10 ms·

I think this shows how dedicated the Surface Pro team at Microsoft is to making a rock solid product. Yes there's issues with branding, Windows 8 tries to be t

I think this shows how dedicated the Surface Pro team at Microsoft is to making a rock solid product. Yes there's issues with branding, Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once, and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years; but I think the total focus on making the experience as good as possible combined with Microsoft's budget and a little time will yield very impressive results. I certainly hope so. I love the vision of the Surface Pro with a good dock. A single device that can be docked with monitors and a real keyboard/mouse, used as a laptop or carried as a tablet would make an awesome machine. It seems they are there in principle right now but need some time to get it polished enough to be usable for most. Too soon to count Microsoft out regardless.

justin66 12y ago
> Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8. edit: it is amusing to me that THIS is the first comment I've made that some clique decided to go medieval on.
- edias 12y ago
  Windows 8 really isn't that bad. I avoided it like the plague when it was first released mainly due to the lack of start menu but between the 8.1 update and classic shell maturing a bit, I basically see it as a faster Windows 7 (especially start up on an SSD). I have some minor complaints but so long as I never have to enter the metro UI I've been pretty happy with it overall.
  - justin66 12y ago
    I see what you're saying but there's no "never show me anything Metro, ever" checkbox, and for me that's a problem. I've got a Lenovo touchpad and the user experience over the months has involved learning not to accidentally make all the myriad gestures that cause Windows 8 to do something stupid. I keep discovering new ones, I think in part due to the 8.1 update. Perhaps that's not why, it's hard to say. This is all a purely negative process for me: trying to keep the PC from doing something I don't want it to do. Apparently driver writers and Microsoft don't want to give you an official "make this trackpad not act stupid" option, either, last I checked.
    - edias 12y ago
      How much time have you tried customizing it to your liking? I couldn't stand Windows 8 before some serious tweaking, which don't get me wrong is a massive design flaw, but if you don't mind using some 3rd party software you can basically achieve the "never show me anything metro, ever" checkbox. Definitely check out classic shell[1] if you haven't yet, I wouldn't be using Win8 if it didn't exist. Also you'll find plenty of guides to turning off charm bars/ gestures/hot corners and whatever other UI trickery Windows 8 brought us. [1]http://www.classicshell.net/ http://www.classicshell.net/
      - justin66 12y ago
        The funny thing is, I actually don't have as huge a problem with the shell or lack of classic menus as some people do. I can just pile shortcuts onto the desktop like all my install programs want to do anyway. It really is the touchpad for me that's the huge annoyance, and dealing with the UI to make wifi work properly, which I guess is a Metro gripe. The last time I checked, the touchpad thing required registry tweaking and positive results were not at all guaranteed. Whoever decided that the touchpad, of all things, should sorta-kinda try to incorporate the same gestures as the touchscreen (maybe? I have a touchscreen but barely use it) was probably guilty of huffing gasoline.
    - lelandriordan 12y ago
      Thats Lenovo's fault not Microsoft's, drivers haven't been a problem in ages. I have both a Macbook Retina and desktop gaming PC. I hand built the PC and all of the drivers automatically downloaded and installed. The only thing I ever did after that was update AMD Catalyst for my 280x's, but that was my choice; it worked fine before I updated. You probably updated to 8.1 before Lenovo updated its drivers or bought an old touchpad that was actually meant for Windows 7 and is no longer supported by them. Touchpad's are also a niche product use case, 99% of users use mice, laptop track-pads or touchscreens. Thus touchpads will never be a priority for driver development teams. As for the learning curve, have you ever seen a lifetime Windows user try someone else's Mac? Hot Corners drive them absolutely crazy, or they will accidentally pinch to zoom or they will scroll by mistake and not realize whats happening. There is always a learning curve, even in the most user friendly operating systems like iOS. And what actual computer do you have? The problem is people use a $400 Dell and then compare it to a $2000 Retina or $1200 Air. The Surface Pro 3 is a premium Apple like device, and what do you know, early reviews from places like The Verge say its the best possible Windows 8 experience. My Mac and my PC cost about the same, and I love each of them for different reasons. Each OS has its own pros and cons. As for metro, what are you doing that causes Metro to show up? On my desktop, I have almost never seen it since 8.1 came out. Once you enable boot to desktop and pin your most widely used programs to the taskbar, the only time it ever shows up is when you are looking for a rarely used program. Even then it is actually pretty good when you think of it as nothing more than an advanced start menu replacement. And in the next update MS is making an option to do just that: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2138443/rejoice-the-start-menu-is-coming-back-to-windows.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2138443/rejoice-the-start-men.... The real problem is Windows doesn't automatically detect what hardware is connected and change the settings to ones like these automatically.
- MartinCron 12y ago
  Mocking Windows 8 like that is like shooting fish in a barrel, it's easy and satisfying but doesn't really move forward the discourse in a meaningful way.
  - justin66 12y ago
    I wasn't mocking Windows 8, I was attacking the comment. Trivializing the massive failure for Microsoft - and for a corporate world still largely dependent on their products - represented by Windows 8 really doesn't serve anyone.
- hetman 12y ago
  No need to get upset if you make a comment that doesn't actually contribute anything to the discussion.
- TheRealDunkirk 12y ago
  I've never seen the Microsoft astroturf so vigorous. The same thing happened when this topic came up on /r/apple. I mean, it's /r/apple, and the pro-Microsoft position was the VAST majority of the comments and upvoting. It makes me think that this iteration is on the chopping block. That, if they can't start really getting some traction with them, they're going to have to pivot somehow. Of course, it could be that there's a lot of love out there for the Surface, even on an Apple fanboi forum, because it's just that good, but, somehow, I doubt it. Also, yeah, retaliatory downvoting. Yay.
rasz_pl 12y ago
...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said product? and still not good enough. Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is lagging. Someone needs to get shot.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Notice he didn't say it WAS a rock solid product, he said they were dedicated to making it one. It isn't surprising it has issues; the Surface line is a little less than 2 years old. The iPhone wasn't polished from day one; it took them a few years too. I don't think it was until the end of the 3G, somewhere around the iPhone 4, where the iPhone was generally accepted as a well-polished product. Which, I might add, was a timespan of ~3 years.
- x3sphere 12y ago
  Not surprising. The MBP Retina suffers from such lag as well, unless you go for the top of the line model with the dedicated graphics card. 2160X1440 res is too much for these integrated chips to handle.
  - LeafyGreenbriar 12y ago
    In my experience that was only true of the Ivy Bridge models. I've used both the 13 & 15 inch Haswell Pros, and neither seems to have any appreciable GUI lag, with the possible exception of scrolling/resizing sites with very complex layouts in Chrome.
  - dangrossman 12y ago
    If the higher end model uses one of the i7's with Intel's Iris graphics (still an integrated GPU), it'll have no problem. I have one powering my 2560x1440 laptop connected to another external monitor, and it drives both screens in native-res games just fine. It's more capable than the discrete ATI Radeon was in my older i5 laptop. It's also an Ultrabook (0.6"), so the same chip shouldn't have any size/thermal issues with being stuffed in an SP.
  - saratogacx 12y ago
    OSX has some really odd lag issues with the UI and responsiveness. I'm running my lenovo win Win8 dual monitor on the 1377x768 & 2560x1440 external monitor and I don't see any UI lag. This is on an older Intel HD3000 integrated chip. My 13" MBP from the same time lags even if I'm using just the built in screen.
nivla 12y ago
>and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years I think they know exactly where things are going to in the next five years, yet they will try their best to arrive late. Remember the MS Courier? I believe the future is going to be a hybrid of mobile and desktop. Its already happening with the web and other OSes especially Win8 and Ubuntu (Ubuntu mobile that turns into a full fledged desktop when docked in). So technically MS is on the right track, they are just a bit too early - 70's Groovy in the mid 60's. The biggest gripe I have with them is that sometimes they make something very good and then mess up something very little in a very noticeable way. Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature. I have the Surface Pro I and its perfect for my needs except when I am out of wifi or need directions. Just put in a GPS and 4G already. I have waited for 2 iterations now.
- MBCook 12y ago
  > Remember the MS Courier? It was never a product, it was a concept. This, by the way, is why it's a bad idea to show everyone your concepts. They will hold them against you for years.
  - nivla 12y ago
    I was talking about MS have the right idea but failing to go though with it. MS Courier concept was introduced well before the iPad, suggesting someone there believed that it was going to be the future but they ended up killing it before the board din't agree to it. Similarly, they were already working on a voice assistant called "Tell Me" even before Siri was introduced by Apple [1]. A lot of people think MS doesn't come up with great ideas but its quite the opposite. They just fail to execute it in a timely manner or require a few iterations to get it perfect. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6pWs46GY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6pWs46GY8
    - ghshephard 12y ago
      Ideas are cheap, execution is everything. You said it yourself, "MS Courier" was a concept - it wasn't actually a product. Your average gifted 13 year old can come up with a lot of great concepts, the challenge is in actually creating them. Even Apple is running into this - Siri requires a rock solid Wireless connection, without it, Siri no longer works, which kind of defeats the purpose of a mobile voice assistant.
codeulike 12y ago
A single USB3 port can be used to dock to keyboard, mouse, monitor and ethernet - thats what I do with my Surface Pro 1. Just needed a few cheap hubs and adapters. A proper dock would be nice but its not strictly necessary.
- TTPrograms 12y ago
  Plus power. That means two cables! That's literally double the number of things I should need to plug in. I hate to admit that this actually bothers me. It's true of all laptops, though.
  - shanselman 12y ago
    The new Lenovos have a "one dock" plug that does USB, video, and power on one plug. It's lovely.
    - TTPrograms 12y ago
      Yet another reason for my next laptop to be a Lenovo...
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - Too 12y ago
      Last time I saw a USB dock with video the video performance was really poor, max 30hz at 720p etc... Do you have any experience of how these work?
      - jrockway 12y ago
        I'm guessing the dock is Thunderbolt, since Intel CPUs support it directly, and it does video, USB, and power.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
_broody 12y ago
It's already yielded impressive results for me. I bought a SP1 at a big discount, hoping to use it only for digital artwork. I didn't have my hopes too high, as I was aware of all the criticism it had drawn (though honestly, the tech press of today is utterly ridiculous. There's a couple of holdouts of excellent coverage, but for the most part it's comprised of a frothing band of gadget fanboys). I didn't expect to end up loving the SP1 so much. I'll never be able to go back to a tablet without split-screen multitasking, or to a small laptop without touchscreen and stylus input. Everything else feels incredibly rudimentary in comparison. The first-generation SP has a good deal of flaws, but none of them have been dealbreakers for me. This is the first device I've truly loved so thoroughly, ever. It feels like it's truly pushing the envelope.
- silverbax88 12y ago
  the blunt truth is Windows 8 is excellent for a mobile/tablet OS, and absolutely horrible as a desktop OS. So Microsoft needs to just get it's act together and put out/fix/resolve the Desktop OS and focus the tiled OS on mobile and THEN they might be able to gain ground.

justin66 12y ago

> Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8. edit: it is amusing to me that THIS is the first comment I've made that some clique decided to go medieval on.

edias 12y ago
Windows 8 really isn't that bad. I avoided it like the plague when it was first released mainly due to the lack of start menu but between the 8.1 update and classic shell maturing a bit, I basically see it as a faster Windows 7 (especially start up on an SSD). I have some minor complaints but so long as I never have to enter the metro UI I've been pretty happy with it overall.
- justin66 12y ago
  I see what you're saying but there's no "never show me anything Metro, ever" checkbox, and for me that's a problem. I've got a Lenovo touchpad and the user experience over the months has involved learning not to accidentally make all the myriad gestures that cause Windows 8 to do something stupid. I keep discovering new ones, I think in part due to the 8.1 update. Perhaps that's not why, it's hard to say. This is all a purely negative process for me: trying to keep the PC from doing something I don't want it to do. Apparently driver writers and Microsoft don't want to give you an official "make this trackpad not act stupid" option, either, last I checked.
  - edias 12y ago
    How much time have you tried customizing it to your liking? I couldn't stand Windows 8 before some serious tweaking, which don't get me wrong is a massive design flaw, but if you don't mind using some 3rd party software you can basically achieve the "never show me anything metro, ever" checkbox. Definitely check out classic shell[1] if you haven't yet, I wouldn't be using Win8 if it didn't exist. Also you'll find plenty of guides to turning off charm bars/ gestures/hot corners and whatever other UI trickery Windows 8 brought us. [1]http://www.classicshell.net/ http://www.classicshell.net/
    - justin66 12y ago
      The funny thing is, I actually don't have as huge a problem with the shell or lack of classic menus as some people do. I can just pile shortcuts onto the desktop like all my install programs want to do anyway. It really is the touchpad for me that's the huge annoyance, and dealing with the UI to make wifi work properly, which I guess is a Metro gripe. The last time I checked, the touchpad thing required registry tweaking and positive results were not at all guaranteed. Whoever decided that the touchpad, of all things, should sorta-kinda try to incorporate the same gestures as the touchscreen (maybe? I have a touchscreen but barely use it) was probably guilty of huffing gasoline.
  - lelandriordan 12y ago
    Thats Lenovo's fault not Microsoft's, drivers haven't been a problem in ages. I have both a Macbook Retina and desktop gaming PC. I hand built the PC and all of the drivers automatically downloaded and installed. The only thing I ever did after that was update AMD Catalyst for my 280x's, but that was my choice; it worked fine before I updated. You probably updated to 8.1 before Lenovo updated its drivers or bought an old touchpad that was actually meant for Windows 7 and is no longer supported by them. Touchpad's are also a niche product use case, 99% of users use mice, laptop track-pads or touchscreens. Thus touchpads will never be a priority for driver development teams. As for the learning curve, have you ever seen a lifetime Windows user try someone else's Mac? Hot Corners drive them absolutely crazy, or they will accidentally pinch to zoom or they will scroll by mistake and not realize whats happening. There is always a learning curve, even in the most user friendly operating systems like iOS. And what actual computer do you have? The problem is people use a $400 Dell and then compare it to a $2000 Retina or $1200 Air. The Surface Pro 3 is a premium Apple like device, and what do you know, early reviews from places like The Verge say its the best possible Windows 8 experience. My Mac and my PC cost about the same, and I love each of them for different reasons. Each OS has its own pros and cons. As for metro, what are you doing that causes Metro to show up? On my desktop, I have almost never seen it since 8.1 came out. Once you enable boot to desktop and pin your most widely used programs to the taskbar, the only time it ever shows up is when you are looking for a rarely used program. Even then it is actually pretty good when you think of it as nothing more than an advanced start menu replacement. And in the next update MS is making an option to do just that: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2138443/rejoice-the-start-menu-is-coming-back-to-windows.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2138443/rejoice-the-start-men.... The real problem is Windows doesn't automatically detect what hardware is connected and change the settings to ones like these automatically.
MartinCron 12y ago
Mocking Windows 8 like that is like shooting fish in a barrel, it's easy and satisfying but doesn't really move forward the discourse in a meaningful way.
- justin66 12y ago
  I wasn't mocking Windows 8, I was attacking the comment. Trivializing the massive failure for Microsoft - and for a corporate world still largely dependent on their products - represented by Windows 8 really doesn't serve anyone.
hetman 12y ago
No need to get upset if you make a comment that doesn't actually contribute anything to the discussion.
TheRealDunkirk 12y ago
I've never seen the Microsoft astroturf so vigorous. The same thing happened when this topic came up on /r/apple. I mean, it's /r/apple, and the pro-Microsoft position was the VAST majority of the comments and upvoting. It makes me think that this iteration is on the chopping block. That, if they can't start really getting some traction with them, they're going to have to pivot somehow. Of course, it could be that there's a lot of love out there for the Surface, even on an Apple fanboi forum, because it's just that good, but, somehow, I doubt it. Also, yeah, retaliatory downvoting. Yay.

rasz_pl 12y ago

...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said product? and still not good enough. Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is lagging. Someone needs to get shot.

sliverstorm 12y ago
Notice he didn't say it WAS a rock solid product, he said they were dedicated to making it one. It isn't surprising it has issues; the Surface line is a little less than 2 years old. The iPhone wasn't polished from day one; it took them a few years too. I don't think it was until the end of the 3G, somewhere around the iPhone 4, where the iPhone was generally accepted as a well-polished product. Which, I might add, was a timespan of ~3 years.
x3sphere 12y ago
Not surprising. The MBP Retina suffers from such lag as well, unless you go for the top of the line model with the dedicated graphics card. 2160X1440 res is too much for these integrated chips to handle.
- LeafyGreenbriar 12y ago
  In my experience that was only true of the Ivy Bridge models. I've used both the 13 & 15 inch Haswell Pros, and neither seems to have any appreciable GUI lag, with the possible exception of scrolling/resizing sites with very complex layouts in Chrome.
- dangrossman 12y ago
  If the higher end model uses one of the i7's with Intel's Iris graphics (still an integrated GPU), it'll have no problem. I have one powering my 2560x1440 laptop connected to another external monitor, and it drives both screens in native-res games just fine. It's more capable than the discrete ATI Radeon was in my older i5 laptop. It's also an Ultrabook (0.6"), so the same chip shouldn't have any size/thermal issues with being stuffed in an SP.
- saratogacx 12y ago
  OSX has some really odd lag issues with the UI and responsiveness. I'm running my lenovo win Win8 dual monitor on the 1377x768 & 2560x1440 external monitor and I don't see any UI lag. This is on an older Intel HD3000 integrated chip. My 13" MBP from the same time lags even if I'm using just the built in screen.

nivla 12y ago

>and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years I think they know exactly where things are going to in the next five years, yet they will try their best to arrive late. Remember the MS Courier? I believe the future is going to be a hybrid of mobile and desktop. Its already happening with the web and other OSes especially Win8 and Ubuntu (Ubuntu mobile that turns into a full fledged desktop when docked in). So technically MS is on the right track, they are just a bit too early - 70's Groovy in the mid 60's. The biggest gripe I have with them is that sometimes they make something very good and then mess up something very little in a very noticeable way. Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature. I have the Surface Pro I and its perfect for my needs except when I am out of wifi or need directions. Just put in a GPS and 4G already. I have waited for 2 iterations now.

MBCook 12y ago
> Remember the MS Courier? It was never a product, it was a concept. This, by the way, is why it's a bad idea to show everyone your concepts. They will hold them against you for years.
- nivla 12y ago
  I was talking about MS have the right idea but failing to go though with it. MS Courier concept was introduced well before the iPad, suggesting someone there believed that it was going to be the future but they ended up killing it before the board din't agree to it. Similarly, they were already working on a voice assistant called "Tell Me" even before Siri was introduced by Apple [1]. A lot of people think MS doesn't come up with great ideas but its quite the opposite. They just fail to execute it in a timely manner or require a few iterations to get it perfect. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6pWs46GY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6pWs46GY8
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    Ideas are cheap, execution is everything. You said it yourself, "MS Courier" was a concept - it wasn't actually a product. Your average gifted 13 year old can come up with a lot of great concepts, the challenge is in actually creating them. Even Apple is running into this - Siri requires a rock solid Wireless connection, without it, Siri no longer works, which kind of defeats the purpose of a mobile voice assistant.

codeulike 12y ago

A single USB3 port can be used to dock to keyboard, mouse, monitor and ethernet - thats what I do with my Surface Pro 1. Just needed a few cheap hubs and adapters. A proper dock would be nice but its not strictly necessary.

TTPrograms 12y ago
Plus power. That means two cables! That's literally double the number of things I should need to plug in. I hate to admit that this actually bothers me. It's true of all laptops, though.
- shanselman 12y ago
  The new Lenovos have a "one dock" plug that does USB, video, and power on one plug. It's lovely.
  - TTPrograms 12y ago
    Yet another reason for my next laptop to be a Lenovo...
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - Too 12y ago
    Last time I saw a USB dock with video the video performance was really poor, max 30hz at 720p etc... Do you have any experience of how these work?
    - jrockway 12y ago
      I'm guessing the dock is Thunderbolt, since Intel CPUs support it directly, and it does video, USB, and power.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

_broody 12y ago

It's already yielded impressive results for me. I bought a SP1 at a big discount, hoping to use it only for digital artwork. I didn't have my hopes too high, as I was aware of all the criticism it had drawn (though honestly, the tech press of today is utterly ridiculous. There's a couple of holdouts of excellent coverage, but for the most part it's comprised of a frothing band of gadget fanboys). I didn't expect to end up loving the SP1 so much. I'll never be able to go back to a tablet without split-screen multitasking, or to a small laptop without touchscreen and stylus input. Everything else feels incredibly rudimentary in comparison. The first-generation SP has a good deal of flaws, but none of them have been dealbreakers for me. This is the first device I've truly loved so thoroughly, ever. It feels like it's truly pushing the envelope.

silverbax88 12y ago
the blunt truth is Windows 8 is excellent for a mobile/tablet OS, and absolutely horrible as a desktop OS. So Microsoft needs to just get it's act together and put out/fix/resolve the Desktop OS and focus the tiled OS on mobile and THEN they might be able to gain ground.