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U.S. announces first criminal charges against foreign country for cyberspying

90 points by Rogerh91 12y ago

andri 12y ago
Well, as they say, best defense is a good offense.
- tuan5 12y ago
  +1
pdw 12y ago
Nice timing, Cisco just sent Obama a letter complaining about NSA tampering... http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27468794 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27468794
duaneb 12y ago
When can we file criminal charges against the US government?
- gress 12y ago
  At any court you like. It happens all the time.
  - duaneb 12y ago
    Sure, if they want to be sued.
Havoc 12y ago
No doubt said Chinese persons are distraught at the prospect of never being able to visit Disneyland. Short of WWIII there isn't much way to enforce such a verdict over foreigners on foreign soil.
madaxe_again 12y ago
This just in: pot calls kettle black.
sschueller 12y ago
Im surprised it isn't Russia they are going after. I guess the justice dept. didn't get the memo.
dmix 12y ago
It's so strange seeing a person in full military outfit (and Chinese) on FBI's "cyber" most wanted list: http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber When it pretty much has always been 20-something eastern-euro/Russian and the odd middle eastern hacker.
- jcromartie 12y ago
  Where? They might not be on that page anymore.
  - jcromartie 12y ago
    I swear there were no Chinese entries on that page the first time I looked...
- jokoon 12y ago
  I find that pretty hilarious
  - eightofdiamonds 12y ago
    Also Wang Dong
jeremymcanally 12y ago
The point that most of you are missing is that the NSA's intelligence gathering activity and activities of that class are completely unrelated to these charges. They are being charged with economic hacking activities. Trade secrets were being lifted and handed to Chinese companies. An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. Regardless of your feelings on the NSA's actions, this isn't the same type of "all countries hack each other" activity. And if you think metal and solar companies are the only one suffering these sorts of attacks, you're crazy. I think it's just that the other victims don't want to be named publicly for a variety of reasons. This sort of activity is a serious problem, but you can't just file charges all willy-nilly. Fortunately the U.S. already had economic actions in motion through resolution channels pertaining to the dumping of solar tech, so it makes this sort of thing much easier to do I think.
- Loughla 12y ago
  I honestly thought it was a very public 'secret' that China and Chinese companies 'adopt' much of their technology from elsewhere. Why else are we advised to travel with (essentially) burner laptops and phones when in China? Is that not the case? If it's not, is this really the first time the US has had ample evidence or incentive to move forward?
  - anExcitedBeast 12y ago
    US-Sino relations are volatile. I'm sure this has been discussed privately for years, but it was politically risky to talk about publicly. This is the first time they decided to take it public with force.
- Phlarp 12y ago
  >They are being charged with economic hacking activities. Trade secrets were being lifted and handed to Chinese companies. An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple Yes, of course, the bright red line isn't international espionage, it's economic espionage! [1] [1]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...
Gonzih 12y ago
Ironic. I guess.
kimdouglasmason 12y ago
I wonder if the Chinese will charge a few Americans with something in retaliation. Standing on its own, this action is pointless. As part of a larger strategy to provide evidence to justify future tariffs or sanctions, it would make sense. My guess is that's where the US is heading with this.
jokoon 12y ago
in what court exactly ?
Nanzikambe 12y ago
Nice moral high ground there!
ant_sz 12y ago
hmmm... before Snowden said it out we didn't know anything about what NSA is doing, but at that time, the US government was always saying China is doing what NSA is doing. I was not accusing anything, but you see, the announcement is lack of persuasion. The spying game seems to be a zero-sum game. After charged china for spying for business, the US government may find it won't have any effect, then the best strategy will turns out to be doing the same. Think about the billions of the dollars companies spend as political contribution. After the war begins, It really doesn't matter who shot the first bullet.
- AJ007 12y ago
  There is a lot of justifiable skepticism regarding spycraft. Read declassified accounts of the cold war. What happened swings between delusional paranoia -- where the Soviets thought the US & UK were preparing for a pre-emptive nuclear strike, to extremely serious, where the Soviets knew everything the US Navy was doing for a year. At best a zero sum game, at worst, it creates situations where wars start based on things that just aren't true. Espionage is a bit different, but still a mess. Presumably the only enforcement the US can take against those indicted here is financial -- which would mean assets that fall within the US's control. How does Beijing react? The most interesting end effect of this could be the US's loss of criminal enforcement on the global financial system, reversing much of the benefits of post 9/11 anti-money laundering policy. Co-operation occurs when both sides benefit. I suspect some people in the US State Dept are very annoyed today.
grymoire1 12y ago
Magicians misdirect the audience using similar tactics. This is the equivalent to a woman in a skimpy outfit walking around on the stage, and bending over in a low-cut dress, while the magician switches one object for another.
etiam 12y ago
Hypocrites.
pasbesoin 12y ago
I've yet to read up on this. But my initial reaction is: And zero accountability for those responsible for the gross systems mismanagement that too often enabled this activity. I fear that security on the Internet is moving towards "rubber hose" security. It's not about truly securing systems and processes; instead, physical means will be used to intimidate and "punish". And even then, it's not the truly responsible who are being intimidated. Nor, in the current circumstance, are the physical measures directly effective. Instead, we have propaganda. "Don't look at our mistakes and neglect. Spend your anger and frustration on these foreign nationals, all conveniently framed for maximum effect. And never mind that we (government as well as private industry) do the same -- we're the 'good guys'."
rayray 12y ago
I wonder what the motivation is behind these charges. I have a hard time believing this to be remotely comparable to what NSA is doing both in term of technical capability and scale. I mean, ffs, these "military hackers" use their initials in the aliases. (according to FBI's wanted page)
candybar 12y ago
For those who are calling the actions of the US "hypocritical" and others who are indiscriminately defending the US by saying "but we didn't do this and that" - don't forget to distinguish between individuals and countries. Those who are doing this in China are most likely not doing this for China - they are taking advantage of state resources to benefit themselves and their cronies. As much as they are stealing from the US, they are stealing from their own citizens. This is good old-fashioned corruption. The loop of corruption tends to be more subtle and longer in the US, but it's also most likely the case many people who are engaged in espionage, corporate or otherwise, are out for themselves and using the information, expenditures, etc, to directly or indirectly benefit themselves. Random people from China and France and the US arguing among themselves pretending that the enemy is definitely the spying apparatus in the other country and not their own and so on is kind of missing the point and worse, doing exactly what the perpetrators want us to be doing. The discord between nations, manufactured or not, is their raison d'etre - it's what keeps them funded. With that said, holding specific individuals responsible and make their lives difficult is sounds pretty good to me. I wish this happened more often, for US officials abusing their authority as well as foreign officials. Edit: The point isn't that these people aren't employed by the Chinese government, but that the end goal is almost certainly private gains. China isn't some single unified entity where all government employees are working tirelessly for "China" or in this case, to benefit corporate titans who are much richer than they are - economic espionage on behalf of specific private sector entities is almost certainly about some quid pro quo by which government employees are monetizing their official capacity.
- Htsthbjig 12y ago
  "Those who are doing this in China are most likely not doing this for China - they are taking advantage of state resources to benefit themselves and their cronies" Quite the contrary. Odds are that the people in China that could access computers, and the people that could spend months doing this ARE working for the government of China. It is the Government of China he who has resources, not so individuals. Individuals in China could be at much script kiddies. Education is poor at the moment, and most people are so poor that just buying a computer is a sacrifice. But Government is very powerful there.
- 12y ago
homulilly 12y ago
I'd say this is an instance of the pot calling the kettle black but the US has done far more than simply spy on foreign companies so calling it straight up hypocrisy is a huge understatement.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rasz_pl 12y ago
I didnt realize Keith B. Alexander was Chinese. Good job on bringing appropriate charges and finally impeaching that bastard. ..oh wait
jacquesm 12y ago
And this sort of thing is why you keep the moral high ground. Too bad, it would have been an excellent case otherwise.
deadfish 12y ago
US Press Release - 'China are the bad guys and don't forget it!'

90 points by Rogerh91 12y ago

andri 12y ago

Well, as they say, best defense is a good offense.

tuan5 12y ago
+1

pdw 12y ago

Nice timing, Cisco just sent Obama a letter complaining about NSA tampering... http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27468794 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27468794

duaneb 12y ago

When can we file criminal charges against the US government?

gress 12y ago
At any court you like. It happens all the time.
- duaneb 12y ago
  Sure, if they want to be sued.

Havoc 12y ago

No doubt said Chinese persons are distraught at the prospect of never being able to visit Disneyland. Short of WWIII there isn't much way to enforce such a verdict over foreigners on foreign soil.

madaxe_again 12y ago

This just in: pot calls kettle black.

sschueller 12y ago

Im surprised it isn't Russia they are going after. I guess the justice dept. didn't get the memo.

dmix 12y ago

It's so strange seeing a person in full military outfit (and Chinese) on FBI's "cyber" most wanted list: http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber When it pretty much has always been 20-something eastern-euro/Russian and the odd middle eastern hacker.

jcromartie 12y ago
Where? They might not be on that page anymore.
- jcromartie 12y ago
  I swear there were no Chinese entries on that page the first time I looked...
jokoon 12y ago
I find that pretty hilarious
- eightofdiamonds 12y ago
  Also Wang Dong

jeremymcanally 12y ago

The point that most of you are missing is that the NSA's intelligence gathering activity and activities of that class are completely unrelated to these charges. They are being charged with economic hacking activities. Trade secrets were being lifted and handed to Chinese companies. An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. Regardless of your feelings on the NSA's actions, this isn't the same type of "all countries hack each other" activity. And if you think metal and solar companies are the only one suffering these sorts of attacks, you're crazy. I think it's just that the other victims don't want to be named publicly for a variety of reasons. This sort of activity is a serious problem, but you can't just file charges all willy-nilly. Fortunately the U.S. already had economic actions in motion through resolution channels pertaining to the dumping of solar tech, so it makes this sort of thing much easier to do I think.

Loughla 12y ago
I honestly thought it was a very public 'secret' that China and Chinese companies 'adopt' much of their technology from elsewhere. Why else are we advised to travel with (essentially) burner laptops and phones when in China? Is that not the case? If it's not, is this really the first time the US has had ample evidence or incentive to move forward?
- anExcitedBeast 12y ago
  US-Sino relations are volatile. I'm sure this has been discussed privately for years, but it was politically risky to talk about publicly. This is the first time they decided to take it public with force.
Phlarp 12y ago
>They are being charged with economic hacking activities. Trade secrets were being lifted and handed to Chinese companies. An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple Yes, of course, the bright red line isn't international espionage, it's economic espionage! [1] [1]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...

Gonzih 12y ago

Ironic. I guess.

kimdouglasmason 12y ago

I wonder if the Chinese will charge a few Americans with something in retaliation. Standing on its own, this action is pointless. As part of a larger strategy to provide evidence to justify future tariffs or sanctions, it would make sense. My guess is that's where the US is heading with this.

jokoon 12y ago

in what court exactly ?

Nanzikambe 12y ago

Nice moral high ground there!

ant_sz 12y ago

hmmm... before Snowden said it out we didn't know anything about what NSA is doing, but at that time, the US government was always saying China is doing what NSA is doing. I was not accusing anything, but you see, the announcement is lack of persuasion. The spying game seems to be a zero-sum game. After charged china for spying for business, the US government may find it won't have any effect, then the best strategy will turns out to be doing the same. Think about the billions of the dollars companies spend as political contribution. After the war begins, It really doesn't matter who shot the first bullet.

AJ007 12y ago
There is a lot of justifiable skepticism regarding spycraft. Read declassified accounts of the cold war. What happened swings between delusional paranoia -- where the Soviets thought the US & UK were preparing for a pre-emptive nuclear strike, to extremely serious, where the Soviets knew everything the US Navy was doing for a year. At best a zero sum game, at worst, it creates situations where wars start based on things that just aren't true. Espionage is a bit different, but still a mess. Presumably the only enforcement the US can take against those indicted here is financial -- which would mean assets that fall within the US's control. How does Beijing react? The most interesting end effect of this could be the US's loss of criminal enforcement on the global financial system, reversing much of the benefits of post 9/11 anti-money laundering policy. Co-operation occurs when both sides benefit. I suspect some people in the US State Dept are very annoyed today.

grymoire1 12y ago

Magicians misdirect the audience using similar tactics. This is the equivalent to a woman in a skimpy outfit walking around on the stage, and bending over in a low-cut dress, while the magician switches one object for another.

etiam 12y ago

Hypocrites.

pasbesoin 12y ago

I've yet to read up on this. But my initial reaction is: And zero accountability for those responsible for the gross systems mismanagement that too often enabled this activity. I fear that security on the Internet is moving towards "rubber hose" security. It's not about truly securing systems and processes; instead, physical means will be used to intimidate and "punish". And even then, it's not the truly responsible who are being intimidated. Nor, in the current circumstance, are the physical measures directly effective. Instead, we have propaganda. "Don't look at our mistakes and neglect. Spend your anger and frustration on these foreign nationals, all conveniently framed for maximum effect. And never mind that we (government as well as private industry) do the same -- we're the 'good guys'."

rayray 12y ago

I wonder what the motivation is behind these charges. I have a hard time believing this to be remotely comparable to what NSA is doing both in term of technical capability and scale. I mean, ffs, these "military hackers" use their initials in the aliases. (according to FBI's wanted page)

candybar 12y ago

For those who are calling the actions of the US "hypocritical" and others who are indiscriminately defending the US by saying "but we didn't do this and that" - don't forget to distinguish between individuals and countries. Those who are doing this in China are most likely not doing this for China - they are taking advantage of state resources to benefit themselves and their cronies. As much as they are stealing from the US, they are stealing from their own citizens. This is good old-fashioned corruption. The loop of corruption tends to be more subtle and longer in the US, but it's also most likely the case many people who are engaged in espionage, corporate or otherwise, are out for themselves and using the information, expenditures, etc, to directly or indirectly benefit themselves. Random people from China and France and the US arguing among themselves pretending that the enemy is definitely the spying apparatus in the other country and not their own and so on is kind of missing the point and worse, doing exactly what the perpetrators want us to be doing. The discord between nations, manufactured or not, is their raison d'etre - it's what keeps them funded. With that said, holding specific individuals responsible and make their lives difficult is sounds pretty good to me. I wish this happened more often, for US officials abusing their authority as well as foreign officials. Edit: The point isn't that these people aren't employed by the Chinese government, but that the end goal is almost certainly private gains. China isn't some single unified entity where all government employees are working tirelessly for "China" or in this case, to benefit corporate titans who are much richer than they are - economic espionage on behalf of specific private sector entities is almost certainly about some quid pro quo by which government employees are monetizing their official capacity.

Htsthbjig 12y ago
"Those who are doing this in China are most likely not doing this for China - they are taking advantage of state resources to benefit themselves and their cronies" Quite the contrary. Odds are that the people in China that could access computers, and the people that could spend months doing this ARE working for the government of China. It is the Government of China he who has resources, not so individuals. Individuals in China could be at much script kiddies. Education is poor at the moment, and most people are so poor that just buying a computer is a sacrifice. But Government is very powerful there.
12y ago

homulilly 12y ago

I'd say this is an instance of the pot calling the kettle black but the US has done far more than simply spy on foreign companies so calling it straight up hypocrisy is a huge understatement.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

rasz_pl 12y ago

I didnt realize Keith B. Alexander was Chinese. Good job on bringing appropriate charges and finally impeaching that bastard. ..oh wait

jacquesm 12y ago

And this sort of thing is why you keep the moral high ground. Too bad, it would have been an excellent case otherwise.

deadfish 12y ago

US Press Release - 'China are the bad guys and don't forget it!'