4 ms·

So what I gather from reading the article, they switched to Linux because of "security" as MS wouldn't tell them what software was "calling home" and to foster

So what I gather from reading the article, they switched to Linux because of "security" as MS wouldn't tell them what software was "calling home" and to foster the local IT economy as opposed to sending money overseas. I may be alone in this, but those don't seem like compelling, or even believable justifications for switching an entire region to Linux. Are we to believe that MS flew Balmer all the way there to try to convince them to stay, but wouldn't disclose to them what aspects of Windows called home? Also, where is the data that shows how the switch to Linux has helped the local IT economy? Love Linux as much as the next guy, but it seems many of these decisions are driven by staff IT geeks who have it out for MS irregardless of the actual issues at hand.

brudgers 13y ago
You're not alone. Munich doesn't represent some unique enlightenment on the part of local government. It is just an ordinary political decision where the calculus was informed by conditions which just happened to be statistical outliers and thus the result is also a statistical outlier. About the time this decision was rolling out, I worked in Municipal government. They had standardized on WordPerfect Office Suite. As part of my job, I attended a few council workshops and can unequivocally assert that these were neither visionaries nor geniuses. Just people making decisions that balanced their personal aspirations and the public good while answering their constiuancy. This story gets rolled out every few months and draws the expected upvotes. One day I hope to read an inside technical account rather than 'Linux has Risen, Risen Indeed.' Today alas is not that day.
- josefresco 13y ago
  "One day I hope to read an inside technical account" Me too! Most of these feel-good Linux switch stories either fail to look at the long term picture (I switched to Linux last week and so far no problems!) or fail to address the specific reasons why Linux was chosen, or is superior to the MS products. When I read that in this case they weren't saving any money, I was intrigued and eager to read about the real reason. Yet, after reading the entire account I still don't feel like there is/was any compelling data to back up or justify the decision.
  - Moru 13y ago
    There is a certain difference between: A: We pay lots of money to a company based out of country and get nothing back in taxes. B: We pay lots of money to several companies inside our own town and get a portion of that back in taxes.
    - brudgers 13y ago
      B: In a global economy, how likely is it that a local company provides the best net value in regard to something like IT?
      - fuck_google 13y ago
        It's pretty much certain, if you take taxation, need for continuos development, and long-term competence/competitiveness etc. into account. Especially with the public sector one should look at the big picture, which bean counters sadly seem to be incapable of doing.
    - josefresco 13y ago
      I'm just asking for proof of B. Even though I would argue the portion returned in taxes would be insignificant. I gripe frequently about local towns awarding contracts to entities not within the town/state/region, but I'd like to see some sort of data about how this helped the local economy and wasn't just a xenophobic/isolationist response.
      - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
        German income tax rate goes up to 45% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax). But you get to tax the company on sales [of the software to Munich city], and you get profit based taxes usually. Then you get the taxes from the wages of the workers. Then you get the taxes from the money the software workers spending locally, then you get the taxes from the people servicing those software workers. And so on. If you spend money on something from a local independent company, especially one that has little to pay in terms of inputs and overheads, then the money seems usually to stay local. I wonder how they coped with EU competition law that - from the little I know - seems to require anything paid for with government money to be put to open tender and to not preference origin in the purchasing decision.
noir_lord 13y ago
> So what I gather from reading the article, they switched to Linux because of "security" as MS wouldn't tell them what software was "calling home" In light of all the recent links and the sheer cosiness of American corporations with the US intelligence this starts to look prescient. > and to foster the local IT economy as opposed to sending money overseas. I could easily see a local government selling that to it's local workers. > Are we to believe that MS flew Balmer all the way there to try to convince them to stay, but wouldn't disclose to them what aspects of Windows called home? Microsoft won't disclose that kind of information to anyone, there is still not a clear picture of what various Microsoft products (including these days Skype) do and do not do.
- josefresco 13y ago
  "In light of all the recent links and the sheer cosiness of American corporations with the US intelligence this starts to look prescient." Hindsight is a helluva thing. If you remember back 15 years, not a single person knew of the recent revelations regarding the NSA. The "controversy" was about Microsoft's effort to curb piracy, and many (including myself) within the industry were weary of how authoritarian (or not) their approach was. Don't apply the knowledge of today to past events that did not enjoy the same. "I could easily see a local government selling that to it's local workers." What was kind of my point ... its sounds good to the locals but what actual results has it returned? Does Munich now have a robust Linux economy with local providers swimming in work? I can't say whether they do or not, only that the article lacked any proof of either. "Microsoft won't disclose that kind of information to anyone, there is still not a clear picture of what various Microsoft products (including these days Skype) do and do not do." I can't speak to this, as I'm not aware of how much or little MS has disclosed about what services within XP called home. I just found it hard to believe MS would exert such effort (how much did Balmer's time cost?), but fail to address the specific concern raised.
  - noir_lord 13y ago
    If Microsoft where (and I'm not saying they where) they would never disclose it to a small local government in German. I always figured Ballmer flying in to save the day was more a "We really don't want a flagship successful transfer away from our products for the rest to rally around" defense than anything. Anecdotally I have a friend in local government here in the North of England and their IT internally is already heavily linux and open source (everything from CentOS on machines through to Alfresco) as what they need to do with the budget they have been given makes open source attractive especially when you can't reduce head counts to save costs (councils don't normally lay people off except as a last resort). I could see a Linux migration happening here in the next few years.
DanBC 13y ago
> Love Linux as much as the next guy, but it seems many of these decisions are driven by staff IT geeks who have it out for MS irregardless of the actual issues at hand. I did not downvote you. I suspect that IT geeks have very little power in the purchasing decisions of local government IT software. I suspect that there is a huge bureaucratic structure of tendering and selection. I could be wrong though.
- josefresco 13y ago
  Local government elect/appoints IT geeks in various important positions to advise them on, and even make these decisions. If your hired IT expert says "we need to switch to Linux" I would imagine they'd listen. I'm not proposing that these IT geeks are shoving their tech-religious beliefs down the throats of the public but rather they are exposing their biases to at least their immediate bosses, who ultimately make the decisions and trust their hired experts.
MrBuddyCasino 13y ago
There is definitely some mixed feedback, apparently for the users it wasn't actually that pleasant, some describing the switch as a nightmare. A green politician made that public, and she was subsequently shouted down. Only found a german source, sorry: http://www.silicon.de/41595329/ob-kandidatin-kritisiert-limux-projekt-in-muenchen/ http://www.silicon.de/41595329/ob-kandidatin-kritisiert-limu... Personally, I would never use OpenOffice or even Linux Desktop. They would have to pry my MacBook Pro from my cold, dead hands - and yes, MS Office on OSX is actually not that bad. At least not as bad as OpenOffice.
sergiosgc 13y ago
> (...) and to foster the local IT economy as opposed to sending money overseas. From a state angle, selling to the local economy is a huge money saver. I think the VAT in Germany is 19%. When buying locally, that is an immediate saving of 19%, as it gets collected in taxes immediately. If it is a local shop, and if it spends the money locally also, 19% of (a large portion of) the remainder gets taxed also at 19%. Through taxation, the government is suddenly getting a discount of 1/3, after looking at only two levels of capital circulation. Add in effects of reduced unemployment and other positive effects of economic activity, and suddenly it is an unbeatable proposition.
- bosie 13y ago
  Wouldn't this be a business-to-business deal and hence no VAT is applied?
  - sergiosgc 13y ago
    Of course VAT is applied. Businesses pay VAT, just like everyone. The key to understanding VAT is to focus on the value-added part. Businesses pay VAT on their purchases, charge VAT to their customers in their sales, and get a payback from the government equal to the difference of the two values. They thus pay VAT on the value they add to the economic flow. Every participant on the economic flow of a good pays their share of VAT, the whole good gets taxed in. Companies and individuals aren't different, except that individual consumers have no one to charge VAT to. They are the end of the line for the good or service.

brudgers 13y ago

You're not alone. Munich doesn't represent some unique enlightenment on the part of local government. It is just an ordinary political decision where the calculus was informed by conditions which just happened to be statistical outliers and thus the result is also a statistical outlier. About the time this decision was rolling out, I worked in Municipal government. They had standardized on WordPerfect Office Suite. As part of my job, I attended a few council workshops and can unequivocally assert that these were neither visionaries nor geniuses. Just people making decisions that balanced their personal aspirations and the public good while answering their constiuancy. This story gets rolled out every few months and draws the expected upvotes. One day I hope to read an inside technical account rather than 'Linux has Risen, Risen Indeed.' Today alas is not that day.

josefresco 13y ago
"One day I hope to read an inside technical account" Me too! Most of these feel-good Linux switch stories either fail to look at the long term picture (I switched to Linux last week and so far no problems!) or fail to address the specific reasons why Linux was chosen, or is superior to the MS products. When I read that in this case they weren't saving any money, I was intrigued and eager to read about the real reason. Yet, after reading the entire account I still don't feel like there is/was any compelling data to back up or justify the decision.
- Moru 13y ago
  There is a certain difference between: A: We pay lots of money to a company based out of country and get nothing back in taxes. B: We pay lots of money to several companies inside our own town and get a portion of that back in taxes.
  - brudgers 13y ago
    B: In a global economy, how likely is it that a local company provides the best net value in regard to something like IT?
    - fuck_google 13y ago
      It's pretty much certain, if you take taxation, need for continuos development, and long-term competence/competitiveness etc. into account. Especially with the public sector one should look at the big picture, which bean counters sadly seem to be incapable of doing.
  - josefresco 13y ago
    I'm just asking for proof of B. Even though I would argue the portion returned in taxes would be insignificant. I gripe frequently about local towns awarding contracts to entities not within the town/state/region, but I'd like to see some sort of data about how this helped the local economy and wasn't just a xenophobic/isolationist response.
    - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
      German income tax rate goes up to 45% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax). But you get to tax the company on sales [of the software to Munich city], and you get profit based taxes usually. Then you get the taxes from the wages of the workers. Then you get the taxes from the money the software workers spending locally, then you get the taxes from the people servicing those software workers. And so on. If you spend money on something from a local independent company, especially one that has little to pay in terms of inputs and overheads, then the money seems usually to stay local. I wonder how they coped with EU competition law that - from the little I know - seems to require anything paid for with government money to be put to open tender and to not preference origin in the purchasing decision.

noir_lord 13y ago

> So what I gather from reading the article, they switched to Linux because of "security" as MS wouldn't tell them what software was "calling home" In light of all the recent links and the sheer cosiness of American corporations with the US intelligence this starts to look prescient. > and to foster the local IT economy as opposed to sending money overseas. I could easily see a local government selling that to it's local workers. > Are we to believe that MS flew Balmer all the way there to try to convince them to stay, but wouldn't disclose to them what aspects of Windows called home? Microsoft won't disclose that kind of information to anyone, there is still not a clear picture of what various Microsoft products (including these days Skype) do and do not do.

josefresco 13y ago
"In light of all the recent links and the sheer cosiness of American corporations with the US intelligence this starts to look prescient." Hindsight is a helluva thing. If you remember back 15 years, not a single person knew of the recent revelations regarding the NSA. The "controversy" was about Microsoft's effort to curb piracy, and many (including myself) within the industry were weary of how authoritarian (or not) their approach was. Don't apply the knowledge of today to past events that did not enjoy the same. "I could easily see a local government selling that to it's local workers." What was kind of my point ... its sounds good to the locals but what actual results has it returned? Does Munich now have a robust Linux economy with local providers swimming in work? I can't say whether they do or not, only that the article lacked any proof of either. "Microsoft won't disclose that kind of information to anyone, there is still not a clear picture of what various Microsoft products (including these days Skype) do and do not do." I can't speak to this, as I'm not aware of how much or little MS has disclosed about what services within XP called home. I just found it hard to believe MS would exert such effort (how much did Balmer's time cost?), but fail to address the specific concern raised.
- noir_lord 13y ago
  If Microsoft where (and I'm not saying they where) they would never disclose it to a small local government in German. I always figured Ballmer flying in to save the day was more a "We really don't want a flagship successful transfer away from our products for the rest to rally around" defense than anything. Anecdotally I have a friend in local government here in the North of England and their IT internally is already heavily linux and open source (everything from CentOS on machines through to Alfresco) as what they need to do with the budget they have been given makes open source attractive especially when you can't reduce head counts to save costs (councils don't normally lay people off except as a last resort). I could see a Linux migration happening here in the next few years.

DanBC 13y ago

> Love Linux as much as the next guy, but it seems many of these decisions are driven by staff IT geeks who have it out for MS irregardless of the actual issues at hand. I did not downvote you. I suspect that IT geeks have very little power in the purchasing decisions of local government IT software. I suspect that there is a huge bureaucratic structure of tendering and selection. I could be wrong though.

josefresco 13y ago
Local government elect/appoints IT geeks in various important positions to advise them on, and even make these decisions. If your hired IT expert says "we need to switch to Linux" I would imagine they'd listen. I'm not proposing that these IT geeks are shoving their tech-religious beliefs down the throats of the public but rather they are exposing their biases to at least their immediate bosses, who ultimately make the decisions and trust their hired experts.

MrBuddyCasino 13y ago

There is definitely some mixed feedback, apparently for the users it wasn't actually that pleasant, some describing the switch as a nightmare. A green politician made that public, and she was subsequently shouted down. Only found a german source, sorry: http://www.silicon.de/41595329/ob-kandidatin-kritisiert-limux-projekt-in-muenchen/ http://www.silicon.de/41595329/ob-kandidatin-kritisiert-limu... Personally, I would never use OpenOffice or even Linux Desktop. They would have to pry my MacBook Pro from my cold, dead hands - and yes, MS Office on OSX is actually not that bad. At least not as bad as OpenOffice.

sergiosgc 13y ago

> (...) and to foster the local IT economy as opposed to sending money overseas. From a state angle, selling to the local economy is a huge money saver. I think the VAT in Germany is 19%. When buying locally, that is an immediate saving of 19%, as it gets collected in taxes immediately. If it is a local shop, and if it spends the money locally also, 19% of (a large portion of) the remainder gets taxed also at 19%. Through taxation, the government is suddenly getting a discount of 1/3, after looking at only two levels of capital circulation. Add in effects of reduced unemployment and other positive effects of economic activity, and suddenly it is an unbeatable proposition.

bosie 13y ago
Wouldn't this be a business-to-business deal and hence no VAT is applied?
- sergiosgc 13y ago
  Of course VAT is applied. Businesses pay VAT, just like everyone. The key to understanding VAT is to focus on the value-added part. Businesses pay VAT on their purchases, charge VAT to their customers in their sales, and get a payback from the government equal to the difference of the two values. They thus pay VAT on the value they add to the economic flow. Every participant on the economic flow of a good pays their share of VAT, the whole good gets taxed in. Companies and individuals aren't different, except that individual consumers have no one to charge VAT to. They are the end of the line for the good or service.