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What a shortsighted move. Who would want to work for Zenimax after this? Whatever Zenimax gets out of this lawsuit will be overshadowed by the goodwill they'v

What a shortsighted move. Who would want to work for Zenimax after this? Whatever Zenimax gets out of this lawsuit will be overshadowed by the goodwill they've lost. EDIT: Who would want to work someplace that will aggressively assert rights over your personal projects? Let's assume Carmack happened to work on VR within a Zenimax office. We're talking about someone who created Armadillo Aerospace. If Carmack felt like developing VR outside of Zenimax offices, he obviously could have. So it must be true that Zenimax didn't actually help VR in any substantial way. Carmack's VR development just happened to take place within a Zenimax building. And now they're going after him for it, while playing it off like VR wouldn't have existed without Zenimax's contributions. EDIT2: What convinced me was a thought experiment: imagine Zenimax without Carmack. Now think of all the ways that our imaginary entity could possibly contribute to the development of VR. At best, our entity provided a building for Carmack to pursue his personal interests in (a "mad scientist lab," as the Complaint calls it). Maybe some marketing, but who would deny that the hype would have rolled in regardless of whatever Zenimax did to help it along? Two seconds looking through a Rift is enough to transform anyone into an evangelist. The VR ball began rolling due to the efforts of Carmack, not Zenimax. So, let's say you're Zenimax. You have Carmack working for you, working on all kinds of cool projects; whatever interests him. Choose your adventure: - Stand to benefit by the halo effect of having a living legend on your payroll; a legend who gets the entire gamedev industry interested in projects happening at your company. Attract top talent by virtue of the buzz, and a creative's natural desire to be a part of cool projects. Your new top talent goes on to create many millions of dollars of value for your company. - Try to assert control over whatever Carmack makes. Make it abundantly clear that no personal projects will be tolerated by any employee on Zenimax's payroll. Show the world that no one can work for you unless their sole ambition is to be a Zenimax employee. Convince every young hotshot college grad that it's a bad idea to go work for you. Lose whatever momentum you would have gained by attracting top talent.

Lagged2Death 12y ago
Who would want to work for Zenimax after this? ZeniMax has the rights to an awfully big stable of awfully important gaming properties. I think a lot of people - even people who don't like anything about this nasty little scrap - will be willing to hold their noses.
cdmckay 12y ago
I'm sure they'll be able to comfort themselves with the million of dollars they're going to get.
DerpDerpDerp 12y ago
I would. I don't understand why you're so surprised that a company sued after they were turned down for a settlement from a company they gave a bunch of key technology to under an agreement. I don't find that behavior to be unreasonable at all.
- Demiurge 12y ago
  Let's be frank, there are at at least 3 degrees of separation between what Oculus 'got' and ZeniMax. It was completely based on John Carmacs enthusiasm for VR, and the time that he invested in getting Doom3 to work with it, among his other experiments, that there is any relationship between Oculus and ZeniMax. He also pushed for Doom3 to be open sourced, and many other things. ZeniMax can not control him, but unfortunately they do control a company that Carmac also had enthusiasm for, and all the IP John Carmac created when ZeniMax wasn't even around. Their behavior is not unreasonable, but it is only possible because a prolific developer was not concerned about nuances of copyright law while collaborating with multiple companies. That kind of behavior does cost goodwill, and although you might not mind working for ZeniMax, SCO, Oracle, I think the original point stands, and a few people might mind.
  - DerpDerpDerp 12y ago
    > Their behavior is not unreasonable, but it is only possible because a prolific developer was not concerned about nuances of copyright law while collaborating with multiple companies. I expect that Facebook is going to tell Oculus to suck it up, pay a settlement, and everyone will go home and move on with their lives. Carmac worked on Oculus at id's office, during work hours, using id resources. Oculus promoted their product using id games. At every step, id (and hence ZeniMax) provided technical assistance. Oculus didn't want to pay for it by reaching a deal as they moved forward to commercializing, so now they're going to reach one as part of a settlement resolving a lawsuit. Really, this doesn't strike me as a particularly bad case, and reading their lawsuit filing, not inappropriate for them to file a lawsuit after failing to have a settlement reached with Oculus to pay for the technology. (As an aside, there is other IP than just copyright involved.)
mhurron 12y ago
The same people who won't buy EA games. Oh - http://www.zacks.com/commentary/32628/bull-of-the-day-electronic-arts-ea http://www.zacks.com/commentary/32628/bull-of-the-day-electr... "The stock has been an all-star performer over the past two years, as EA has appreciated by nearly 150% in the time frame." Gamers don't care.
- adventured 12y ago
  I agree that gamers mostly don't care, but referencing the stock doesn't support your argument. First of all, most stocks have appreciated significantly, the stock market is at all time highs. Second, EA sales do not correlate to the stock price increase, nor do profits (you can wait for the stock crash accordingly). Their PE ratio is basically between off the charts and negative. Their sales haven't increased in six years: they did $4 billion in sales in fiscal 2008, they did $3.8 billion in fiscal 2013. Why is it up so much? Because investors are frequently irrational, sentiment tends to go to extremes.
benatkin 12y ago
What about Apple? Are they hurting? Why should it be different for a company like Zenimax than it is for Apple?
jsmthrowaway 12y ago
Why assume when you can read plaintiff's description of events in the suit[0], which directly challenges your assumptions and contains some extremely damning evidence? [0]: http://www.scribd.com/doc/225491347/ZeniMax-v-Oculus-Complaint-As-Filed-21-May-2014 http://www.scribd.com/doc/225491347/ZeniMax-v-Oculus-Complai...
aaronem 12y ago
> If Carmack felt like developing VR outside of Zenimax offices, he obviously could have. So it must be true that Zenimax didn't actually help VR in any substantial way. How does that follow? (Standard disclaimer: I know nothing of the merits of the case, the background, &c., ad naus., and thus speak not thereto. I'm just curious how parent sees the logic working here.)
anigbrowl 12y ago
Remind me not to sign any contracts with you, because you're just too cool for that sort of thing. If Carmack felt like developing VR outside of Zenimax offices, he obviously could have. So it must be true that Zenimax didn't actually help VR in any substantial way. Carmack's VR development just happened to take place within a Zenimax building. He had a contractual exemption for Armadillo. His development 'just happened' to take place inside a Zenimax building, ie the workplace where he was employed. If you're on someone's payroll and working in their building, I think it's sort of reasonable for them to expect that you're working to advance their interests rather than your own. Your new top talent goes on to create many millions of dollars of value for your company. Or so you think, until you wake up one morning and discover that he's left for Facebook along with the high-profile new technology you thought you was going to bring you many millions of dollars in game revenue. Sorry, but it sounds like since you hero-worship John Carmack he shouldn't be required to abide by any sort of contractual agreements he signs up to, which strikes me as a bit immature.
- cookiecaper 12y ago
  While I haven't read the complaint and am not informed on the specifics of this case, I agree that under the parent commenter's logic, there'd be no commercial benefit to paying for R&D. If you're going to pump the cash into R&D, you have to be able to net something from it. R&D-type guys are going to have many varied interests, and it's certainly advisable that they create a hard, impermeable separation between things that they want their employer to be able to claim, and things they don't (i.e., don't even think about projects that you don't want your employer to claim while you're on their clock, in their building, or using their mail servers). It may be that Carmack was used to there not really being a major distinction between what he owned and what id owned, and got caught off-guard by ZeniMax's insistence that this was a ZeniMax-only kind of thing now.

Lagged2Death 12y ago

Who would want to work for Zenimax after this? ZeniMax has the rights to an awfully big stable of awfully important gaming properties. I think a lot of people - even people who don't like anything about this nasty little scrap - will be willing to hold their noses.

cdmckay 12y ago

I'm sure they'll be able to comfort themselves with the million of dollars they're going to get.

DerpDerpDerp 12y ago

I would. I don't understand why you're so surprised that a company sued after they were turned down for a settlement from a company they gave a bunch of key technology to under an agreement. I don't find that behavior to be unreasonable at all.

Demiurge 12y ago
Let's be frank, there are at at least 3 degrees of separation between what Oculus 'got' and ZeniMax. It was completely based on John Carmacs enthusiasm for VR, and the time that he invested in getting Doom3 to work with it, among his other experiments, that there is any relationship between Oculus and ZeniMax. He also pushed for Doom3 to be open sourced, and many other things. ZeniMax can not control him, but unfortunately they do control a company that Carmac also had enthusiasm for, and all the IP John Carmac created when ZeniMax wasn't even around. Their behavior is not unreasonable, but it is only possible because a prolific developer was not concerned about nuances of copyright law while collaborating with multiple companies. That kind of behavior does cost goodwill, and although you might not mind working for ZeniMax, SCO, Oracle, I think the original point stands, and a few people might mind.
- DerpDerpDerp 12y ago
  > Their behavior is not unreasonable, but it is only possible because a prolific developer was not concerned about nuances of copyright law while collaborating with multiple companies. I expect that Facebook is going to tell Oculus to suck it up, pay a settlement, and everyone will go home and move on with their lives. Carmac worked on Oculus at id's office, during work hours, using id resources. Oculus promoted their product using id games. At every step, id (and hence ZeniMax) provided technical assistance. Oculus didn't want to pay for it by reaching a deal as they moved forward to commercializing, so now they're going to reach one as part of a settlement resolving a lawsuit. Really, this doesn't strike me as a particularly bad case, and reading their lawsuit filing, not inappropriate for them to file a lawsuit after failing to have a settlement reached with Oculus to pay for the technology. (As an aside, there is other IP than just copyright involved.)

mhurron 12y ago

The same people who won't buy EA games. Oh - http://www.zacks.com/commentary/32628/bull-of-the-day-electronic-arts-ea http://www.zacks.com/commentary/32628/bull-of-the-day-electr... "The stock has been an all-star performer over the past two years, as EA has appreciated by nearly 150% in the time frame." Gamers don't care.

adventured 12y ago
I agree that gamers mostly don't care, but referencing the stock doesn't support your argument. First of all, most stocks have appreciated significantly, the stock market is at all time highs. Second, EA sales do not correlate to the stock price increase, nor do profits (you can wait for the stock crash accordingly). Their PE ratio is basically between off the charts and negative. Their sales haven't increased in six years: they did $4 billion in sales in fiscal 2008, they did $3.8 billion in fiscal 2013. Why is it up so much? Because investors are frequently irrational, sentiment tends to go to extremes.

benatkin 12y ago

What about Apple? Are they hurting? Why should it be different for a company like Zenimax than it is for Apple?

jsmthrowaway 12y ago

Why assume when you can read plaintiff's description of events in the suit[0], which directly challenges your assumptions and contains some extremely damning evidence? [0]: http://www.scribd.com/doc/225491347/ZeniMax-v-Oculus-Complaint-As-Filed-21-May-2014 http://www.scribd.com/doc/225491347/ZeniMax-v-Oculus-Complai...

aaronem 12y ago

> If Carmack felt like developing VR outside of Zenimax offices, he obviously could have. So it must be true that Zenimax didn't actually help VR in any substantial way. How does that follow? (Standard disclaimer: I know nothing of the merits of the case, the background, &c., ad naus., and thus speak not thereto. I'm just curious how parent sees the logic working here.)

anigbrowl 12y ago

Remind me not to sign any contracts with you, because you're just too cool for that sort of thing. If Carmack felt like developing VR outside of Zenimax offices, he obviously could have. So it must be true that Zenimax didn't actually help VR in any substantial way. Carmack's VR development just happened to take place within a Zenimax building. He had a contractual exemption for Armadillo. His development 'just happened' to take place inside a Zenimax building, ie the workplace where he was employed. If you're on someone's payroll and working in their building, I think it's sort of reasonable for them to expect that you're working to advance their interests rather than your own. Your new top talent goes on to create many millions of dollars of value for your company. Or so you think, until you wake up one morning and discover that he's left for Facebook along with the high-profile new technology you thought you was going to bring you many millions of dollars in game revenue. Sorry, but it sounds like since you hero-worship John Carmack he shouldn't be required to abide by any sort of contractual agreements he signs up to, which strikes me as a bit immature.

cookiecaper 12y ago
While I haven't read the complaint and am not informed on the specifics of this case, I agree that under the parent commenter's logic, there'd be no commercial benefit to paying for R&D. If you're going to pump the cash into R&D, you have to be able to net something from it. R&D-type guys are going to have many varied interests, and it's certainly advisable that they create a hard, impermeable separation between things that they want their employer to be able to claim, and things they don't (i.e., don't even think about projects that you don't want your employer to claim while you're on their clock, in their building, or using their mail servers). It may be that Carmack was used to there not really being a major distinction between what he owned and what id owned, and got caught off-guard by ZeniMax's insistence that this was a ZeniMax-only kind of thing now.