6 ms·

No. That's not just evil, and most likely illegal, it's stupid too. It's too easy for something like that to leak, and the damage would be enormous.

by paul 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
sillysaurus3 12y ago
Hi Paul. Sorry, I didn't mean to write a conspiratorial comment about Google. I meant to call attention to the fact that every textual conversation you've ever had has probably been logged, and just because our legal and cultural framework presently frowns upon digging through those logs, that may not always be the case in the future. The logs will persist even after our cultural norms change. So it seems important to come up with a technological solution to the problem of how to communicate without all of it being logged. It's a difficult problem because it's hard to get other people to actually use whatever you come up with. That's why I'm crossing my fingers that TextSecure's browser plugin will take off, because if it's as easy to use as email and as powerful as email, it could have a very tiny chance of becoming the next popular communications platform. At that point no one would have to trust any company to preserve privacy, which seems valuable. EDIT: I'm confused why my comments were moved to the bottom of this thread, because they don't seem offtopic. For example, the second topmost comment is also about encryption: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7731216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7731216
- nutjob2 12y ago
  "the fact that every textual conversation you've ever had is logged" That's patently untrue. What are you basing that on besides your own paranoia?
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    The fact that if law enforcement demands access to your conversations, companies can readily produce them.
    - moultano 12y ago
      Naturally you only hear about the times companies could produce them, and not all of the times they couldn't.
  - ErikRogneby 12y ago
    How many people delete anything from their ever growing inbox these days? Not just logged but readily accessible in the cloud.
    - mike_hearn 12y ago
      Email that you delete from Gmail (once it falls out of the trash) IS deleted permanently after a while. It's not immediate because it has to wait for backups to cycle around and rewrite old storage, but it does happen.
frozenport 12y ago
>>damage would be enormous Would it? The NSA is reading everything and I haven't seen see many changes. I think we as a society need to sit down and figure out if these services should be in the private domain or instead implemented in the public domain that matches with our values. We spend billions, why can't we spend a few to make an internet that doesn't spy on us. I don't think I could stop using Google. I don't know what would make me stop.
- paul 12y ago
  The government also kills people with drone strikes, but that doesn't mean Google could get away with that. Where is this public domain that you trust so much and why are they more honest that Google?
  - frozenport 12y ago
    >>that doesn't mean Google could get away with that You piqued my interest, what would happen if they killed somebody? Probably whoever asked for it would get in trouble (unless they deleted the logs...), but I doubt I would or could stop using Google. We use web-search like a utility. >>Where is this public domain that you trust so much If it works or not is another story, but we have a de-jure mechanism for government accountability wherein nothing exists for corporations. We might be able to make a publicly accountable internet infrastructure, but there is no similar mandate for a corporation.
    - paul 12y ago
      If Google killed someone, the people who ordered and executed the operation would likely go to jail. The government gets away with it because they are effectively above the law, despite the veneer of accountability.
realistt 12y ago
I think you are being far too naive. Of course they use this information to their advantage. Just because it hasn't "leaked" or is "illegal" doesn't mean it isn't done. It is only stupid if you get caught, stupid.
realistt 12y ago
I would love to know how it would be so easy to leak this information. Can you think of any possible circumstances where this could be done and not leaked? Are there such great safeguards in place where this is not possible? Or is it entirely possible?
hershel 12y ago
We've heard news about google and microsoft spying on user's email. Nothing happened. That's not that different.
- icebraining 12y ago
  What news? We heard that they have automated indexers that use the info for showing you ads, but that wasn't "news", it was part of the ToS from beginning.
  - nowlnowl 12y ago
    Microsoft read some guys mails to find a leak in the company.
    - deong 12y ago
      And it's not true that "nothing happened" in that case. Microsoft was publicly beaten up a bit, and then changed their policy to say they will no longer do that.
      - throwaway7767 12y ago
        > Microsoft was publicly beaten up a bit, and then changed their policy to say they will no longer do that. What? No. They saw the PR pouncing they were taking, so they hired a former judge to rubber stamp such things in the future, and had the gall to call it a "judicial process" (even though the guy is just a microsoft employee at this point).
        deong 12y ago
        This (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/microsoft-will-no-longer-look-through-your-hotmail-to-investigate-leaks/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/microsoft-will-no...) is what I was referring to. Whether Ars Technica is wrong about it, I can't say.
  - 12y ago

No. That's not just evil, and most likely illegal, it's stupid too. It's too easy for something like that to leak, and the damage would be enormous.

by paul 12y ago

No. That's not just evil, and most likely illegal, it's stupid too. It's too easy for something like that to leak, and the damage would be enormous.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

sillysaurus3 12y ago

Hi Paul. Sorry, I didn't mean to write a conspiratorial comment about Google. I meant to call attention to the fact that every textual conversation you've ever had has probably been logged, and just because our legal and cultural framework presently frowns upon digging through those logs, that may not always be the case in the future. The logs will persist even after our cultural norms change. So it seems important to come up with a technological solution to the problem of how to communicate without all of it being logged. It's a difficult problem because it's hard to get other people to actually use whatever you come up with. That's why I'm crossing my fingers that TextSecure's browser plugin will take off, because if it's as easy to use as email and as powerful as email, it could have a very tiny chance of becoming the next popular communications platform. At that point no one would have to trust any company to preserve privacy, which seems valuable. EDIT: I'm confused why my comments were moved to the bottom of this thread, because they don't seem offtopic. For example, the second topmost comment is also about encryption: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7731216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7731216

nutjob2 12y ago
"the fact that every textual conversation you've ever had is logged" That's patently untrue. What are you basing that on besides your own paranoia?
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  The fact that if law enforcement demands access to your conversations, companies can readily produce them.
  - moultano 12y ago
    Naturally you only hear about the times companies could produce them, and not all of the times they couldn't.
- ErikRogneby 12y ago
  How many people delete anything from their ever growing inbox these days? Not just logged but readily accessible in the cloud.
  - mike_hearn 12y ago
    Email that you delete from Gmail (once it falls out of the trash) IS deleted permanently after a while. It's not immediate because it has to wait for backups to cycle around and rewrite old storage, but it does happen.

frozenport 12y ago

>>damage would be enormous Would it? The NSA is reading everything and I haven't seen see many changes. I think we as a society need to sit down and figure out if these services should be in the private domain or instead implemented in the public domain that matches with our values. We spend billions, why can't we spend a few to make an internet that doesn't spy on us. I don't think I could stop using Google. I don't know what would make me stop.

paul 12y ago
The government also kills people with drone strikes, but that doesn't mean Google could get away with that. Where is this public domain that you trust so much and why are they more honest that Google?
- frozenport 12y ago
  >>that doesn't mean Google could get away with that You piqued my interest, what would happen if they killed somebody? Probably whoever asked for it would get in trouble (unless they deleted the logs...), but I doubt I would or could stop using Google. We use web-search like a utility. >>Where is this public domain that you trust so much If it works or not is another story, but we have a de-jure mechanism for government accountability wherein nothing exists for corporations. We might be able to make a publicly accountable internet infrastructure, but there is no similar mandate for a corporation.
  - paul 12y ago
    If Google killed someone, the people who ordered and executed the operation would likely go to jail. The government gets away with it because they are effectively above the law, despite the veneer of accountability.

realistt 12y ago

I think you are being far too naive. Of course they use this information to their advantage. Just because it hasn't "leaked" or is "illegal" doesn't mean it isn't done. It is only stupid if you get caught, stupid.

realistt 12y ago

I would love to know how it would be so easy to leak this information. Can you think of any possible circumstances where this could be done and not leaked? Are there such great safeguards in place where this is not possible? Or is it entirely possible?

hershel 12y ago

We've heard news about google and microsoft spying on user's email. Nothing happened. That's not that different.

icebraining 12y ago
What news? We heard that they have automated indexers that use the info for showing you ads, but that wasn't "news", it was part of the ToS from beginning.
- nowlnowl 12y ago
  Microsoft read some guys mails to find a leak in the company.
  - deong 12y ago
    And it's not true that "nothing happened" in that case. Microsoft was publicly beaten up a bit, and then changed their policy to say they will no longer do that.
    - throwaway7767 12y ago
      > Microsoft was publicly beaten up a bit, and then changed their policy to say they will no longer do that. What? No. They saw the PR pouncing they were taking, so they hired a former judge to rubber stamp such things in the future, and had the gall to call it a "judicial process" (even though the guy is just a microsoft employee at this point).
      - deong 12y ago
        This (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/microsoft-will-no-longer-look-through-your-hotmail-to-investigate-leaks/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/microsoft-will-no...) is what I was referring to. Whether Ars Technica is wrong about it, I can't say.
- 12y ago