8 ms·

Don't customers also receive a benefit by having a lower utility bill?

nostromo 12y ago
It depends on which Nest feature we're talking about. The consumer clearly benefits from not air conditioning an empty home. But, the article conflates this with "demand response" -- which is more about time-shifting your electrical usage to avoid peak times than it is about reducing your energy usage. The meter will read the same, but it's a huge benefit to the utilities. A simple way to fix this: price energy more expensively during peak times.
- joezydeco 12y ago
  Which some markets are doing. In Chicago you can opt into a program where you pay real-time pricing for electricity. This price can swing from 0.0c/kWh during overnight summer hours when peaker plants need someone to burn off wattage, and I've seen it go over $1.00/kWh during heat waves or when the south is having a freezing snap and everyone is running their heat pumps down there. Standard users pay about 7.5c/kWh. While the Nest doesn't connect to this pricing, ComEd also offers an optional breaker box (connected via cellular radio) to cycle power to your A/C compressor for short periods of time when the price exceeds a certain level (i.e peak summer demand). So this kind of automatic control exists without needing the Nest infrastructure in place. In the meantime, I've saved about 15% off my standard bill with a little bit of diligent dumb-thermostat programming. I'm planning a more intelligent system of my own that can watch pricing, house occupancy, and weather forecasts to try and beat that statistic.
  - TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
    So you can end up getting charged ~13x the price if you opt-in? No wonder it's not particularly popular.
    - erichurkman 12y ago
      It works really well if you have a programmable thermostat (Nest or otherwise). Particularly if you are at work during the high afternoon temperatures. If you're at home frequently during those periods, or in an area where it does not cool off until 9 pm, it probably does not make sense. A high insulation rating helps, too.
      - jamesaguilar 12y ago
        > If you're at home frequently during those periods, or in an area where it does not cool off until 9 pm, it probably does not make sense. Although this is something you have control of as well. For the right amount of money, I can arrange to be out with my friends when it is hottest, then come home later. :)
    - joezydeco 12y ago
      Like I said, I've saved money with the program. If you're not able or motivated to monitor your usage and the current price then yeah, it's not going to work. This is where a more intelligent system than the Nest could be beneficial. I'm not for the power company modulating your use but if you had a system that cooperated locally with your habits I think there's a lot of potential. Nest is 50% there.
      - ironchef 12y ago
        I'm on RRTP too. I've saved > 25% using it in the summer. In the summer (for example), I'll crank it down to mid to low sixties overnight (it's pretty cheap) and give it one final kick down to high fifties / low sixties just shy of 6 am. Then set it for 76 or so for most of the day (If it's pretty hot and the temp has drifted up I may do a mid day cooling for a short bit)....then kick things down again at 8 pm or so. You can follow the pricing here: https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/?date=20140522 https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/?date=20140522 (that's today) or predicted next day: https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/predicted-prices/ https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/predicted-prices/
        12y ago
- TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
  Correction. A simple way to fix this: price energy more cheaply during off times.
  - joezydeco 12y ago
    Unfortunately this isn't how the power generation market works. If you've hit 100% capacity there's nothing you can do except start blacking out neighborhoods. The solutions to date are to a)fire up "peaker" plants which are hellishly expensive to operate but keep the lights on or b)buy surplus power from other markets on the open market. And that price will not be the standard price.
    - lutorm 12y ago
      The power generation market absolutely works like this. The problem is that the power consumption market does not. Since most customers only pay a fixed average price/kWh instead of a time of use tariff, so people have no incentive to conserve power since they're still paying the same price even though the spot price has gone up by an order of magnitude. If the consumers paid the spot price and realized their air conditioner now cost something like $10/hr to run, I bet you demand would come down. The problem is that this would completely screw over those that can't adjust their demand in the process.
      - Retric 12y ago
        The marginal price may go up but 90+% of load is still being generated by non peaking power plants.
- paulyg 12y ago
  Your meter will read lower though. Nest gets signal to implement demand response. Nest sends signal to all participants to up temp setpoint by 3deg. Homeowner uses less electricity. Meter spins slower.

It depends on which Nest feature we're talking about. The consumer clearly benefits from not air conditioning an empty home. But, the article conflates this with "demand response" -- which is more about time-shifting your electrical usage to avoid peak times than it is about reducing your energy usage. The meter will read the same, but it's a huge benefit to the utilities. A simple way to fix this: price energy more expensively during peak times.

joezydeco 12y ago
Which some markets are doing. In Chicago you can opt into a program where you pay real-time pricing for electricity. This price can swing from 0.0c/kWh during overnight summer hours when peaker plants need someone to burn off wattage, and I've seen it go over $1.00/kWh during heat waves or when the south is having a freezing snap and everyone is running their heat pumps down there. Standard users pay about 7.5c/kWh. While the Nest doesn't connect to this pricing, ComEd also offers an optional breaker box (connected via cellular radio) to cycle power to your A/C compressor for short periods of time when the price exceeds a certain level (i.e peak summer demand). So this kind of automatic control exists without needing the Nest infrastructure in place. In the meantime, I've saved about 15% off my standard bill with a little bit of diligent dumb-thermostat programming. I'm planning a more intelligent system of my own that can watch pricing, house occupancy, and weather forecasts to try and beat that statistic.
- TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
  So you can end up getting charged ~13x the price if you opt-in? No wonder it's not particularly popular.
  - erichurkman 12y ago
    It works really well if you have a programmable thermostat (Nest or otherwise). Particularly if you are at work during the high afternoon temperatures. If you're at home frequently during those periods, or in an area where it does not cool off until 9 pm, it probably does not make sense. A high insulation rating helps, too.
    - jamesaguilar 12y ago
      > If you're at home frequently during those periods, or in an area where it does not cool off until 9 pm, it probably does not make sense. Although this is something you have control of as well. For the right amount of money, I can arrange to be out with my friends when it is hottest, then come home later. :)
  - joezydeco 12y ago
    Like I said, I've saved money with the program. If you're not able or motivated to monitor your usage and the current price then yeah, it's not going to work. This is where a more intelligent system than the Nest could be beneficial. I'm not for the power company modulating your use but if you had a system that cooperated locally with your habits I think there's a lot of potential. Nest is 50% there.
    - ironchef 12y ago
      I'm on RRTP too. I've saved > 25% using it in the summer. In the summer (for example), I'll crank it down to mid to low sixties overnight (it's pretty cheap) and give it one final kick down to high fifties / low sixties just shy of 6 am. Then set it for 76 or so for most of the day (If it's pretty hot and the temp has drifted up I may do a mid day cooling for a short bit)....then kick things down again at 8 pm or so. You can follow the pricing here: https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/?date=20140522 https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/?date=20140522 (that's today) or predicted next day: https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/predicted-prices/ https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/predicted-prices/
      - 12y ago
TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
Correction. A simple way to fix this: price energy more cheaply during off times.
- joezydeco 12y ago
  Unfortunately this isn't how the power generation market works. If you've hit 100% capacity there's nothing you can do except start blacking out neighborhoods. The solutions to date are to a)fire up "peaker" plants which are hellishly expensive to operate but keep the lights on or b)buy surplus power from other markets on the open market. And that price will not be the standard price.
  - lutorm 12y ago
    The power generation market absolutely works like this. The problem is that the power consumption market does not. Since most customers only pay a fixed average price/kWh instead of a time of use tariff, so people have no incentive to conserve power since they're still paying the same price even though the spot price has gone up by an order of magnitude. If the consumers paid the spot price and realized their air conditioner now cost something like $10/hr to run, I bet you demand would come down. The problem is that this would completely screw over those that can't adjust their demand in the process.
    - Retric 12y ago
      The marginal price may go up but 90+% of load is still being generated by non peaking power plants.
paulyg 12y ago
Your meter will read lower though. Nest gets signal to implement demand response. Nest sends signal to all participants to up temp setpoint by 3deg. Homeowner uses less electricity. Meter spins slower.