might not be ordinary procedures, but it's still possible. From word of mouth, all I have ever heard was that it was impossible to discharge, full or partial, student loans. The reason for linking the article was to provide evidence that some people are actually able to do it. Didn't mean to imply that everyone was capable of discharging student loans.
001sky 12y ago
"You Can Get Student Loans Forgiven in Bankruptcy, but It’s Far From Easy" Link title...

gjjones 12y ago

This article strikes home on each point. I often consider the idea of teaching or starting a business, just to talk myself out of it cause of the risk against my student loans. I wish it was better conveyed when I was younger that my decision to go to a private school for a bachelor's would severely limit my options in life. Then again I'm still glad I went, even if 6 figure student loans was part of the result.

sitkack 12y ago

I would think that student loan debt would cause people to more aggressively negotiate salary increases, which will drive inflation. As professional labor becomes more expensive, off shoring of high level services will increase (to offset rising labor pressure).

Omniusaspirer 12y ago
I think the increased amount of college graduates has pretty much killed most negotiating power for those degrees which aren't regarded as in demand.
gress 12y ago
You can't aggressively negotiate anything if you have little power. Your student loan makes it harder for you to walk away from your job, and so it puts you at a disadvantage when negotiating.
nightski 12y ago
Usually when negotiating salary increases you need some sort of justification. Having a lot of debt isn't a very good one in my humble opinion. At least I have never seen it used successfully.
- withdavidli 12y ago
  You're right, more debt is not a good reason for higher salary. Higher salary is a value proposition. If a candidate can prove they can add substanial value to a company they can demand a higher salary. This value proposition is very hard for new grads though. Most come out of school with little to no work experience, internships included. So it's hard for them to make this case. Not only can they usually not make the case, depending on the role, a new employee is not at optimum productivity until .5-1.5 years on the job. This is one of the main causes of employers always looking for that 1+ years of experience. The first year is most costly to the employer in training and risk the employee just taking a job somewhere else.
- sitkack 12y ago
  They won't communicate to their employer that they need more money to pay down debt, but as a motivation for seeking higher salaries, jumping to new positions. With less debt people do what they want, when they are hungry to feed debt they will do things they otherwise wouldn't.

_broody 12y ago

Traditional education is reaching a breaking point, IMO. Tuition costs keep rising at a runaway pace, while the prospects delivered by a diploma are dwindling just as quickly, which is having a catastrophic effect not only on the lives of graduates but on the economy at large. Why is the education system so broken, at every level, when people are more fixated than ever on the importance of getting a degree? And how do we fix it?

malvosenior 12y ago

If you focus on becoming a good developer and start consulting IN HIGH SCHOOL, you will make bank. Forgo university altogether. I'm surprised more people don't see this path as at least a viable alternative if not THE way to go.

mercer 12y ago
Currently, I mostly agree, and I hope it lasts. However, I've found incredible value in the connections I made at university, which would've been much more difficult if I had not studied. Assuming you live in a country where you don't amass crippling debt, studying can still be very valuable, for a variety of reasons.
- malvosenior 12y ago
  You can make even more valuable connections by leveraging your portfolio and reaching out to industry leaders on blogs/twitter/github/email. If you're good, pretty much anyone will take a coffee with you if you send them a polite email.
  - mercer 12y ago
    True, but that assumes you already have portfolio, you have the courage to approach 'industry leaders' (especially at a young age this can be daunting), and/or you have an idea of what you're looking for. If you're good at the right things, and are motivated, you can do fine with and without college. But college can make a lot of things easier, and more natural. Of course, it can also backfire and turn you into an undisciplined, alcoholic college-dropout. tl;dr: I'm not disagreeing with you, but I want to highlight that going to college is a perfectly legitimate option with many advantages (if one doesn't consider the debt).
    - malvosenior 12y ago
      I agree and certainly most people in our field do have degrees and have had positive university experiences. That said, if one does consider debt, is it still worth it?

timedoctor 12y ago

The idea of getting a loan to buy something that you can get for free (top universities put a lot of their course content online for free) is ridiculous. It only makes some sense for degrees where the university education is a 100% prerequisite to a high paying occupation (for example medicine). In general US consumers go into debt far too easily. For example it's common place to get a car loan, even though you can't afford a car. In my opinion this is dangerous to your financial health, much better to buy a lower cost car for example and avoid a loan. It only makes sense when the car is necessary for your job and in this case if you can't afford to pay cash for the car you should buy the lowest cost (relatively reliable) car possible.

ekimekim 12y ago
Your mistake here is assuming you're paying for education. You are not. You are paying for a certificate, saying that you passed certain tests and achieved certain marks. Education has nothing to do with it. And unfortunately, many jobs (not just doctors, but simple basic jobs) now require a degree. Sometimes they don't even care what degree.

oldspiceman 12y ago

Why don't US citizens enroll in European universities? It's way cheaper and of similar standard. Plus there's tons of programs offered in English. Including Engineering etc. Some reasons you should: - you're more attractive because you are foreign - you're less fearful of starting your own company because you're not in debt - alcohol is dirt cheap and you can legally drink - you can learn another language - you can explore all of europe on weekends because flights in europe are dirt cheap The reason people don't: they're scared of doing something different.

ZanyProgrammer 12y ago
The reason people don't: They wouldn't be allowed into most European countries as students. I'm pretty sure the immigration rules wouldn't allow it. And I'm pretty sure the cost of moving overseas is something that is out of the reach for all but the most affluent people.
- pedrosorio 12y ago
  What is "the cost of moving overseas"?
- daemin 12y ago
  I don't think the cost of moving overseas is actually that high, especially for a student. A plane ticket, a suitcase, and a laptop. I'm pretty sure those, accommodation, and food would be cheaper than studying at home at an expensive school.

crazy1van 12y ago

Perhaps this is abnormal, but I found it was totally possible to go to college in the US debt-free if you 1) Do well in high school, 2) Are willing to go to an in-state school, and 3) Don't mind working part time. Dozens of my friends in my senior highschool class went on to do just that. Good grades got them at least a partial in-state scholarship. Then some part time work (often just in the summer) made up the difference. The tuition was fairly low because they stayed in-state. This was in Florida and Georgia in the early 2000's. Have things really changed that much? Or maybe those states were just an anomaly. Frankly, I think in many ways college is overrated. However, getting a degree with minimal debt in a field with good job prospects still seems like a great option. However, spending big money to study at a "top" school in a field with average job prospects seems like a poor financial decision. It is a shame such a major financial decision is made when people are so young.

pa5tabear 12y ago
I just met with a local State Representative in Oregon and he was talking about Georgia as an example of a state with good higher education funding- he said any student with a B average or better would receive free college. Is this true? Or is the funding situation good? He thinks Oregon is not good for higher education funding.
mgibbs63 12y ago
The HOPE Scholarship (the Georgia in-state scholarship program) still exists, but since the early 2000's, it has become considerably harder to qualify for. It used to be as easy as graduating from a public high school in Georgia with a 3.0 GPA, and would cover all your tuition, up to 15 credit hours per semester. Once you were in college, I don't believe there were even any GPA requirements. Today, I think you need a 3.7 GPA to qualify. EDIT: Looks like you still just need a 3.0, but there are additional 'academic rigor' requirements on the high school courses you take. It was a spectacular bargain (and still is, but to fewer students), and paid for my degree at Georgia Tech, which is a pretty good school. The system is funded by lottery revenue, though, which brings up some thorny issues. The majority of people who buy lottery tickets are working class, but the majority of HOPE recipients are upper-middle class - effectively a bizarre reverse-welfare program. In most other states, similar programs don't exist, and even students who are willing to stay in-state and work while they go to school end up with some student debt.