4 ms·

Thinkpads are truly awesome - but the problem is that lenovo is buying into the macbook hype machine without putting thought around it's design process. for ex

Thinkpads are truly awesome - but the problem is that lenovo is buying into the macbook hype machine without putting thought around it's design process. for example, I recently bought a T430S as opposed to one of the newer T440 ranges. the touchpad is an abomination - and plus they soldered one of the RAMs to the motherboard. Seriously ? One of the biggest differentiators that thinkpads have is their upgradability. I can easily upgrade the CPU of a T430 series [1] and bump up the ram to 16 gb. the newer thinkpads lose both those abilities. The Thinkpad designers have not been able to make up their minds on what they want to build - which is why we see lines like T430/T430s/T430u/T430e and T440/T440s/T440p. [1] http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/684625-t430-upgrade.html http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/684625-t430-upgrade.h...

existencebox 13y ago
I have heard through coworker word of mouth, through discussions with lenovo engineers, that the touchpad changes have not been positively received even by the internal engineers. Pretty much everyone I've talked to (including my unfortunate fiancee who had the misfortune of buying one of these) thinks that touchpad is the worst thing since various laptop producers started going towards chicklets. I really wonder how these companies push forward despite (from my point of view) SIGNIFICANT customer pushback. Am I really stuck this far in an engineering bubble, or are things really so disconnected?
- kiallmacinnes 13y ago
  I actually like the touchpad on my T440s, it took some getting used to compared to my old T430s though...
- reirob 13y ago
  It is really that bad. I sent a new machine back - it was worthless for me [1]. For me it is not so much the touchpad changes (I do not use the touchpad) as the lack of physical trackpoint buttons. But even when I tried the new touchpad I absolutely hated the touchpad-is-a-button functionality. It does NOT feel good, sounds horible and is far from being ergonomic. For me personally it would be best to be able to buy Thinkpads just with trackpoint + buttons, but without touchpad. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729110
- thom 13y ago
  Then you have something like the X1 Carbon which compounds the touchpad issues with a wacky keyboard layout.
nextos 13y ago
I can't agree enough. They don't seem to understand that they're destroying a great brand. If they want to create minimalistic MacBook-like designs, they should come up with new models. But at least some T, W & X Thinkpads should stay true to their IBM origins. Thinkpads are workhorses. MacBooks are mostly targeted towards the consumer market. Glossy screens are just one proof of this. They are great machines. I type this from a MacBook Air. But better laptops should exist for developers. However, manufacturers seem too busy copying Apple's design cues and upgrading their enormous product lines.
- mindslight 13y ago
  The thing is they have created a gazillion other indistinguishable lines, which I presume are even junkier due to not having the head start of IBM designs. Sometimes I question whether my recent upgrade to a T61 was a good investment. A faster processor and more than 8GiB would be nice. Power efficiency and LCD technology has gotten a lot better and I could learn to live with a shortscreen. And playing with a T431 for a short time, the changed trackpoint buttons didn't seem that bad. Then I read articles like this and their comments and remember the reasons I generally keep my head in the sand for the technology upgrade cycle.
- null_ptr 13y ago
  On a tangential, what's the deal with glossy instead of matte screens on all mainstream laptops? Is it that they're more durable and easier to clean? Do the colors look better?
  - gcb0 13y ago
    They look shiny on a best buy display bench. That's the only reason. Everyone buys the shiny thing.
    - darkmighty 13y ago
      It's a nuisance, but not that hard to fix with a screen film.
    - 13y ago
reirob 13y ago
Cannot agree enough. I have ordered the T440s and after playing 2 days with it I sent it back and started a hunt for a T430s. I was lucky to get one through a distributor where it was used for demonstration. For me the absolute no-go was the lack of physical trackpoint buttons - as I am a trackpoint user and normally always switch off the trackpads. So on the T440s (and I believe on all the new Thinkpad series) if you switch the trackpad off you do not have buttons any more (under Linux)! WTF! And if you switch it on, then the click on the virtual buttons is moving the mouse cursor when you try to click on it! It drew me absolute crazy. Even under Windows, where the virtual button support is better, the use is way more unergonomic than before (for example you cannot anymore keep the thumbs on the buttons and click by pressure - now you have to lift and then press the thumbs). Unlike other Thinkpad users I actually like the feel of the new keyboards, but Lenovo managed even there to screw things up, with every model: On the 30s (T430) they forgot the spaces between groups of 4 F-Keys. In the 440 they have them, but they screwed up the trackpoint-buttons. And on the new X1 Carbon they do not have F-Keys anymore at all! I still do not understand how they could screw up the most distinctive characteristics of the Thinkpads (absolute best keyboards, absolute best trackpoint + accessible design). I hope they will wake up.
- thom 13y ago
  Yeah, I was minutes away from buying an X1 Carbon until I saw the home and end keys where my pinky expects Ctrl to be mapped.
- rawland 13y ago
  May I cite you in my blog? You pretty much nailed it down! Maybe some remedy for you: Managed to somewhat re-enable the old "IBM" design by making the top 10% of the the touchpad insensitive to mouse movement, while still detecting _where_ you press. So I basically "emulate" three buttons at the top, while the rest of the touchpad, truly is a touchpad: http://rscircus.org/post/72978821261/t440s-clickpad-fix-which-feels-good http://rscircus.org/post/72978821261/t440s-clickpad-fix-whic...
  - sandGorgon 13y ago
    dude - that config is awesome. I have T430s which is better by far (sorry !), but here's my config to configure the touchpad sensitivity, disable two finger right click, etc. https://gist.github.com/sandys/6030823#file-t430s-configuration https://gist.github.com/sandys/6030823#file-t430s-configurat... Can you add your configs to gist.github.com as well - helps me clone it.

existencebox 13y ago

I have heard through coworker word of mouth, through discussions with lenovo engineers, that the touchpad changes have not been positively received even by the internal engineers. Pretty much everyone I've talked to (including my unfortunate fiancee who had the misfortune of buying one of these) thinks that touchpad is the worst thing since various laptop producers started going towards chicklets. I really wonder how these companies push forward despite (from my point of view) SIGNIFICANT customer pushback. Am I really stuck this far in an engineering bubble, or are things really so disconnected?

kiallmacinnes 13y ago
I actually like the touchpad on my T440s, it took some getting used to compared to my old T430s though...
reirob 13y ago
It is really that bad. I sent a new machine back - it was worthless for me [1]. For me it is not so much the touchpad changes (I do not use the touchpad) as the lack of physical trackpoint buttons. But even when I tried the new touchpad I absolutely hated the touchpad-is-a-button functionality. It does NOT feel good, sounds horible and is far from being ergonomic. For me personally it would be best to be able to buy Thinkpads just with trackpoint + buttons, but without touchpad. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729110
thom 13y ago
Then you have something like the X1 Carbon which compounds the touchpad issues with a wacky keyboard layout.

nextos 13y ago

I can't agree enough. They don't seem to understand that they're destroying a great brand. If they want to create minimalistic MacBook-like designs, they should come up with new models. But at least some T, W & X Thinkpads should stay true to their IBM origins. Thinkpads are workhorses. MacBooks are mostly targeted towards the consumer market. Glossy screens are just one proof of this. They are great machines. I type this from a MacBook Air. But better laptops should exist for developers. However, manufacturers seem too busy copying Apple's design cues and upgrading their enormous product lines.

mindslight 13y ago
The thing is they have created a gazillion other indistinguishable lines, which I presume are even junkier due to not having the head start of IBM designs. Sometimes I question whether my recent upgrade to a T61 was a good investment. A faster processor and more than 8GiB would be nice. Power efficiency and LCD technology has gotten a lot better and I could learn to live with a shortscreen. And playing with a T431 for a short time, the changed trackpoint buttons didn't seem that bad. Then I read articles like this and their comments and remember the reasons I generally keep my head in the sand for the technology upgrade cycle.
null_ptr 13y ago
On a tangential, what's the deal with glossy instead of matte screens on all mainstream laptops? Is it that they're more durable and easier to clean? Do the colors look better?
- gcb0 13y ago
  They look shiny on a best buy display bench. That's the only reason. Everyone buys the shiny thing.
  - darkmighty 13y ago
    It's a nuisance, but not that hard to fix with a screen film.
  - 13y ago

reirob 13y ago

Cannot agree enough. I have ordered the T440s and after playing 2 days with it I sent it back and started a hunt for a T430s. I was lucky to get one through a distributor where it was used for demonstration. For me the absolute no-go was the lack of physical trackpoint buttons - as I am a trackpoint user and normally always switch off the trackpads. So on the T440s (and I believe on all the new Thinkpad series) if you switch the trackpad off you do not have buttons any more (under Linux)! WTF! And if you switch it on, then the click on the virtual buttons is moving the mouse cursor when you try to click on it! It drew me absolute crazy. Even under Windows, where the virtual button support is better, the use is way more unergonomic than before (for example you cannot anymore keep the thumbs on the buttons and click by pressure - now you have to lift and then press the thumbs). Unlike other Thinkpad users I actually like the feel of the new keyboards, but Lenovo managed even there to screw things up, with every model: On the 30s (T430) they forgot the spaces between groups of 4 F-Keys. In the 440 they have them, but they screwed up the trackpoint-buttons. And on the new X1 Carbon they do not have F-Keys anymore at all! I still do not understand how they could screw up the most distinctive characteristics of the Thinkpads (absolute best keyboards, absolute best trackpoint + accessible design). I hope they will wake up.

thom 13y ago
Yeah, I was minutes away from buying an X1 Carbon until I saw the home and end keys where my pinky expects Ctrl to be mapped.
rawland 13y ago
May I cite you in my blog? You pretty much nailed it down! Maybe some remedy for you: Managed to somewhat re-enable the old "IBM" design by making the top 10% of the the touchpad insensitive to mouse movement, while still detecting _where_ you press. So I basically "emulate" three buttons at the top, while the rest of the touchpad, truly is a touchpad: http://rscircus.org/post/72978821261/t440s-clickpad-fix-which-feels-good http://rscircus.org/post/72978821261/t440s-clickpad-fix-whic...
- sandGorgon 13y ago
  dude - that config is awesome. I have T430s which is better by far (sorry !), but here's my config to configure the touchpad sensitivity, disable two finger right click, etc. https://gist.github.com/sandys/6030823#file-t430s-configuration https://gist.github.com/sandys/6030823#file-t430s-configurat... Can you add your configs to gist.github.com as well - helps me clone it.