4 ms·

Remove the union. Now everybody gets paid $16,000 and the "percentage of revenues paid to pilots" can be slashed. Is that a) Better? b) The other thing? (Yes

Remove the union. Now everybody gets paid $16,000 and the "percentage of revenues paid to pilots" can be slashed. Is that a) Better? b) The other thing? (Yes, the current situation sucks and those unions certainly don't help it any. This is not an argument for the status quo.)

ekianjo 12y ago
If you remove unions from all airlines, then it's very likely going to bring the salaries up for inexperienced pilots, because then the airlines have more flexibility as to how much they pay pilots per head, and will likely compete just like they do on the marketplace in other categories of jobs.
- krisgee 12y ago
  Not trying to be snarky but are there any historical examples of across the board raises that have stuck after a union gets busted?
  - dopamean 12y ago
    The answer is no. If there were you'd already know about it because anti-union people would bring it up at every opportunity.
    - Shivetya 12y ago
      The reverse is very much true too. Having seen what some new pilots make and the shit routes they get all this talk about how negotiations somehow favor them over senior pilots is odd, those negotiations are refinements of existing contracts which have always benefited those with the most years. They encourage staying at your airline because when you don't you fall in rank and pay, the same when you get bought out. Hence when mergers occur the different unions have to agree to their members don't lose out. In a highly specialized and professional trade as pilots are I am still trying to see why a union is necessary.
  - cynicalkane 12y ago
    No examples of a union being "busted" but in a few cities there's been a pattern of massively increased junior salaries for teachers, together with a significant weakening of teachers' union power.
    - Yver 12y ago
      Any example that you could, you know, share?
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    The comment you are replying to says nothing about 'across the board'.
  - hueving 12y ago
    Well when a union is busted usually all of the union members are let go. The smaller number of people that do get jobs at the same place usually get just as good or better offers, especially if they are newer. It's not across the board because of the top union earners that are privileged with triple salary for simply being in a place longer than the others. Their salaries will get slashed. That's always going to happen when you convert from a system that rewards people based on time served rather than merit.
    - danielweber 12y ago
      Well when a union is busted usually all of the union members are let go This needs some clarification. Firing people for merely belonging to a union is illegal, and ought to remain so. However, firing people for refusing to work (ie, striking) is not illegal.
Strang 12y ago
I'm not sure why you assume that removing the union will result in all pilots making a pittance. I am not in a union, yet I make more than $16,000.
mcv 12y ago
The problem is that those unions seem to operate in a very short-sighted selfish way with no regard for the consequences or even the interests of their own junior members. Thing is, I hear lots of stories about how American unions devastate their own industries. Why is that? Dutch unions make sure their members (including the young ones) are fairly compensated, but they are invested in the long term health of the industry, because that is also the long term livelihood of their members. Generally there are regular talks where employers, unions and government discuss this on an equal footing and reach an agreement that everybody can live with. So why don't US unions work like that?
- mattgreenrocks 12y ago
  Your comment applies to many US businesses as well. It's never enough to simply do well, you're supposed to utterly dominate whatever industry you're in (and then branch out to others), even if it means jeopardizing the industry in the long-term. It reflects a juvenile, ego-centric view of the world that often gets rewarded.

ekianjo 12y ago

If you remove unions from all airlines, then it's very likely going to bring the salaries up for inexperienced pilots, because then the airlines have more flexibility as to how much they pay pilots per head, and will likely compete just like they do on the marketplace in other categories of jobs.

krisgee 12y ago
Not trying to be snarky but are there any historical examples of across the board raises that have stuck after a union gets busted?
- dopamean 12y ago
  The answer is no. If there were you'd already know about it because anti-union people would bring it up at every opportunity.
  - Shivetya 12y ago
    The reverse is very much true too. Having seen what some new pilots make and the shit routes they get all this talk about how negotiations somehow favor them over senior pilots is odd, those negotiations are refinements of existing contracts which have always benefited those with the most years. They encourage staying at your airline because when you don't you fall in rank and pay, the same when you get bought out. Hence when mergers occur the different unions have to agree to their members don't lose out. In a highly specialized and professional trade as pilots are I am still trying to see why a union is necessary.
- cynicalkane 12y ago
  No examples of a union being "busted" but in a few cities there's been a pattern of massively increased junior salaries for teachers, together with a significant weakening of teachers' union power.
  - Yver 12y ago
    Any example that you could, you know, share?
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  The comment you are replying to says nothing about 'across the board'.
- hueving 12y ago
  Well when a union is busted usually all of the union members are let go. The smaller number of people that do get jobs at the same place usually get just as good or better offers, especially if they are newer. It's not across the board because of the top union earners that are privileged with triple salary for simply being in a place longer than the others. Their salaries will get slashed. That's always going to happen when you convert from a system that rewards people based on time served rather than merit.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    Well when a union is busted usually all of the union members are let go This needs some clarification. Firing people for merely belonging to a union is illegal, and ought to remain so. However, firing people for refusing to work (ie, striking) is not illegal.

Strang 12y ago

I'm not sure why you assume that removing the union will result in all pilots making a pittance. I am not in a union, yet I make more than $16,000.

mcv 12y ago

The problem is that those unions seem to operate in a very short-sighted selfish way with no regard for the consequences or even the interests of their own junior members. Thing is, I hear lots of stories about how American unions devastate their own industries. Why is that? Dutch unions make sure their members (including the young ones) are fairly compensated, but they are invested in the long term health of the industry, because that is also the long term livelihood of their members. Generally there are regular talks where employers, unions and government discuss this on an equal footing and reach an agreement that everybody can live with. So why don't US unions work like that?

mattgreenrocks 12y ago
Your comment applies to many US businesses as well. It's never enough to simply do well, you're supposed to utterly dominate whatever industry you're in (and then branch out to others), even if it means jeopardizing the industry in the long-term. It reflects a juvenile, ego-centric view of the world that often gets rewarded.