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"NONE have American born founders" Neither were they divisions of some foreign conglomerates. I think that is more relevant than the fact the founders were for

by fspeech 12y ago

"NONE have American born founders" Neither were they divisions of some foreign conglomerates. I think that is more relevant than the fact the founders were foreign born. Certainly you would think of Jerry Yang or Sergey Brin or Pierre Omidyar as American as any other. They are not foreigners just because they are foreign born.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
Correct. China is mostly a closed countries for Chinese only. As a foreigner, the glass ceiling is clearly visible. America in contrast is a country of naturalized immigrants as well as natural borns; as a result, many understand what it means to be outside China because of their dual cultural backgrounds...the same not being true in China. So who has a better chance in operating outside in developing countries? Its funny how China really tries to get, but can't really get, Africa, for example.
fspeech 12y ago
"Correct. China is mostly a closed countries for Chinese only. As a foreigner, the glass ceiling is clearly visible." Hmm I am curious if you actually have nonzero interest in naturalizing into Chinese citizenship. I think it is not impossible to do so and at least in the past the locals would be rather proud if you do have such an interest. Not that I think citizenship should be prerequisite for business success but I do believe it reasonable that you need to demonstrate that your loyalty lies with the locals before you are considered one of them. Naturalization into US citizenship does require a loyalty oath in case you don't know. (Seems like we are running into the limit of the nesting levels so I replied to GP instead)
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
It is not nesting limits, but the flame filters we are triggering. > Hmm I am curious if you actually have nonzero interest in naturalizing into Chinese citizenship. The chances of me even getting a green card are very low. It is almost unheard of for a foreigner to naturalize, and when it happens, almost the president has to intervene. Also, China doesn't support dual citizenship like the states does. So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship. BTW, plenty of Chinese business leaders (in China) are US citizens or US greencard holders. Many have exit plans for if things go badly in China (good guangxi doesn't always last forever), and they have their kids already in the states or Europe warming up houses for that possibility.
fspeech 12y ago
"Also, China doesn't support dual citizenship like the states does. So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship." That is incorrect. Becoming a US citizen means renouncing your native citizenship as well. The only exception is if you were born into dual citizenships in which case you don't need naturalization at all.
- Tloewald 12y ago
  The United States allows dual citizenship if you naturalize to a non-hostile foreign country without renouncing your US citizenship, but only because of a supreme court decision over US citizens who became Israel citizens. I am dual US/Australian via this route.
  - fspeech 12y ago
    What do you make of the naturalization oath? Namely: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; ..." It doesn't have anything to do with which country you are from.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      In general, supreme court > oath writers.
      - fspeech 12y ago
        I think there is a certain amount of cross-talk here. I get what you are saying about the oath but it is administered by Federal court judges so it is apparently not in conflict with the Supreme Court ruling. Secondly it is not what the Supreme Court said that matters here. By asking the naturalized citizens to take the oath it is entirely reasonable that their native governments construe the action as renouncing their original citizenship. It is literally what the oath says. I get that with the Supreme Court ruling it is possible for American citizens to obtain another citizenship without losing their US citizenship. I think that is a good thing in this increasingly globalized world and hopefully one day national borders will mean a lot less as it is in Europe today. However we were discussing what you said: "So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship." Does China actually enforce it by demanding proof or also just make you take an oath? I understand there may be little data to tell at this point. And when I said that US does the same I meant that the US make you take the oath to renounce your native citizenship.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
This isn't exactly correct, dual citizenship in the US is a bit weird, but you can totally naturalize into US citizenship without giving up your existing one (unless you are chinese, but that problem comes from China): > Based on the U.S. Department of State regulation on dual citizenship (7 FAM 1162), the Supreme Court of the United States has stated that dual citizenship is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both. The mere fact he asserts the rights of one citizenship does not without more mean that he renounces the other", (Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717) (1952). In Schneider v. Rusk 377 U.S. 163 (1964), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a naturalized U.S. citizen has the right to return to his native country and to resume his former citizenship, and also to remain a U.S. citizen even if he never returns to the United States. US citizens naturalizing out, on the other hand, can lose their citizenship: > The U.S. citizen may lose his dual citizenship by obtaining naturalization in a foreign state, taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or political subdivision thereof, or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state if this action was performed with the intention of renouncing U.S. citizenship.[27] But in practice they don't: > Current U.S. State Department rules presume that an individual does not intend to give up citizenship when performing one of the above potentially expatriating acts. If asked, the individual can always answer that they did not intend to give it up; this is sufficient to retain their citizenship.[38] Hence, the U.S. effectively allows citizens to acquire new citizenships while remaining a U.S. citizen, becoming a dual citizen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Dual_citizenship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#D...
fspeech 12y ago
This is how the US naturalization oath begins: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; ..." It is true that you have to renounce your US citizenship to a Consul for the US to consider you no longer a subject of its (taxation power :-). If a Chinese American travels to China using Chinese passport instead of a visa issued by the Chinese government he or she would not be able to obtain consular support if he/she runs into legal troubles. If he/she wants a visa from the Chinese government and consular support from the US embassy then he/she can't pretend to be a Chinese citizen any longer.

by fspeech 12y ago

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

Correct. China is mostly a closed countries for Chinese only. As a foreigner, the glass ceiling is clearly visible. America in contrast is a country of naturalized immigrants as well as natural borns; as a result, many understand what it means to be outside China because of their dual cultural backgrounds...the same not being true in China. So who has a better chance in operating outside in developing countries? Its funny how China really tries to get, but can't really get, Africa, for example.

fspeech 12y ago

"Correct. China is mostly a closed countries for Chinese only. As a foreigner, the glass ceiling is clearly visible." Hmm I am curious if you actually have nonzero interest in naturalizing into Chinese citizenship. I think it is not impossible to do so and at least in the past the locals would be rather proud if you do have such an interest. Not that I think citizenship should be prerequisite for business success but I do believe it reasonable that you need to demonstrate that your loyalty lies with the locals before you are considered one of them. Naturalization into US citizenship does require a loyalty oath in case you don't know. (Seems like we are running into the limit of the nesting levels so I replied to GP instead)

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

It is not nesting limits, but the flame filters we are triggering. > Hmm I am curious if you actually have nonzero interest in naturalizing into Chinese citizenship. The chances of me even getting a green card are very low. It is almost unheard of for a foreigner to naturalize, and when it happens, almost the president has to intervene. Also, China doesn't support dual citizenship like the states does. So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship. BTW, plenty of Chinese business leaders (in China) are US citizens or US greencard holders. Many have exit plans for if things go badly in China (good guangxi doesn't always last forever), and they have their kids already in the states or Europe warming up houses for that possibility.

fspeech 12y ago

"Also, China doesn't support dual citizenship like the states does. So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship." That is incorrect. Becoming a US citizen means renouncing your native citizenship as well. The only exception is if you were born into dual citizenships in which case you don't need naturalization at all.

Tloewald 12y ago
The United States allows dual citizenship if you naturalize to a non-hostile foreign country without renouncing your US citizenship, but only because of a supreme court decision over US citizens who became Israel citizens. I am dual US/Australian via this route.
- fspeech 12y ago
  What do you make of the naturalization oath? Namely: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; ..." It doesn't have anything to do with which country you are from.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    In general, supreme court > oath writers.
    - fspeech 12y ago
      I think there is a certain amount of cross-talk here. I get what you are saying about the oath but it is administered by Federal court judges so it is apparently not in conflict with the Supreme Court ruling. Secondly it is not what the Supreme Court said that matters here. By asking the naturalized citizens to take the oath it is entirely reasonable that their native governments construe the action as renouncing their original citizenship. It is literally what the oath says. I get that with the Supreme Court ruling it is possible for American citizens to obtain another citizenship without losing their US citizenship. I think that is a good thing in this increasingly globalized world and hopefully one day national borders will mean a lot less as it is in Europe today. However we were discussing what you said: "So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship." Does China actually enforce it by demanding proof or also just make you take an oath? I understand there may be little data to tell at this point. And when I said that US does the same I meant that the US make you take the oath to renounce your native citizenship.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

This isn't exactly correct, dual citizenship in the US is a bit weird, but you can totally naturalize into US citizenship without giving up your existing one (unless you are chinese, but that problem comes from China): > Based on the U.S. Department of State regulation on dual citizenship (7 FAM 1162), the Supreme Court of the United States has stated that dual citizenship is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both. The mere fact he asserts the rights of one citizenship does not without more mean that he renounces the other", (Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717) (1952). In Schneider v. Rusk 377 U.S. 163 (1964), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a naturalized U.S. citizen has the right to return to his native country and to resume his former citizenship, and also to remain a U.S. citizen even if he never returns to the United States. US citizens naturalizing out, on the other hand, can lose their citizenship: > The U.S. citizen may lose his dual citizenship by obtaining naturalization in a foreign state, taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or political subdivision thereof, or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state if this action was performed with the intention of renouncing U.S. citizenship.[27] But in practice they don't: > Current U.S. State Department rules presume that an individual does not intend to give up citizenship when performing one of the above potentially expatriating acts. If asked, the individual can always answer that they did not intend to give it up; this is sufficient to retain their citizenship.[38] Hence, the U.S. effectively allows citizens to acquire new citizenships while remaining a U.S. citizen, becoming a dual citizen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Dual_citizenship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#D...

fspeech 12y ago

This is how the US naturalization oath begins: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; ..." It is true that you have to renounce your US citizenship to a Consul for the US to consider you no longer a subject of its (taxation power :-). If a Chinese American travels to China using Chinese passport instead of a visa issued by the Chinese government he or she would not be able to obtain consular support if he/she runs into legal troubles. If he/she wants a visa from the Chinese government and consular support from the US embassy then he/she can't pretend to be a Chinese citizen any longer.