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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_p... http://updates.jalopnik.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_p... http://updates.jalopnik.com/post/34669789863/more-than-a-dozen-fisker-karma-hybrids-caught-fire-and http://updates.jalopnik.com/post/34669789863/more-than-a-doz... http://www.businessinsider.com/february-1st-toronto-tesla-fire-2014-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/february-1st-toronto-tesla-fi... Need more? Lithium is one of the most expensive battery classes too... do I really need a source on this one. A Tesla battery costs 20k for a reason. Weight is important for cars, but most cars already have lead-acid batteries. Furthermore batteries aren't a large portion of vehicle weight. The reason lithium is used for electric cars is energy density. This is not a problem for hybrids.

coryrc 12y ago
None of those exploded. If you claim exploded, prove it! Energy density is still useful for hybrids, especially PHEV. Earlier Prii use a very small lead-acid as 12V battery, but have a very large and heavy NiMH as the main pack. Doubling that weight is not a useful thing. Telsa battery costs $20k because it goes >200 miles. What cost and weight would these batteries have in that same circumstance? (oh, it doesn't matter because they're only useful for hybrids, so why bring up Tesla?)
- nicholas73 12y ago
  "More Than A Dozen Fisker Karma Hybrids Caught Fire And Exploded In New Jersey Port After Sandy" If those photos don't count as an explosion to you, I don't know what does.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    Looks like fires to me, not explosions. I honestly do not see what you think is so obviously an "explosion" in those pictures.
    - scott_karana 12y ago
      What could possibly start aflame in an electric car, but the batteries? (I'm aware that other parts would be flammable.)
      - mikeash 12y ago
        It seems clear that the batteries caught fire. The question is whether they exploded.
        emn13 12y ago
        Though there's certainly a difference, I'm not sure it's all that important here. A fire followed by a mild explosion isn't necessarily that much more dangerous or harmful than a fast fire. You don't really want either.
      - lttlrck 12y ago
        Any part of the electrical system could catch fire due to a fault. Edit: not any part, but electrical systems do start fires.
- mikeash 12y ago
  Most Priuses still use NiMH (all except the plugin one). In mine, it's around 120lbs, out of about 3200lbs total vehicle weight. Doubling the weight of the battery wouldn't make that much of a difference. Plugin hybrids and pure electrics need much larger batteries, so it certainly matters there, but for plain hybrids it's not such a big deal.
nitid_name 12y ago
I was on a team that built a lead acid hybrid race car in college. I seem to recall the batteries were by far the heaviest component of the car; at ~40lb a piece, they were more than half the gross vehicle weight (pilot and ethanol included). Assuming Pb-C is roughly comparable to Pb-Acid in mass density (since most of the weight is presumably in the Pb), then you'd need ~twice as much to match it in energy density. I'm wondering how massive the battery packs will end up being on such a vehicle. >The reason lithium is used for electric cars is energy density. This is not a problem for hybrids. I don't understand what leads you to conclude this.
- nicholas73 12y ago
  The average US car is 4,000 lbs and has one battery. Your race car is not comparable. You are correct about the energy density, but the battery is used for regen breaking, engine start/stop, hotel loads, and in the case of Kia an electric supercharger. Essentially it provides smooth-over power, but the bulk will still come from gasoline. Lithium is used in electric cars where they are the primary energy source. Lead carbon is only appropriate in micro to mild hybrids.

coryrc 12y ago

None of those exploded. If you claim exploded, prove it! Energy density is still useful for hybrids, especially PHEV. Earlier Prii use a very small lead-acid as 12V battery, but have a very large and heavy NiMH as the main pack. Doubling that weight is not a useful thing. Telsa battery costs $20k because it goes >200 miles. What cost and weight would these batteries have in that same circumstance? (oh, it doesn't matter because they're only useful for hybrids, so why bring up Tesla?)

nicholas73 12y ago
"More Than A Dozen Fisker Karma Hybrids Caught Fire And Exploded In New Jersey Port After Sandy" If those photos don't count as an explosion to you, I don't know what does.
- mikeash 12y ago
  Looks like fires to me, not explosions. I honestly do not see what you think is so obviously an "explosion" in those pictures.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    What could possibly start aflame in an electric car, but the batteries? (I'm aware that other parts would be flammable.)
    - mikeash 12y ago
      It seems clear that the batteries caught fire. The question is whether they exploded.
      - emn13 12y ago
        Though there's certainly a difference, I'm not sure it's all that important here. A fire followed by a mild explosion isn't necessarily that much more dangerous or harmful than a fast fire. You don't really want either.
    - lttlrck 12y ago
      Any part of the electrical system could catch fire due to a fault. Edit: not any part, but electrical systems do start fires.
mikeash 12y ago
Most Priuses still use NiMH (all except the plugin one). In mine, it's around 120lbs, out of about 3200lbs total vehicle weight. Doubling the weight of the battery wouldn't make that much of a difference. Plugin hybrids and pure electrics need much larger batteries, so it certainly matters there, but for plain hybrids it's not such a big deal.

nitid_name 12y ago

I was on a team that built a lead acid hybrid race car in college. I seem to recall the batteries were by far the heaviest component of the car; at ~40lb a piece, they were more than half the gross vehicle weight (pilot and ethanol included). Assuming Pb-C is roughly comparable to Pb-Acid in mass density (since most of the weight is presumably in the Pb), then you'd need ~twice as much to match it in energy density. I'm wondering how massive the battery packs will end up being on such a vehicle. >The reason lithium is used for electric cars is energy density. This is not a problem for hybrids. I don't understand what leads you to conclude this.

nicholas73 12y ago
The average US car is 4,000 lbs and has one battery. Your race car is not comparable. You are correct about the energy density, but the battery is used for regen breaking, engine start/stop, hotel loads, and in the case of Kia an electric supercharger. Essentially it provides smooth-over power, but the bulk will still come from gasoline. Lithium is used in electric cars where they are the primary energy source. Lead carbon is only appropriate in micro to mild hybrids.