6 ms·

Kia rejects Li-ion for Pb-carbon in hybrid car

39 points by nicholas73 12y ago

protomyth 12y ago
The reason from the article: “The development team selected lead-carbon batteries over lithium-ion equivalents as they require no active cooling, are more easily recyclable at the end of the vehicle’s life, and can function much more efficiently in sub-zero temperatures.” Is this line actually true: "An often-overlooked feature of most Li-ion cells is that they cannot and must not be charged below 0°C, and have poor output current below 0°C."
- TD-Linux 12y ago
  Yes, virtually all batteries perform poorly at low temperatures. IIRC, the Tesla can actually heat its batteries to increase performance. Most consumer-grade lithium ion batteries have a charging window between 0-45C, totally unacceptable for a car. 0-60C is more common for automotive batteries, but still isn't that large of a window.
  - bri3d 12y ago
    Here's a diagram of the Tesla Model S's heat/cooling system. It's taken from a leaked picture of the engineering tools built into the infotainment system, which is a scary concept once you think about it: http://i.imgur.com/TOUXlWM.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TOUXlWM.jpg The car needs a substantial amount of both active heating and cooling in order to enable the batteries to both charge at all below 0C and to charge and discharge extremely rapidly when attached to a Supercharger or under heavy acceleration.
- coryrc 12y ago
  Lead cells have worse cold-temperature performance than lithium; at least, all cells that EV conversions have used (golf cart/AGM/VRLA versus LiFePO4/LiCo).
  - nicholas73 12y ago
    Please provide a source on this, as this is directly opposite to what the article states, and dis-proven by millions of cars starting in freezing weather.
    - coryrc 12y ago
      A PR puff piece posted by a stock booster claims new invention is the greatest thing ever with no drawbacks? I'm so surprised. Every year when winter comes, there's a huge spike in starter battery sales. I'm not sure what you mean by "dis-proven". Start here: http://www.evdl.org/ http://www.evdl.org/
    - meepmorp 12y ago
      > dis-proven by millions of cars starting in freezing weather Car batteries are lead acid, not lead carbon. I'm not familiar with the technology, but I wouldn't assume the same performance for different chemistry.
    - coryrc 12y ago
      And a Battery University link: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_hi... And the most relevant paragraph: The performance of all battery chemistries drops drastically at low temperatures. At –20°C (–4°F) most nickel-, lead- and lithium-based batteries stop functioning. Although NiCd can go down to –40°C (-40°F), the permissible discharge is only 0.2C (5-hour rate). Specially built Li- ion brings the operating temperature down to –40°C, but only on discharge and at a reduced discharge. With lead acid we have the danger of the electrolyte freezing, which can crack the enclosure. Lead acid freezes more easily with a low charge when the specific gravity of the electrolyte is more like water.
      - coryrc 12y ago
        Here's another: http://lithiumpros.com/how-does-cold-weather-affect-lithium-batteries/ http://lithiumpros.com/how-does-cold-weather-affect-lithium-...
JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Decreases CO2 by 15%? Almost too little to matter. Other than as a marketing ploy.
- mikeash 12y ago
  15% better fuel economy is certainly noticeable even if it's not huge. Lots of car buyers prioritize fuel economy these days. Not every improvement has to be an order of magnitude.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    No,not fuel economy. CO2 reduction.
    - mikeash 12y ago
      What are you proposing the difference would be here? CO2 emission is directly proportional to gasoline consumption in a gas-powered car.
  - tarre 12y ago
    Moreover in many countries the taxes are related to CO2 emissions, which will result in savings as well.
    - iwwr 12y ago
      As electric cars become more popular, expect taxes on them to go up as well. Germany recently scrapped fuel tax breaks for biofuel. In the long run, it's unlikely for tax breaks to be maintained on popular items of consumption.
      - mikeash 12y ago
        Rational tax policy would levy taxes in proportion to the externalities produced by any given activity. Cars which emit air pollution generally produce more external costs than those which don't, so it would be reasonable to expect taxes on them to remain higher forever.
nicholas73 12y ago
I have been following the development of lead-carbon batteries, and invested in Axion Power (AXPW). The primary advantage of lead-carbon batteries is that they can have orders of magnitude greater charge/discharge cycles than normal lead acid batteries. A normal lead acid battery eventually sulfates and will no longer accept charge - causing you to have to switch your car battery. What the PbC does is have a carbon electrode on the negative plate, which prevents most of the sulfation problems. The positive plate experiences much less. This is exciting because hybrid vehicles and other power applications demand many more cycles than traditional ICE auto. Previously this niche was only available to expensive and explosive Li-ion batteries. Now cheaper and safer lead-carbon batteries could be used (though they contain less energy). Axion Power is a development stage company that holds the patent for a pure negative electrode PbC. Other competitor batteries pale by an order of magnitude to the number of cycles it can take. It currently has the train company Norfolk Southern developing an all-electric train using Axion's batteries. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/26/new-life-green-weenie-electric-locomotive/ http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/26/new-life-green-weenie-el... Axion also has auto companies, energy storage companies, and trucking companies developing apps using the PbC. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/axion-power-announces-order-for-four-powercube-energy-storage-systems-2014-05-14-10183230?reflink=MW_news_stmp http://www.marketwatch.com/story/axion-power-announces-order... http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/129019/Locomotive_Technology_to_Power_Class_8_Heavy_Trucks http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/129019/Locomotive_Tech... The reason the stock price is at 16 cents right now is because Axion has spent a decade developing the technology and is only beginning to see revenue. It has to raise money to continue operations. But the time is close. A risky but potential very rewarding investment. Each potential market for their battery number in the billions.
- carbocation 12y ago
  Just curious, does this post fall afoul of SEC guidelines re: microcap stocks, or is it OK because all of the information is technically public? Not trying to be critical here (though based on the form of my question, I suppose I am), just curious.
  - goodcanadian 12y ago
clumsysmurf 12y ago
Power Japan Plus also announced a new type of battery which is claimed to be suitable for cars, charges 20x faster than LiIon, has comparable energy density, ~ 3000 charge - discharge cycles, and will be produced this year in the standard 18650 format (but only for special applications like medical & satellites for now). I couldn't find any capacity / discharge curves though. I read about it here: http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-battery/32121/ http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-battery/3212... With original source here: http://powerjapanplus.com/about/news.html http://powerjapanplus.com/about/news.html
- nicholas73 12y ago
  This is a something of an indirect source, because I can't find the primary source for Axion's PbC cycle capability. But the PbC is far better than Power Japan Plus's. "PbC lead/carbon chemistry creates a much longer lifespan (3 to 4 times), much greater charge acceptance in partial state of charge applications (10 to 20 times more depending on the "state" of the battery)." http://www.torquenews.com/119/axion-power-pbc-battery-technology-proves-extended-capability-dc-naval-yard http://www.torquenews.com/119/axion-power-pbc-battery-techno... A regular LAB has about has around 2000 cycles. A LAB with carbon additives is not much better. See slide 16: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26257506/ELBC%202012/4_hybrid_electric_vehicles_p1/7%20-%20Norbert%20Maleschitz.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26257506/ELBC%202012/4_h... Thus, Axion's PbC could have 8k cycles of complete charge/discharge, and orders of magnitude greater for partial discharges (which is how it would actually be used). I have read it's over 100k cycles but I need to find the source.
  - akira2501 12y ago
    From http://www.axionpower.com/Technology http://www.axionpower.com/Technology: "Our test protocol requires a complete charge-discharge cycle every 7 hours to a 100% depth of discharge. During testing, our laboratory prototypes have withstood more than 2,500 cycles before failure. In comparison, most lead-acid batteries designed for deep discharge applications can only survive 400 to 600 cycles under these operating conditions." The interesting part about their batteries isn't the lifespan, it's the lifespan under 100% depth of discharge. You can easily get around 2k cycles out of a flooded cell lead-acid battery, but you can only go down to 60% discharge and you must carefully monitor the battery chemistry to get prolonged lifespan. Along with it's high current capacity, this would make it an interesting battery for renewable energy storage more than anything else. It's too bad they don't have a solid datasheet for their product yet. I'd like to see their figures for internal resistance, self discharge and performance over typical operating temperature ranges. Until we get to see this data, it's hard to say if this will be a profitable product.
spiritplumber 12y ago
My (not very scientific) findings while working on nautical equipment for stuff like barges and buoys are that the more weight-efficient a battery is, the less environmentally tough it is. We use SLA batteries wherever we can simply because they are likely to last for years where they're deployed.

39 points by nicholas73 12y ago

The reason from the article: “The development team selected lead-carbon batteries over lithium-ion equivalents as they require no active cooling, are more easily recyclable at the end of the vehicle’s life, and can function much more efficiently in sub-zero temperatures.” Is this line actually true: "An often-overlooked feature of most Li-ion cells is that they cannot and must not be charged below 0°C, and have poor output current below 0°C."

TD-Linux 12y ago
Yes, virtually all batteries perform poorly at low temperatures. IIRC, the Tesla can actually heat its batteries to increase performance. Most consumer-grade lithium ion batteries have a charging window between 0-45C, totally unacceptable for a car. 0-60C is more common for automotive batteries, but still isn't that large of a window.
- bri3d 12y ago
  Here's a diagram of the Tesla Model S's heat/cooling system. It's taken from a leaked picture of the engineering tools built into the infotainment system, which is a scary concept once you think about it: http://i.imgur.com/TOUXlWM.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TOUXlWM.jpg The car needs a substantial amount of both active heating and cooling in order to enable the batteries to both charge at all below 0C and to charge and discharge extremely rapidly when attached to a Supercharger or under heavy acceleration.
coryrc 12y ago
Lead cells have worse cold-temperature performance than lithium; at least, all cells that EV conversions have used (golf cart/AGM/VRLA versus LiFePO4/LiCo).
- nicholas73 12y ago
  Please provide a source on this, as this is directly opposite to what the article states, and dis-proven by millions of cars starting in freezing weather.
  - coryrc 12y ago
    A PR puff piece posted by a stock booster claims new invention is the greatest thing ever with no drawbacks? I'm so surprised. Every year when winter comes, there's a huge spike in starter battery sales. I'm not sure what you mean by "dis-proven". Start here: http://www.evdl.org/ http://www.evdl.org/
  - meepmorp 12y ago
    > dis-proven by millions of cars starting in freezing weather Car batteries are lead acid, not lead carbon. I'm not familiar with the technology, but I wouldn't assume the same performance for different chemistry.
  - coryrc 12y ago
    And a Battery University link: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_hi... And the most relevant paragraph: The performance of all battery chemistries drops drastically at low temperatures. At –20°C (–4°F) most nickel-, lead- and lithium-based batteries stop functioning. Although NiCd can go down to –40°C (-40°F), the permissible discharge is only 0.2C (5-hour rate). Specially built Li- ion brings the operating temperature down to –40°C, but only on discharge and at a reduced discharge. With lead acid we have the danger of the electrolyte freezing, which can crack the enclosure. Lead acid freezes more easily with a low charge when the specific gravity of the electrolyte is more like water.
    - coryrc 12y ago
      Here's another: http://lithiumpros.com/how-does-cold-weather-affect-lithium-batteries/ http://lithiumpros.com/how-does-cold-weather-affect-lithium-...

JoeAltmaier 12y ago

Decreases CO2 by 15%? Almost too little to matter. Other than as a marketing ploy.

mikeash 12y ago
15% better fuel economy is certainly noticeable even if it's not huge. Lots of car buyers prioritize fuel economy these days. Not every improvement has to be an order of magnitude.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  No,not fuel economy. CO2 reduction.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    What are you proposing the difference would be here? CO2 emission is directly proportional to gasoline consumption in a gas-powered car.
- tarre 12y ago
  Moreover in many countries the taxes are related to CO2 emissions, which will result in savings as well.
  - iwwr 12y ago
    As electric cars become more popular, expect taxes on them to go up as well. Germany recently scrapped fuel tax breaks for biofuel. In the long run, it's unlikely for tax breaks to be maintained on popular items of consumption.
    - mikeash 12y ago
      Rational tax policy would levy taxes in proportion to the externalities produced by any given activity. Cars which emit air pollution generally produce more external costs than those which don't, so it would be reasonable to expect taxes on them to remain higher forever.

nicholas73 12y ago

I have been following the development of lead-carbon batteries, and invested in Axion Power (AXPW). The primary advantage of lead-carbon batteries is that they can have orders of magnitude greater charge/discharge cycles than normal lead acid batteries. A normal lead acid battery eventually sulfates and will no longer accept charge - causing you to have to switch your car battery. What the PbC does is have a carbon electrode on the negative plate, which prevents most of the sulfation problems. The positive plate experiences much less. This is exciting because hybrid vehicles and other power applications demand many more cycles than traditional ICE auto. Previously this niche was only available to expensive and explosive Li-ion batteries. Now cheaper and safer lead-carbon batteries could be used (though they contain less energy). Axion Power is a development stage company that holds the patent for a pure negative electrode PbC. Other competitor batteries pale by an order of magnitude to the number of cycles it can take. It currently has the train company Norfolk Southern developing an all-electric train using Axion's batteries. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/26/new-life-green-weenie-electric-locomotive/ http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/26/new-life-green-weenie-el... Axion also has auto companies, energy storage companies, and trucking companies developing apps using the PbC. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/axion-power-announces-order-for-four-powercube-energy-storage-systems-2014-05-14-10183230?reflink=MW_news_stmp http://www.marketwatch.com/story/axion-power-announces-order... http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/129019/Locomotive_Technology_to_Power_Class_8_Heavy_Trucks http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/129019/Locomotive_Tech... The reason the stock price is at 16 cents right now is because Axion has spent a decade developing the technology and is only beginning to see revenue. It has to raise money to continue operations. But the time is close. A risky but potential very rewarding investment. Each potential market for their battery number in the billions.

carbocation 12y ago
Just curious, does this post fall afoul of SEC guidelines re: microcap stocks, or is it OK because all of the information is technically public? Not trying to be critical here (though based on the form of my question, I suppose I am), just curious.
- goodcanadian 12y ago

clumsysmurf 12y ago

Power Japan Plus also announced a new type of battery which is claimed to be suitable for cars, charges 20x faster than LiIon, has comparable energy density, ~ 3000 charge - discharge cycles, and will be produced this year in the standard 18650 format (but only for special applications like medical & satellites for now). I couldn't find any capacity / discharge curves though. I read about it here: http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-battery/32121/ http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-battery/3212... With original source here: http://powerjapanplus.com/about/news.html http://powerjapanplus.com/about/news.html

nicholas73 12y ago
This is a something of an indirect source, because I can't find the primary source for Axion's PbC cycle capability. But the PbC is far better than Power Japan Plus's. "PbC lead/carbon chemistry creates a much longer lifespan (3 to 4 times), much greater charge acceptance in partial state of charge applications (10 to 20 times more depending on the "state" of the battery)." http://www.torquenews.com/119/axion-power-pbc-battery-technology-proves-extended-capability-dc-naval-yard http://www.torquenews.com/119/axion-power-pbc-battery-techno... A regular LAB has about has around 2000 cycles. A LAB with carbon additives is not much better. See slide 16: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26257506/ELBC%202012/4_hybrid_electric_vehicles_p1/7%20-%20Norbert%20Maleschitz.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26257506/ELBC%202012/4_h... Thus, Axion's PbC could have 8k cycles of complete charge/discharge, and orders of magnitude greater for partial discharges (which is how it would actually be used). I have read it's over 100k cycles but I need to find the source.
- akira2501 12y ago
  From http://www.axionpower.com/Technology http://www.axionpower.com/Technology: "Our test protocol requires a complete charge-discharge cycle every 7 hours to a 100% depth of discharge. During testing, our laboratory prototypes have withstood more than 2,500 cycles before failure. In comparison, most lead-acid batteries designed for deep discharge applications can only survive 400 to 600 cycles under these operating conditions." The interesting part about their batteries isn't the lifespan, it's the lifespan under 100% depth of discharge. You can easily get around 2k cycles out of a flooded cell lead-acid battery, but you can only go down to 60% discharge and you must carefully monitor the battery chemistry to get prolonged lifespan. Along with it's high current capacity, this would make it an interesting battery for renewable energy storage more than anything else. It's too bad they don't have a solid datasheet for their product yet. I'd like to see their figures for internal resistance, self discharge and performance over typical operating temperature ranges. Until we get to see this data, it's hard to say if this will be a profitable product.

spiritplumber 12y ago

My (not very scientific) findings while working on nautical equipment for stuff like barges and buoys are that the more weight-efficient a battery is, the less environmentally tough it is. We use SLA batteries wherever we can simply because they are likely to last for years where they're deployed.