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Another article on CrossFit, written by Mark Rippetoe, a famous and influential strength coach, is here: http://www.t-nation.com/training/crossfit-the-good-bad

by Jabbles 12y ago

Another article on CrossFit, written by Mark Rippetoe, a famous and influential strength coach, is here: http://www.t-nation.com/training/crossfit-the-good-bad-and-the-ugly http://www.t-nation.com/training/crossfit-the-good-bad-and-t... He makes many of the same points, but I find the arguments more persuasive. It's also interesting to note the arguments in favour of CrossFit. Finally, Mark seems to have completely different opinions about deadlifting; he regards them as a staple to strength training, whereas the OP "doesn't do" them for unknown reasons. I find the disagreement among professionals to be intriguing.

r0h1n 12y ago
I too was perplexed by the OP's aversion to deadlifts. It's pretty much a staple exercise in most strength training programs - right from Rippletoe's classic "Starting Strength Training" to "New Rules of Lifting" to even StrongLifts 5x5.
- imsofuture 12y ago
  I quit doing deadlifts when I stopped competing in powerlifting. Deadlifts are a fine lift, and not inherently dangerous -- but I do think they are inherently risky. After hurting my back (while being competently coached), now lifting uncoached, and without one of my goals being 'deadlift a big number to get a medal' -- I've dropped them from my routine. I just don't find the benefits necessarily worth the risk, in my specific case.
- sheepmullet 12y ago
  Because it is very easy to be stupid with deadlifts. You should be following these simple guidelines but hardly anyone does: 1. If you are tired/hungover/sick/not feeling well/angry then don't deadlift 2. If you don't have the time to do 3-5 warmup sets then don't deadlift 3. If you don't have time to rest at least 3 mins between sets then don't deadlift. 4. If you can't lift a light/medium weight with perfect form then don't try and go heavy. 5. If you aren't competing and under the instruction of a trained powerlifting coach then don't try and max anything. If you can't do 7 reps with a weight then you shouldn't be doing 5 reps. Likewise if you can't do 3 reps with a weight then you shouldn't be doing 1. Leave 1-2 reps in the bank.
watwut 12y ago
Deadlifts are very effective for strength training if you use correct technique, but it is very easy to injure yourself while doing them. If you have someone to teach them to you and correct your mistakes and focus technique, they are very effective. They lead to injuries if you do not know how to do them right or do not focus on technique. Note that CrossFit is not strength training and strength training normally focus on technique a lot. So, it may make perfect sense for the OP to refuse doing them normally (after all he does not seem to go after strength training) and for someone going after strength celebrating them.
- kanamekun 12y ago
  << So, it may make perfect sense for the OP to refuse doing them normally (after all he does not seem to go after strength training) and for someone going after strength celebrating them. >> One reason the OP isn't going after strength: she's a former athlete currently working to cross over into fitness modeling. http://erinsimmonsfitness.me/ http://erinsimmonsfitness.me/ http://erinsimmonsfitness.me/2011/11/30/picture-post-november-29/ http://erinsimmonsfitness.me/2011/11/30/picture-post-novembe...
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    Which I find ironic. I've injured myself much more doing sports than lifting weights. Also, some fitness models squat and deadlift, they shouldn't be afraid of systemic exercises, rather than isolated ones. With the rest of the issues I kind of agree, still, I think it's a bit of exaggeration of risks.
weego 12y ago
Some strength coaches see a good deadlift as the outcome of excellence at other disciplines, so there is no need to specifically add deadlifting itself to a solid program. Personally I could take or leave DL, I have it in my routine right now but I sumo lift as I need to work on hamstring strength due to suffering from backpain largely due to pelvis alignment issues. The other thing to note about sumo is your lift succeeds or fails in the first inches off the ground where the power is going through your legs and your back is fixed in a "strong" position, whereas your classic deadlift stance the off the ground is the easy part and you are fighting with the weight getting upright where your back is at its most vulnerable.
- emiljbs 12y ago
  First of all: A wide stance low bar back squat going down to parallel together with conventional deadlifts will strengthen your hamstrings and glutes greatly. There are reasons to pull sumo, those reasons are mainly proportion-related. Most people I've talked to who pull sumo at meets usually also train using the conventional dead lift (see for example Dan Green). Second of all: I'm going to assume that your pelvis suffer from an anterior tilt. If so, then focus more on stretching your psoas muscles since these are usually very tight in people who sit down a lot (and you browse HNews) and pulls on your pelvis. Strengthening your back, hamstrings, glutes and quads aren't a bad idea either, it's just that these are things that usually come with a good training program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psoas_major_muscle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psoas_major_muscle Third of all: The position that is toughest for the lifter is largely dependent on the lifter's own weaknesses. I, for example, deadlift conventionally and have the most trouble to come off the floor because I usually do touch-and-go DLs.
ZenPro 12y ago
The OP was quite clear. The risk versus reward for deadlifts is not (IHO) worth it. They are a staple in many programs (as noted here) but like a few other exercises some professionals do not think they are worth the risk. Similar to 'Good Mornings' which other coaches avoid. Bruce Lee famously injured his back performing Good Mornings.
- Detrus 12y ago
  If you exclude deadlifts it's now harder to exercise important muscles necessary for bench and overhead press. These would be your back muscles and lats. You can do rows, but they require many of the same lower back muscles as deadlifts, which you didn't train properly by avoiding deadlifts. So if your bench goes into 250lb+ range but your deadlift is barely 315lb, and your row is 150 lbs, you are exposing your shoulders to injury by having a strength imbalance between chest and back muscles. I stopped deadlifting, but continued weighted pullups and rows but still experienced shoulder problems from bench. They subsided when I added deadlifts back. Of course you can also stop benching to get weaker there and preserve the muscle balance. But if you don't, then you have to take calculated risks. By avoiding deadlifts while continuing to bench you're trading off the risk of a potential injury in one place for a guaranteed injury in another. That's why classic lifting programs include exercises for the whole body, not just ones you like. The professionals that exclude them must also balance your chest/shoulder strength. Or must demand you spend more time in the gym doing back volume. Or insist on more humble fitness goals. Or focus on machines, which increases your risk of injury whenever you do physical activity in the real world. Or succeed with enough clients that they can fail with the rest. There is no free lunch. As with "professionals" in any industry the only common incentive among them is to get your money.
raverbashing 12y ago
I think this is a better writeup. And my favorite quote: "This is precisely why the advanced athletes who win and place at the CrossFit Games do not use CrossFit website programming to achieve advanced levels of the strength and conditioning necessary to perform at that level. None of them. This is widely known and freely admitted by everyone not involved with the company. All athletes at advanced levels must Train intelligently to advance, and CrossFit: The Methodology doesn't do the job."
mmondok 12y ago
I was a college athlete in a large program where we used Olympic lifting extensively. It's true that form was emphasized over weight and repetition, and I gained quite a bit of muscle mass from that. Forward about 8 years later and I continued doing those lifts: deadlifts, cleans, etc. I always focused strictly on my form, but I also challenged myself and kept adding weight as long as I could lift it properly. Well, about two years ago I was in the gym deadlifting a significant amount of weight. I was going for one rep. As I was slightly above my ankles, I felt my form slip very slightly and my lower back just collapsed. I spent the better part of the next year rehabbing and doing physical therapy to help repair a buldging disc. It still hurts me to this day and to counteract it I have to keep my core (abs) very strong. That being said, I do cardio every day and am in the gym doing bodyweight/light HIIT six days per week. My takeaway from all this is that certain exercises, even if you know what you're doing, may not be worth it. I was training simply to be fit - that was my goal. Deadlifts will absolutely make you stronger, but they are also incredibly dangerous if your form deviates even slightly from where it should be. Today I'm happy and seeing great results with bodyweight exercises, light weights, and a proper diet. Honestly, I feel better than I ever have besides aches in my lower back.
- Cor 12y ago
  I had something similar happen myself, albeit not as bad your experience. While doing a warm up set of deadlifts (I think it was 120kg x 5 - I was working up to 180kg x 5, iirc), I lost my concentration for just a second on the third rep and my form broke down, leading to a pulled muscle in my back. It took me three or four months of stretching and rehab to fix it. Squats and deadlifts are awesome exercises, but they need to be done with 100% concentration. A single second of lapsed concentration can, potentially, lead to a lifetime of problems. I still squat and deadlift today, but I'm super careful when I do so. If things don't feel right (e.g., my concentration is slipping, the bar feels heavier than normal), I walk away and go home. I'd rather play it safe than hurt myself badly.
- AhtiK 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, what do you consider a proper diet, what has been working best for you?
matwood 12y ago
I cut my power lifting teeth on Rippetoe years ago. Now that I'm older I'll likely not hit any new deadlift PRs again, but I'll never stop doing them :)
cthalupa 12y ago
>I find the disagreement among professionals to be intriguing. Any professional that doesn't think you should do deadlifts is one that you should be weary of. I think CrossFit is ridiculous as well, but when I saw the OP listing deadlifts as a low reward for high risk, it instantly throws into question their knowledge of the subject at hand. A deadlift done with proper form is one of the safest exercises you can do with free weights, because there's no chance of failure resulting in the bar and weight falling on you like could happen with a squat or press. They're dangerous with poor form, but anyone doing any sort of exercise should make sure they're doing it properly. Deadlift form is pretty simple, as well. The problem is if you're not focused, things can go poorly, as others have commented. Stay focused, stay safe. And as for the reward part, there's probably not any other single exercise that provides so much potential gain in strength and muscle mass. Squats, presses, and rows fall shortly behind. Compound lifts are excellent in general and minimize your risk of injury compared to simple lifts that do not strengthen stabilizer muscles, etc.

by Jabbles 12y ago

r0h1n 12y ago

I too was perplexed by the OP's aversion to deadlifts. It's pretty much a staple exercise in most strength training programs - right from Rippletoe's classic "Starting Strength Training" to "New Rules of Lifting" to even StrongLifts 5x5.

imsofuture 12y ago
I quit doing deadlifts when I stopped competing in powerlifting. Deadlifts are a fine lift, and not inherently dangerous -- but I do think they are inherently risky. After hurting my back (while being competently coached), now lifting uncoached, and without one of my goals being 'deadlift a big number to get a medal' -- I've dropped them from my routine. I just don't find the benefits necessarily worth the risk, in my specific case.
sheepmullet 12y ago
Because it is very easy to be stupid with deadlifts. You should be following these simple guidelines but hardly anyone does: 1. If you are tired/hungover/sick/not feeling well/angry then don't deadlift 2. If you don't have the time to do 3-5 warmup sets then don't deadlift 3. If you don't have time to rest at least 3 mins between sets then don't deadlift. 4. If you can't lift a light/medium weight with perfect form then don't try and go heavy. 5. If you aren't competing and under the instruction of a trained powerlifting coach then don't try and max anything. If you can't do 7 reps with a weight then you shouldn't be doing 5 reps. Likewise if you can't do 3 reps with a weight then you shouldn't be doing 1. Leave 1-2 reps in the bank.

watwut 12y ago

Deadlifts are very effective for strength training if you use correct technique, but it is very easy to injure yourself while doing them. If you have someone to teach them to you and correct your mistakes and focus technique, they are very effective. They lead to injuries if you do not know how to do them right or do not focus on technique. Note that CrossFit is not strength training and strength training normally focus on technique a lot. So, it may make perfect sense for the OP to refuse doing them normally (after all he does not seem to go after strength training) and for someone going after strength celebrating them.

kanamekun 12y ago
<< So, it may make perfect sense for the OP to refuse doing them normally (after all he does not seem to go after strength training) and for someone going after strength celebrating them. >> One reason the OP isn't going after strength: she's a former athlete currently working to cross over into fitness modeling. http://erinsimmonsfitness.me/ http://erinsimmonsfitness.me/ http://erinsimmonsfitness.me/2011/11/30/picture-post-november-29/ http://erinsimmonsfitness.me/2011/11/30/picture-post-novembe...
- raverbashing 12y ago
  Which I find ironic. I've injured myself much more doing sports than lifting weights. Also, some fitness models squat and deadlift, they shouldn't be afraid of systemic exercises, rather than isolated ones. With the rest of the issues I kind of agree, still, I think it's a bit of exaggeration of risks.

weego 12y ago

Some strength coaches see a good deadlift as the outcome of excellence at other disciplines, so there is no need to specifically add deadlifting itself to a solid program. Personally I could take or leave DL, I have it in my routine right now but I sumo lift as I need to work on hamstring strength due to suffering from backpain largely due to pelvis alignment issues. The other thing to note about sumo is your lift succeeds or fails in the first inches off the ground where the power is going through your legs and your back is fixed in a "strong" position, whereas your classic deadlift stance the off the ground is the easy part and you are fighting with the weight getting upright where your back is at its most vulnerable.

emiljbs 12y ago
First of all: A wide stance low bar back squat going down to parallel together with conventional deadlifts will strengthen your hamstrings and glutes greatly. There are reasons to pull sumo, those reasons are mainly proportion-related. Most people I've talked to who pull sumo at meets usually also train using the conventional dead lift (see for example Dan Green). Second of all: I'm going to assume that your pelvis suffer from an anterior tilt. If so, then focus more on stretching your psoas muscles since these are usually very tight in people who sit down a lot (and you browse HNews) and pulls on your pelvis. Strengthening your back, hamstrings, glutes and quads aren't a bad idea either, it's just that these are things that usually come with a good training program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psoas_major_muscle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psoas_major_muscle Third of all: The position that is toughest for the lifter is largely dependent on the lifter's own weaknesses. I, for example, deadlift conventionally and have the most trouble to come off the floor because I usually do touch-and-go DLs.

ZenPro 12y ago

The OP was quite clear. The risk versus reward for deadlifts is not (IHO) worth it. They are a staple in many programs (as noted here) but like a few other exercises some professionals do not think they are worth the risk. Similar to 'Good Mornings' which other coaches avoid. Bruce Lee famously injured his back performing Good Mornings.

Detrus 12y ago
If you exclude deadlifts it's now harder to exercise important muscles necessary for bench and overhead press. These would be your back muscles and lats. You can do rows, but they require many of the same lower back muscles as deadlifts, which you didn't train properly by avoiding deadlifts. So if your bench goes into 250lb+ range but your deadlift is barely 315lb, and your row is 150 lbs, you are exposing your shoulders to injury by having a strength imbalance between chest and back muscles. I stopped deadlifting, but continued weighted pullups and rows but still experienced shoulder problems from bench. They subsided when I added deadlifts back. Of course you can also stop benching to get weaker there and preserve the muscle balance. But if you don't, then you have to take calculated risks. By avoiding deadlifts while continuing to bench you're trading off the risk of a potential injury in one place for a guaranteed injury in another. That's why classic lifting programs include exercises for the whole body, not just ones you like. The professionals that exclude them must also balance your chest/shoulder strength. Or must demand you spend more time in the gym doing back volume. Or insist on more humble fitness goals. Or focus on machines, which increases your risk of injury whenever you do physical activity in the real world. Or succeed with enough clients that they can fail with the rest. There is no free lunch. As with "professionals" in any industry the only common incentive among them is to get your money.

raverbashing 12y ago

I think this is a better writeup. And my favorite quote: "This is precisely why the advanced athletes who win and place at the CrossFit Games do not use CrossFit website programming to achieve advanced levels of the strength and conditioning necessary to perform at that level. None of them. This is widely known and freely admitted by everyone not involved with the company. All athletes at advanced levels must Train intelligently to advance, and CrossFit: The Methodology doesn't do the job."

mmondok 12y ago

I was a college athlete in a large program where we used Olympic lifting extensively. It's true that form was emphasized over weight and repetition, and I gained quite a bit of muscle mass from that. Forward about 8 years later and I continued doing those lifts: deadlifts, cleans, etc. I always focused strictly on my form, but I also challenged myself and kept adding weight as long as I could lift it properly. Well, about two years ago I was in the gym deadlifting a significant amount of weight. I was going for one rep. As I was slightly above my ankles, I felt my form slip very slightly and my lower back just collapsed. I spent the better part of the next year rehabbing and doing physical therapy to help repair a buldging disc. It still hurts me to this day and to counteract it I have to keep my core (abs) very strong. That being said, I do cardio every day and am in the gym doing bodyweight/light HIIT six days per week. My takeaway from all this is that certain exercises, even if you know what you're doing, may not be worth it. I was training simply to be fit - that was my goal. Deadlifts will absolutely make you stronger, but they are also incredibly dangerous if your form deviates even slightly from where it should be. Today I'm happy and seeing great results with bodyweight exercises, light weights, and a proper diet. Honestly, I feel better than I ever have besides aches in my lower back.

Cor 12y ago
I had something similar happen myself, albeit not as bad your experience. While doing a warm up set of deadlifts (I think it was 120kg x 5 - I was working up to 180kg x 5, iirc), I lost my concentration for just a second on the third rep and my form broke down, leading to a pulled muscle in my back. It took me three or four months of stretching and rehab to fix it. Squats and deadlifts are awesome exercises, but they need to be done with 100% concentration. A single second of lapsed concentration can, potentially, lead to a lifetime of problems. I still squat and deadlift today, but I'm super careful when I do so. If things don't feel right (e.g., my concentration is slipping, the bar feels heavier than normal), I walk away and go home. I'd rather play it safe than hurt myself badly.
AhtiK 12y ago
Out of curiosity, what do you consider a proper diet, what has been working best for you?

matwood 12y ago

I cut my power lifting teeth on Rippetoe years ago. Now that I'm older I'll likely not hit any new deadlift PRs again, but I'll never stop doing them :)

cthalupa 12y ago

>I find the disagreement among professionals to be intriguing. Any professional that doesn't think you should do deadlifts is one that you should be weary of. I think CrossFit is ridiculous as well, but when I saw the OP listing deadlifts as a low reward for high risk, it instantly throws into question their knowledge of the subject at hand. A deadlift done with proper form is one of the safest exercises you can do with free weights, because there's no chance of failure resulting in the bar and weight falling on you like could happen with a squat or press. They're dangerous with poor form, but anyone doing any sort of exercise should make sure they're doing it properly. Deadlift form is pretty simple, as well. The problem is if you're not focused, things can go poorly, as others have commented. Stay focused, stay safe. And as for the reward part, there's probably not any other single exercise that provides so much potential gain in strength and muscle mass. Squats, presses, and rows fall shortly behind. Compound lifts are excellent in general and minimize your risk of injury compared to simple lifts that do not strengthen stabilizer muscles, etc.