5 ms·

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a

by casca 12y ago

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study for The Knowledge and there is evidence[1] that they have increased brain size as a result of memorizing all that information. The other option for people wanting a car journey is the "mini-cab" which can be booked to collect from any specific location but must offer a fare in advance of the journey. In order to transport people for money, mini-cab drivers are licensed and have a background check done. Uber drivers in London must have the mini-cab license so this is a question around the black cab monopoly. As with any government-provided monopoly, the incumbents are keen to maintain the status quo while the newcomers are fighting for change. Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab companies and most importantly, passengers. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm

oneeyedpigeon 12y ago
To put that into context, there are 25,000 streets covered by The Knowledge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#The_Knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#...
- gadders 12y ago
  I had a neighbour that was doing the knowledge. We used to hear him practise in the back garden with his wife. Hearing her shout random routes at him like "Buckingham Palace to Bank Tube" and him spouting one road name after another was pretty amazing. If you're ever in London and you see a guy (or girl) on a bashed up moped with a clipboard strapped to the handlebars, they are learning their routes for The Knowledge.
  - bananas 12y ago
    Google is pretty good at that too and knows what the traffic is before you get there. It's impressive but no more impressive than navigating a 4 million line software product intuitively...
    - cjrp 12y ago
      Google isn't (yet) quite as good at predicting traffic though. For example, a cabby would know that if a Chelsea game's finishing at 5pm, he should avoid Stamford Bridge.
      - viraptor 12y ago
        Thanks, that's a great example of where the real-time data collection is not as good as the local knowledge! Unfortunately that depends on whether the driver cares about football (or similar events in the city). I hope that waze/google/other services will start including information like that in the future.
        cjrp 12y ago
        Absolutely, and I honestly don't think we're far away from Google or someone (...but probably Google) integrating all of this data. Times for football fixtures, events at the O2 and planned demonstrations are all accessible online, it's just a case of an automated system parsing them and deciding the impact.
      - bananas 12y ago
        TFL and AA road watch know that so there is no reason Google couldn't. It's all data - after all the cabby most likely got it from the same data through a different aggregation medium (radio/paper).
    - lttlrck 12y ago
      it's more like being able to rattle off the call graph for any given function, from memory.
return0 12y ago
But in 2014, there should be no need to make people memorize those thing to the risk of their heads exploding. Maybe if the Black Cabs had used their network to create an AI-powered optimal route-finding system, they wouldn't be afraid of competition.
- gadders 12y ago
  Ha. I'd be interested to see anyone manage that. On top of this, in central London it's pretty built up so SatNav doesn't always work in the canyons between buildings.
  - cjrp 12y ago
    Plus a SatNav won't know that at rush hour, a longer (distance-wise) route could be quicker in a black cab due to them being allowed to use bus lanes.
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      Well, that's a simple software problem with street definitions. Much simpler to fix than what amounts to implementing a GPS/pathfinding system inside someone's head for even one driver.
    - viraptor 12y ago
      Google maps already integrates with Uber. If they managed to get such connection, I'm not sure why a bigger black cab company operating in large cities couldn't get an agreement to include taxi/bus lanes on a separate app. Can't imagine Uber forced Google to cooperate with them...
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        Isn't Google -- through Google Ventures -- a significant investor in Uber? That kind of may give them a different set of considerations than "a bigger black cab company" would have.
jgrahamc 12y ago
One of the key benefits of The Knowledge is that I can jump in a black cab in London and say "Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" and have a driver who can instantly decide which way to go... 1. Without asking for any clarification 2. Without typing a bunch of stuff into a GPS device 3. And with knowledge of time/space specific optimizations Yes, black cabs are not cheap. You are getting a very specific service for that money.
- prof_hobart 12y ago
  What if you don't want to pay for that specific service? I got a taxi home (not in London) last week and the taxi driver used his sat nav to route me home. It didn't bother me in the slightest. Pretty much all I ask for in a taxi is get me from where I am to where I want to go, as quickly, cheaply and safely as possible. I'm not against people being licenced (that comes into the "safely" bit of my requirements), but if they can achieve the "quickly" bit just as easily with a free app on their smartphone as they could with 3 years worth of studying, allowing them to provide the service more cheaply, then I'm all for it.
  - barrkel 12y ago
    London doesn't have a grid structure. When there's a closure or delay on one route, it's not as simple as choosing the next road over. GPSes vary in their quality for routing diversions, but in a maze of one-way streets, turning restrictions and temporary / permanent rerouting in effect, a human is always going to be better. GPS maps are often out of date as London is constantly changing with rat-runs being closed down and new railway lines being built.
    - prof_hobart 12y ago
      And "The Knowledge" doesn't provide the ability for taxi drivers to psychopathically become aware of delays in traffic on a given road. I've never noticed any particular difference in the amount of time I've been stuck in traffic when travelling in black cabs or in taxis with drivers using a GPS.
  - 12y ago
buro9 12y ago
> Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab companies and most importantly, passengers. Except for all of the disabled ones, the wheelchair users, the ones who only wish to travel a very short distance and are unable to do so alone (the pregnant, mothers with pushchairs, the extremely inebriated, elderly, injured, etc). The monopoly and some privileges (bus lane access, pick up fares anywhere) is granted in exchange for a lot of obligations including accepting every fare in the centre of London even at a loss (of time spent against the profit of a fare), for fixed prices, and without excluding anyone of any ability. If Uber wish to gain the advantages that black cabs have, then they are free to accept the responsibilities and obligations that come with it. Which will of course mean changing their whole fleet to fully accessible vehicles and not allowing any driver to refuse a fare.
- msy 12y ago
  Black cabs have no obligation to pick up fares and will regularly refuse to take trips that they feel are inconvenient or they think will likely result in a return journey without a fare, even after you're in the cab. Want to go south and it's near the end of the driver's shift and he lives north? Back to waiting for you. This is in comparison to the NYC system where once you're in the cab, they're obligated to take you where you want to go.
  - sjtgraham 12y ago
    The law stipulates a Hackney Carriage, once hailed, must accept any fare within the Metropolitan Police Area. If refused one should report it to the Public Carriage Office. It might not sound like it is worth it, but the PCO takes trade regulation very seriously and it will have implications for the driver, especially after repeat complaints.
    - zimpenfish 12y ago
      Someone should tell them that because they really don't accept any fare, especially at night, and especially south of the river. But at least now I know what to quote when I'm complaining about them, ta.
calpaterson 12y ago
For anyone interested a documentary of the Knowledge test from the 1990s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvFKh_3evC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvFKh_3evC8 The documentary paints an interesting picture

by casca 12y ago

oneeyedpigeon 12y ago

To put that into context, there are 25,000 streets covered by The Knowledge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#The_Knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#...

gadders 12y ago
I had a neighbour that was doing the knowledge. We used to hear him practise in the back garden with his wife. Hearing her shout random routes at him like "Buckingham Palace to Bank Tube" and him spouting one road name after another was pretty amazing. If you're ever in London and you see a guy (or girl) on a bashed up moped with a clipboard strapped to the handlebars, they are learning their routes for The Knowledge.
- bananas 12y ago
  Google is pretty good at that too and knows what the traffic is before you get there. It's impressive but no more impressive than navigating a 4 million line software product intuitively...
  - cjrp 12y ago
    Google isn't (yet) quite as good at predicting traffic though. For example, a cabby would know that if a Chelsea game's finishing at 5pm, he should avoid Stamford Bridge.
    - viraptor 12y ago
      Thanks, that's a great example of where the real-time data collection is not as good as the local knowledge! Unfortunately that depends on whether the driver cares about football (or similar events in the city). I hope that waze/google/other services will start including information like that in the future.
      - cjrp 12y ago
        Absolutely, and I honestly don't think we're far away from Google or someone (...but probably Google) integrating all of this data. Times for football fixtures, events at the O2 and planned demonstrations are all accessible online, it's just a case of an automated system parsing them and deciding the impact.
    - bananas 12y ago
      TFL and AA road watch know that so there is no reason Google couldn't. It's all data - after all the cabby most likely got it from the same data through a different aggregation medium (radio/paper).
  - lttlrck 12y ago
    it's more like being able to rattle off the call graph for any given function, from memory.

return0 12y ago

But in 2014, there should be no need to make people memorize those thing to the risk of their heads exploding. Maybe if the Black Cabs had used their network to create an AI-powered optimal route-finding system, they wouldn't be afraid of competition.

gadders 12y ago
Ha. I'd be interested to see anyone manage that. On top of this, in central London it's pretty built up so SatNav doesn't always work in the canyons between buildings.
- cjrp 12y ago
  Plus a SatNav won't know that at rush hour, a longer (distance-wise) route could be quicker in a black cab due to them being allowed to use bus lanes.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Well, that's a simple software problem with street definitions. Much simpler to fix than what amounts to implementing a GPS/pathfinding system inside someone's head for even one driver.
  - viraptor 12y ago
    Google maps already integrates with Uber. If they managed to get such connection, I'm not sure why a bigger black cab company operating in large cities couldn't get an agreement to include taxi/bus lanes on a separate app. Can't imagine Uber forced Google to cooperate with them...
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      Isn't Google -- through Google Ventures -- a significant investor in Uber? That kind of may give them a different set of considerations than "a bigger black cab company" would have.

jgrahamc 12y ago

One of the key benefits of The Knowledge is that I can jump in a black cab in London and say "Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" and have a driver who can instantly decide which way to go... 1. Without asking for any clarification 2. Without typing a bunch of stuff into a GPS device 3. And with knowledge of time/space specific optimizations Yes, black cabs are not cheap. You are getting a very specific service for that money.

prof_hobart 12y ago
What if you don't want to pay for that specific service? I got a taxi home (not in London) last week and the taxi driver used his sat nav to route me home. It didn't bother me in the slightest. Pretty much all I ask for in a taxi is get me from where I am to where I want to go, as quickly, cheaply and safely as possible. I'm not against people being licenced (that comes into the "safely" bit of my requirements), but if they can achieve the "quickly" bit just as easily with a free app on their smartphone as they could with 3 years worth of studying, allowing them to provide the service more cheaply, then I'm all for it.
- barrkel 12y ago
  London doesn't have a grid structure. When there's a closure or delay on one route, it's not as simple as choosing the next road over. GPSes vary in their quality for routing diversions, but in a maze of one-way streets, turning restrictions and temporary / permanent rerouting in effect, a human is always going to be better. GPS maps are often out of date as London is constantly changing with rat-runs being closed down and new railway lines being built.
  - prof_hobart 12y ago
    And "The Knowledge" doesn't provide the ability for taxi drivers to psychopathically become aware of delays in traffic on a given road. I've never noticed any particular difference in the amount of time I've been stuck in traffic when travelling in black cabs or in taxis with drivers using a GPS.
- 12y ago

buro9 12y ago

> Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab companies and most importantly, passengers. Except for all of the disabled ones, the wheelchair users, the ones who only wish to travel a very short distance and are unable to do so alone (the pregnant, mothers with pushchairs, the extremely inebriated, elderly, injured, etc). The monopoly and some privileges (bus lane access, pick up fares anywhere) is granted in exchange for a lot of obligations including accepting every fare in the centre of London even at a loss (of time spent against the profit of a fare), for fixed prices, and without excluding anyone of any ability. If Uber wish to gain the advantages that black cabs have, then they are free to accept the responsibilities and obligations that come with it. Which will of course mean changing their whole fleet to fully accessible vehicles and not allowing any driver to refuse a fare.

msy 12y ago
Black cabs have no obligation to pick up fares and will regularly refuse to take trips that they feel are inconvenient or they think will likely result in a return journey without a fare, even after you're in the cab. Want to go south and it's near the end of the driver's shift and he lives north? Back to waiting for you. This is in comparison to the NYC system where once you're in the cab, they're obligated to take you where you want to go.
- sjtgraham 12y ago
  The law stipulates a Hackney Carriage, once hailed, must accept any fare within the Metropolitan Police Area. If refused one should report it to the Public Carriage Office. It might not sound like it is worth it, but the PCO takes trade regulation very seriously and it will have implications for the driver, especially after repeat complaints.
  - zimpenfish 12y ago
    Someone should tell them that because they really don't accept any fare, especially at night, and especially south of the river. But at least now I know what to quote when I'm complaining about them, ta.

calpaterson 12y ago

For anyone interested a documentary of the Knowledge test from the 1990s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvFKh_3evC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvFKh_3evC8 The documentary paints an interesting picture