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Yes Google is a rather special case. It clearly has technological advantages and may have succeeded despite its clumsiness if Chinese regulations were different

by fspeech 12y ago

Yes Google is a rather special case. It clearly has technological advantages and may have succeeded despite its clumsiness if Chinese regulations were different. However that does not explain how others failed, like EBay or Yahoo. I showed clearly ownership restriction wasn't the reason. Local operational control was, in my opinion. I don't even see how this could be controversial. Jack Ma is one of China's richest man. So are the other Ma (of Tencent) and Li (of Baidu). Does anyone think hypothetical resounding successes of EBay/Google/Amazon etc could have similarly minted local billionaires? Why would the same incentives work in the US to create successful entrepreneurs but not in China? Tactically it may be true that stricter ethics rules make things harder. But that didn't stop businesses like Starbucks from succeeding eventually, because their business model can be transplanted. Alibaba didn't have success handed to it. Its initial B2B model was ho hum. It had to or did recreate itself, multiple times. Its Taobao was initially a loss leader with free listings. TMall was also not given a high chance of success. It had ferocious competitors. It created its own business models and executed well to ensure their success.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
Out of all the companies you listed, NONE have American born founders: Ebay (Iranian), Yahoo (Taiwan), Google (Russia, ok Page is born in Michigan). How many people who aren't born in China have been minted as billionaires at Chinese companies? Starbucks had plenty of problems with their Chinese partners; they worked hard to get to the point where they were actually allowed to run stores by themselves without a parasitic local partners, and I think this is only true in second tier cities right now.
- fspeech 12y ago
  US is a country of (relatively recent) immigrants and China isn't. How does this relate to the topic at hand? Many successful fast food companies use a franchise model. Starbucks is rather unique that it doesn't. I don't know enough to say whether their local partners are parasitic.
- fspeech 12y ago
  "NONE have American born founders" Neither were they divisions of some foreign conglomerates. I think that is more relevant than the fact the founders were foreign born. Certainly you would think of Jerry Yang or Sergey Brin or Pierre Omidyar as American as any other. They are not foreigners just because they are foreign born.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    Correct. China is mostly a closed countries for Chinese only. As a foreigner, the glass ceiling is clearly visible. America in contrast is a country of naturalized immigrants as well as natural borns; as a result, many understand what it means to be outside China because of their dual cultural backgrounds...the same not being true in China. So who has a better chance in operating outside in developing countries? Its funny how China really tries to get, but can't really get, Africa, for example.
  - fspeech 12y ago
    "Correct. China is mostly a closed countries for Chinese only. As a foreigner, the glass ceiling is clearly visible." Hmm I am curious if you actually have nonzero interest in naturalizing into Chinese citizenship. I think it is not impossible to do so and at least in the past the locals would be rather proud if you do have such an interest. Not that I think citizenship should be prerequisite for business success but I do believe it reasonable that you need to demonstrate that your loyalty lies with the locals before you are considered one of them. Naturalization into US citizenship does require a loyalty oath in case you don't know. (Seems like we are running into the limit of the nesting levels so I replied to GP instead)
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    It is not nesting limits, but the flame filters we are triggering. > Hmm I am curious if you actually have nonzero interest in naturalizing into Chinese citizenship. The chances of me even getting a green card are very low. It is almost unheard of for a foreigner to naturalize, and when it happens, almost the president has to intervene. Also, China doesn't support dual citizenship like the states does. So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship. BTW, plenty of Chinese business leaders (in China) are US citizens or US greencard holders. Many have exit plans for if things go badly in China (good guangxi doesn't always last forever), and they have their kids already in the states or Europe warming up houses for that possibility.

by fspeech 12y ago

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

Out of all the companies you listed, NONE have American born founders: Ebay (Iranian), Yahoo (Taiwan), Google (Russia, ok Page is born in Michigan). How many people who aren't born in China have been minted as billionaires at Chinese companies? Starbucks had plenty of problems with their Chinese partners; they worked hard to get to the point where they were actually allowed to run stores by themselves without a parasitic local partners, and I think this is only true in second tier cities right now.

fspeech 12y ago
US is a country of (relatively recent) immigrants and China isn't. How does this relate to the topic at hand? Many successful fast food companies use a franchise model. Starbucks is rather unique that it doesn't. I don't know enough to say whether their local partners are parasitic.
fspeech 12y ago
"NONE have American born founders" Neither were they divisions of some foreign conglomerates. I think that is more relevant than the fact the founders were foreign born. Certainly you would think of Jerry Yang or Sergey Brin or Pierre Omidyar as American as any other. They are not foreigners just because they are foreign born.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Correct. China is mostly a closed countries for Chinese only. As a foreigner, the glass ceiling is clearly visible. America in contrast is a country of naturalized immigrants as well as natural borns; as a result, many understand what it means to be outside China because of their dual cultural backgrounds...the same not being true in China. So who has a better chance in operating outside in developing countries? Its funny how China really tries to get, but can't really get, Africa, for example.
- fspeech 12y ago
  "Correct. China is mostly a closed countries for Chinese only. As a foreigner, the glass ceiling is clearly visible." Hmm I am curious if you actually have nonzero interest in naturalizing into Chinese citizenship. I think it is not impossible to do so and at least in the past the locals would be rather proud if you do have such an interest. Not that I think citizenship should be prerequisite for business success but I do believe it reasonable that you need to demonstrate that your loyalty lies with the locals before you are considered one of them. Naturalization into US citizenship does require a loyalty oath in case you don't know. (Seems like we are running into the limit of the nesting levels so I replied to GP instead)
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  It is not nesting limits, but the flame filters we are triggering. > Hmm I am curious if you actually have nonzero interest in naturalizing into Chinese citizenship. The chances of me even getting a green card are very low. It is almost unheard of for a foreigner to naturalize, and when it happens, almost the president has to intervene. Also, China doesn't support dual citizenship like the states does. So becoming a Chinese citizen means renouncing your US citizenship. BTW, plenty of Chinese business leaders (in China) are US citizens or US greencard holders. Many have exit plans for if things go badly in China (good guangxi doesn't always last forever), and they have their kids already in the states or Europe warming up houses for that possibility.