12 ms·

How to create good outcomes when negotiating

185 points by katm 12y ago

Spearchucker 12y ago
Not sure it's as profound to others as it was for me, but my biggest lesson in negotiation was the idea of negotiating in bulk. If, say, there are 20 points to work through, the idea is to know before the negotiation starts which of them you're going to insist on, which you're willing to barter for, and which you're ok to lose (i.e. barter with). As opposed to fighting through each of the 20 items one by one...
- daegloe 12y ago
  You're right about knowing where you stand on each item going into the negotiation. It's important to point out, however, that savvy corporate negotiators will insist on stepping through one item at a time, taking a strong position on most and offering up only a token gesture or two in order to disguise their true interests, build leverage and the appearance of good faith.
  - sparky_z 12y ago
    I don't think he means "tell the other party where your priorities lie". I think he means "don't negotiate and finalize each point one at a time" because if you do that, then you can't give on something you don't care about in order to get more of something you do care about. I remember getting that exact same insight from a previous HN thread.
calibraxis 12y ago
Good points, but wish the author pointed to the enormous, readable lit. (Few people I know have read things like "Getting to Yes.".) People often are ideologically blind to fundamental antagonisms in various relationships. (For example, market interactions is a big one.) I've had entirely good deals with people who've tried to (if you'll excuse my language) fuck me over, by silently changing little things in PDF contracts, benefiting on the X% of people not paranoid enough to run diffs. Some argue, "How can you make a good deal with someone who just tried screwing you over?" Frankly, most deals are that way. Landlords try to; you buy products from companies who routinely lie to you (and even try to make you feel miserable about yourself); etc. And if you're a bit privileged, you may be lucky enough to be able to hit back hard at some of these people.
- akharris 12y ago
  I hear you, but most of the literature that I've seen is about specific tactics for getting the most favorable outcome. That's an important next step, but a lot of founders I meet don't even have the foundation.
- nutjob2 12y ago
  I don't believe in dirty tricks like you describe, but it's my solemn belief that you're not negotiating unless your goal is to "fuck the other person over," or aim for an unreasonably good deal. Whether you get it or not is an entirely different matter, but that should be the starting point. You'll never get a great deal unless you try for it, or the guy you're negotiating with is an idiot (for which there is there is also a simple strategy). I don't know why you think landlords try to fuck people over. I've been on both sides of that negotiation and it's almost entirely market driven. You must live in NYC, or maybe moved to SF in the last couple of years, and have encountered landlords who know they have you over a barrel.
  - josephlord 12y ago
    Many negotiations aren't zero sum (just about price). The skilled negotiator is able to trade things that they are less concerned about for things that they are more concerned about. Even in a landlord negotiation there might be conditions around the original condition of the property or the timing of the transaction that are ancillary to the linear price dimension and may give room for both sides to win.
johnrob 12y ago
This list seems to read like: "be honest, clear, and thorough". While this makes you a straight shooter, I don't see how you'll get anything better than what's fair using these tactics (and if fair is the end goal then I've been over estimating the challenge of negotiation).
- stronglikedan 12y ago
  There's a saying that goes something like "a successful negotiation is one where both parties feel like they're getting the better deal". I think you are correct. You typically don't have to negotiate much for a fair deal.
  - paulbaumgart 12y ago
    If you're negotiating terms for a relationship that's intended to be more than a one-off transaction, it's in both parties' interest that the outcome be fair. In the modern business world, truly one-off transactions are very, very rare.
- dahart 12y ago
  Not sure if I'm reading this right, but you have been thinking of negotiating as ensuring you beat the other party and your outcome is unfair in your favor? There is something not good enough about being a straight shooter who's honest, clear, and thorough? Are you trolling or being serious?
  - johnrob 12y ago
    If you are evaluating negotiation as a stand alone skill I think you have to judge by how far in your favor the result is. It's entirely possible that your bigger picture strategy leads you to intentionally leave "meat on the bone", but doing so doesn't mean you've become a great negotiator. It looks like I misread the intention of the article: the title says "How to create good outcomes when negotiating", but I somehow misinterpreted that to read something like "How to be a better negotiator". It's probably the fault of the first paragraph: When I watch my nieces and nephew negotiating with my siblings, I'm consistently amazed at how good they are. ... they win more frequently than they lose.
joshuaheard 12y ago
I wrote an article on negotiation when I was a trial attorney that is applicable to most situations. "Ten Rules of Negotiation" https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=641BD45A41B1BD6C!645&authkey=!AGgpWzijeR0SK0Q&ithint=file%2c.PDF https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=641BD45A41B1BD6C!645&a...
- k0mplex 12y ago
  This is excellent. You should put it on a blog.
  - logicallee 12y ago
    Yes, this is very very good. I would enjoy clarification on the difference between ridiculous and comical numbers, as for me these words are largely synonymns. I'm referring to the section that says: "If you are somehow forced to give the first number, make it ridiculous, but not comical. For instance, double your number, but do not ask for a gazillion dollars or some completely off the wall number that will show you are not serious. Welcome an outrageous reaction to your ridiculous number, then smile and shrug. The first offer may be zero, the advertised price, or an “Anchor” number." If someone makes a starting bid of "zero", for example, that would be both ridiculous/comical. (As why would the 'seller' even show up to hear bids of zero.) So more examples here or another way of putting the same thing would be helpful. (A doubled price doesn't strike me as "ridiculous" so much as uninformed or unreasonable.) I realize author says that we shouldn't give a number at all.
    - avmich 12y ago
      I suspect this is good in a certain cultural environment - say, in US. Otherwise those advices could be interpreted as strange. And when background is taken into account, it becomes more similar to a protocol.
    - EC1 12y ago
      It's always easier to negotiate downward than it is upward. I always throw out ridiculous hourly rates that always get cut in half or more, but it's still more than I would make regularly.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
baghali 12y ago
"Begin with the end in mind" -- Stephen Covey (Habit 2, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People) Above rule has helped me a lot throughout my personal and professional life.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
Sometimes the way to go is "don't" : http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/03/13/lost-faculty-job-offer-raises-questions-about-negotiation-strategy http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/03/13/lost-faculty-j...
- andrewkreid 12y ago
  I'm guessing tenure-track positions in the Philosophy faculty are very much a buyer's market. The candidate didn't seem to appreciate this.
dethstar 12y ago
> Do not leave anything to ambiguity - Turns out this is one of the hardest things to do, especially in "friendly" negotiations with investors you know or friends you might be hiring. Don't assume that something you think is implied is agreed upon. Every point that you negotiate should be made explicitly. This wouldve saved me a lot. I just did an internship that was supposed to be paid, or at least thats what i understood out of my talk with the person in charge of accepting me for it. Turns out when i asked for my money i got something along the lines of "well i said we'd see if i wanted to pay you or not" Edit: and there was no contract or anything written so i guess im pretty much screwed.
- troels 12y ago
  Edit: and there was no contract or anything written so i guess im pretty much screwed. Depends on your jurisdiction. Depending on how long you worked and how vindictive you feel, perhaps talk to a union rep or a lawyer. Even if you didn't explicitly agree to a particular pay, it may be assumed legally that you get some sort of pay for the job you performed.
- lmartel 12y ago
  Assuming you're in the US, there are very strict federal laws about what an unpaid intern is allowed to do (from [1]): 1. Interns cannot displace regular employees. 2. Interns are not guaranteed a job at the end of the internship. 3. The employer and the intern(s) understand that the interns are not entitled to wages during the internship period. 4. Interns must receive training from the company, even if it somewhat impedes on the work of the organization. 5. Interns must get hands-on experience with equipment and processes used in the industry. 6. Interns' training must primarily benefit them, not the company. If you were under the impression you'd be paid, they're already in violation of the law (#3). Most likely your internship violated a few other provisions as well; an unpaid internship basically has to be "science camp" to be legal, little productive work can be produced except by accident. [1] http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm Edit: And, please do pursue legal action if you have the time and energy to do so, or refer the case to someone who does. Illegal unpaid internships are exploitative and industries reliant on them end up locking out everyone who can't afford to work for free (anyone but the children of the wealthy).
zhte415 12y ago
On negotiation in general, ff you have a partner or group to practice with, or as a regular small team exercise, I highly recommend Harvard's materials from their Program on Negotiation. The material is inexpensive and can be previewed / downloaded, in full, for free (the instructor pack). Dedicate more time to the de-briefing than the exercise, as that is where the learnings are. http://www.pon.harvard.edu/store/ http://www.pon.harvard.edu/store/
- sogen 12y ago
  Hi, can you share the link? Couldn't find it on the sitemap, and search results don't show the Instructor Pack. Thanks
  - zhte415 12y ago
    Click through to one of the topics/exercises that you find interesting. An exercise can be added to your basket/cart (registration is necessary at this point, but no fee is involved for registering).
rdl 12y ago
These seem helpful, particularly in multi-round negotiations (which is pretty much anything in silicon valley, but actually isn't a great model for a lot of transactions in the wider world, unfortunately), but for me, the single most important key to getting good outcomes from negotiations is pretty simple: BATNA. i.e. know what your best alternative to a negotiated agreement is before starting negotiations, and be able to walk away. As long as I have that, it's easy to be dispassionate and rational (and thus polite, honest, thorough, good at documentation, etc.)
- amirmc 12y ago
  > "... and be able to walk away." I've always found this to be the trickiest, both in terms of defining it (in advance of a negotiation) and being willing to stick to it (during the discussion). Sometimes understanding that the BATNA is just the time saved can be helpful. NB It's related to other advice that 'deals exist in order to fall through'.
fluential 12y ago
One of the best salary negotiation articles I've read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3501366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3501366
- gatehouse 12y ago
  I liked that post and also this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km2Hd_xgo9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km2Hd_xgo9Q
tbrownaw 12y ago
The web filter here at work has that blocked as a gambling site.

185 points by katm 12y ago

Not sure it's as profound to others as it was for me, but my biggest lesson in negotiation was the idea of negotiating in bulk. If, say, there are 20 points to work through, the idea is to know before the negotiation starts which of them you're going to insist on, which you're willing to barter for, and which you're ok to lose (i.e. barter with). As opposed to fighting through each of the 20 items one by one...

daegloe 12y ago
You're right about knowing where you stand on each item going into the negotiation. It's important to point out, however, that savvy corporate negotiators will insist on stepping through one item at a time, taking a strong position on most and offering up only a token gesture or two in order to disguise their true interests, build leverage and the appearance of good faith.
- sparky_z 12y ago
  I don't think he means "tell the other party where your priorities lie". I think he means "don't negotiate and finalize each point one at a time" because if you do that, then you can't give on something you don't care about in order to get more of something you do care about. I remember getting that exact same insight from a previous HN thread.

calibraxis 12y ago

Good points, but wish the author pointed to the enormous, readable lit. (Few people I know have read things like "Getting to Yes.".) People often are ideologically blind to fundamental antagonisms in various relationships. (For example, market interactions is a big one.) I've had entirely good deals with people who've tried to (if you'll excuse my language) fuck me over, by silently changing little things in PDF contracts, benefiting on the X% of people not paranoid enough to run diffs. Some argue, "How can you make a good deal with someone who just tried screwing you over?" Frankly, most deals are that way. Landlords try to; you buy products from companies who routinely lie to you (and even try to make you feel miserable about yourself); etc. And if you're a bit privileged, you may be lucky enough to be able to hit back hard at some of these people.

akharris 12y ago
I hear you, but most of the literature that I've seen is about specific tactics for getting the most favorable outcome. That's an important next step, but a lot of founders I meet don't even have the foundation.
nutjob2 12y ago
I don't believe in dirty tricks like you describe, but it's my solemn belief that you're not negotiating unless your goal is to "fuck the other person over," or aim for an unreasonably good deal. Whether you get it or not is an entirely different matter, but that should be the starting point. You'll never get a great deal unless you try for it, or the guy you're negotiating with is an idiot (for which there is there is also a simple strategy). I don't know why you think landlords try to fuck people over. I've been on both sides of that negotiation and it's almost entirely market driven. You must live in NYC, or maybe moved to SF in the last couple of years, and have encountered landlords who know they have you over a barrel.
- josephlord 12y ago
  Many negotiations aren't zero sum (just about price). The skilled negotiator is able to trade things that they are less concerned about for things that they are more concerned about. Even in a landlord negotiation there might be conditions around the original condition of the property or the timing of the transaction that are ancillary to the linear price dimension and may give room for both sides to win.

johnrob 12y ago

This list seems to read like: "be honest, clear, and thorough". While this makes you a straight shooter, I don't see how you'll get anything better than what's fair using these tactics (and if fair is the end goal then I've been over estimating the challenge of negotiation).

stronglikedan 12y ago
There's a saying that goes something like "a successful negotiation is one where both parties feel like they're getting the better deal". I think you are correct. You typically don't have to negotiate much for a fair deal.
- paulbaumgart 12y ago
  If you're negotiating terms for a relationship that's intended to be more than a one-off transaction, it's in both parties' interest that the outcome be fair. In the modern business world, truly one-off transactions are very, very rare.
dahart 12y ago
Not sure if I'm reading this right, but you have been thinking of negotiating as ensuring you beat the other party and your outcome is unfair in your favor? There is something not good enough about being a straight shooter who's honest, clear, and thorough? Are you trolling or being serious?
- johnrob 12y ago
  If you are evaluating negotiation as a stand alone skill I think you have to judge by how far in your favor the result is. It's entirely possible that your bigger picture strategy leads you to intentionally leave "meat on the bone", but doing so doesn't mean you've become a great negotiator. It looks like I misread the intention of the article: the title says "How to create good outcomes when negotiating", but I somehow misinterpreted that to read something like "How to be a better negotiator". It's probably the fault of the first paragraph: When I watch my nieces and nephew negotiating with my siblings, I'm consistently amazed at how good they are. ... they win more frequently than they lose.

joshuaheard 12y ago

I wrote an article on negotiation when I was a trial attorney that is applicable to most situations. "Ten Rules of Negotiation" https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=641BD45A41B1BD6C!645&authkey=!AGgpWzijeR0SK0Q&ithint=file%2c.PDF https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=641BD45A41B1BD6C!645&a...

k0mplex 12y ago
This is excellent. You should put it on a blog.
- logicallee 12y ago
  Yes, this is very very good. I would enjoy clarification on the difference between ridiculous and comical numbers, as for me these words are largely synonymns. I'm referring to the section that says: "If you are somehow forced to give the first number, make it ridiculous, but not comical. For instance, double your number, but do not ask for a gazillion dollars or some completely off the wall number that will show you are not serious. Welcome an outrageous reaction to your ridiculous number, then smile and shrug. The first offer may be zero, the advertised price, or an “Anchor” number." If someone makes a starting bid of "zero", for example, that would be both ridiculous/comical. (As why would the 'seller' even show up to hear bids of zero.) So more examples here or another way of putting the same thing would be helpful. (A doubled price doesn't strike me as "ridiculous" so much as uninformed or unreasonable.) I realize author says that we shouldn't give a number at all.
  - avmich 12y ago
    I suspect this is good in a certain cultural environment - say, in US. Otherwise those advices could be interpreted as strange. And when background is taken into account, it becomes more similar to a protocol.
  - EC1 12y ago
    It's always easier to negotiate downward than it is upward. I always throw out ridiculous hourly rates that always get cut in half or more, but it's still more than I would make regularly.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

baghali 12y ago

"Begin with the end in mind" -- Stephen Covey (Habit 2, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People) Above rule has helped me a lot throughout my personal and professional life.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago

Sometimes the way to go is "don't" : http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/03/13/lost-faculty-job-offer-raises-questions-about-negotiation-strategy http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/03/13/lost-faculty-j...

andrewkreid 12y ago
I'm guessing tenure-track positions in the Philosophy faculty are very much a buyer's market. The candidate didn't seem to appreciate this.

dethstar 12y ago

> Do not leave anything to ambiguity - Turns out this is one of the hardest things to do, especially in "friendly" negotiations with investors you know or friends you might be hiring. Don't assume that something you think is implied is agreed upon. Every point that you negotiate should be made explicitly. This wouldve saved me a lot. I just did an internship that was supposed to be paid, or at least thats what i understood out of my talk with the person in charge of accepting me for it. Turns out when i asked for my money i got something along the lines of "well i said we'd see if i wanted to pay you or not" Edit: and there was no contract or anything written so i guess im pretty much screwed.

troels 12y ago
Edit: and there was no contract or anything written so i guess im pretty much screwed. Depends on your jurisdiction. Depending on how long you worked and how vindictive you feel, perhaps talk to a union rep or a lawyer. Even if you didn't explicitly agree to a particular pay, it may be assumed legally that you get some sort of pay for the job you performed.
lmartel 12y ago
Assuming you're in the US, there are very strict federal laws about what an unpaid intern is allowed to do (from [1]): 1. Interns cannot displace regular employees. 2. Interns are not guaranteed a job at the end of the internship. 3. The employer and the intern(s) understand that the interns are not entitled to wages during the internship period. 4. Interns must receive training from the company, even if it somewhat impedes on the work of the organization. 5. Interns must get hands-on experience with equipment and processes used in the industry. 6. Interns' training must primarily benefit them, not the company. If you were under the impression you'd be paid, they're already in violation of the law (#3). Most likely your internship violated a few other provisions as well; an unpaid internship basically has to be "science camp" to be legal, little productive work can be produced except by accident. [1] http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm Edit: And, please do pursue legal action if you have the time and energy to do so, or refer the case to someone who does. Illegal unpaid internships are exploitative and industries reliant on them end up locking out everyone who can't afford to work for free (anyone but the children of the wealthy).

zhte415 12y ago

On negotiation in general, ff you have a partner or group to practice with, or as a regular small team exercise, I highly recommend Harvard's materials from their Program on Negotiation. The material is inexpensive and can be previewed / downloaded, in full, for free (the instructor pack). Dedicate more time to the de-briefing than the exercise, as that is where the learnings are. http://www.pon.harvard.edu/store/ http://www.pon.harvard.edu/store/

sogen 12y ago
Hi, can you share the link? Couldn't find it on the sitemap, and search results don't show the Instructor Pack. Thanks
- zhte415 12y ago
  Click through to one of the topics/exercises that you find interesting. An exercise can be added to your basket/cart (registration is necessary at this point, but no fee is involved for registering).

rdl 12y ago

These seem helpful, particularly in multi-round negotiations (which is pretty much anything in silicon valley, but actually isn't a great model for a lot of transactions in the wider world, unfortunately), but for me, the single most important key to getting good outcomes from negotiations is pretty simple: BATNA. i.e. know what your best alternative to a negotiated agreement is before starting negotiations, and be able to walk away. As long as I have that, it's easy to be dispassionate and rational (and thus polite, honest, thorough, good at documentation, etc.)

amirmc 12y ago
> "... and be able to walk away." I've always found this to be the trickiest, both in terms of defining it (in advance of a negotiation) and being willing to stick to it (during the discussion). Sometimes understanding that the BATNA is just the time saved can be helpful. NB It's related to other advice that 'deals exist in order to fall through'.

fluential 12y ago

One of the best salary negotiation articles I've read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3501366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3501366

gatehouse 12y ago
I liked that post and also this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km2Hd_xgo9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km2Hd_xgo9Q

tbrownaw 12y ago

The web filter here at work has that blocked as a gambling site.