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> [...]we need to remember that (hubris aside) what we do everyday, even if it's just a side project we did for fun one evening, has the potential to change the

by atmosx 13y ago

> [...]we need to remember that (hubris aside) what we do everyday, even if it's just a side project we did for fun one evening, has the potential to change the world in an instant[...] Really? So '2048' changed the world. I have this feeling that developers change the world more often than Cartoon/TV-heros save thew world these days. How many apps away from world peace?! ps. Developers are the only group of people who are so disillusioned to collectively think that their products change the world. That Steve Jobs destroyed 3 generations with 1 phrase. NOTE: nothing wrong with the app-creator. I'm really happy for him, it's just that every time I read about a developer who changed the world (writing an application) I wanna burn my eyes on a brazier.

L_Rahman 13y ago
This is slightly unfair. Not everything that qualifies for the phrase "changed the world" needs to solve a significant problem like poverty, health or hunger. Sometimes just being present in the minds of a lot of people is sufficient to qualify. 2048 first took over HN for a entire month. I'd open HN every day anticipating a different port. Then it went mainstream and has since been played potentially many thousands even millions of minutes. I think that qualifies as changing the world in a tiny way. Don't you?
- watwut 13y ago
  What exactly is the changed thing? World before and world after seem exactly the same to me. Instead of talking and cloning flappy bird, people talk about and clone 2048. Even before, people played angry birds and before other game, but I admit they did not cloned them that much - but that change came with flappy jam.
  - shrikrishna 13y ago
    I can't speak for others, but for me, this is how 20148 changed my world I realized, when I played 2048, that I could have built it too. This was enlightening because I realized we were confined by the limitations we place on ourselves. It changed my view of the world, at least, and hopefully of some more developers like me.
pdeuchler 13y ago
Touché. But don't worry, I've been watching Silicon Valley as well (great show). Please note I'm not saying this was some sort of amazing act of altruism, or that Gabriele has "redefined a paradigm". But the fact remains that millions (probably?) have dedicated a portion of their daily lives to this game, and that, by definition changes things within the world we live in. I don't mean to cause offense, but I happen to think that your reaction is more of a protest that our world is now at a point where change does happen through seemingly small, insignificant, passing fancies. And while I might tend to agree with you that maybe we shouldn't be so obsessed with such things, the reality is that we are. To ignore this fact would be worse than elevating it to saying that "2048 changed the world forever, for the good of all mankind". (Which is what I believe you think I'm saying)
- atmosx 13y ago
  Sorry but changing the world is a phrase open to interpretation. To me sounds extremely pretentious as I don't have any software developer in that list. When you mention people who change the world I picture Mandela, King, Ghandi and other political leaders who made their lives and the lives of their societies better. A piece of software can not achieve something of similar scale and importance because... There's nothing like an idea that becomes a movement. I don't want to start a flame and I feel that this conversation is taking the wrong turn so I won't post other replies. Anyway, nothing personal against you or the dev. Best of luck with everything
  - TrevorJ 13y ago
    Humanitarians change the world but so do inventors. I would argue that Edison, Bell, Ford and the like all changed the world significantly. Did they change it for the better? Who is to say? Mandela, King and Ghandi certainly were overt in their motives to change the world for the better, so in many ways they may be more visible targets, but Bill Gates, Tim Berners-Lee, and the whole current raft of inventors of Twitter, Facebook, etc. have certainly changed the world.
  - vjj 13y ago
    Only technology changes the world. Without technology we would still live in the stone age. Politicians don't matter. Nothing grand in a hunter-gatherer band leader ordering a fight with another band.
vvvv 13y ago
I agree. In the realm of games, Starcraft and Counter Strike changed the world, largely contributing to the creation of a new industry, where e-sports professionals can make a living playing games. 2048, while a great creation, has not changed the world in any significant way.
- Swizec 13y ago
  > has not changed the world in any significant way Adding the "in any significant way" qualifier essentially means you agree that 2048 changed the world.
  - john_fushi 13y ago
    I guess it has to be implicitly added as soon as we speak about changing the world. At some level everything change the world and then the expression loses its meaning.
  - magpi3 13y ago
    If I pick up a stone and move it six inches I have changed the world. Some kind of qualifier is necessary for a phrase that vague.
TrevorJ 13y ago
Developers are most certainly not the only group of people who suffer from this. I also think that there's actually some truth in feeling like you can change the world through code. There have been a huge number of code projects that have impacted out culture a whole lot over the last 20 years and in many ways they've been by far the most visible cultural lampposts.
jacobolus 13y ago
Quick note: you mean deluded, not disillusioned. (Disillusion is the disappointment/cynicism/&c. you experience when you find out that you used to be deluded.)
- atmosx 13y ago
  Yes, right.
frogpelt 13y ago
When 23 million people are talking about your little weekend project, you have changed the world. Maybe your definition of 'change the world' is too stringent. Squeezable ketchup bottles changed the world too. Instead of being so uptight about how people use the phrase why you don't you start trying to create your own impact?
- tensor 13y ago
  Instead of being obsessed with entertainment and other forms of self gratification, it would be nice if people focused on important problems with actual historical consequence.
  - IneffablePigeon 13y ago
    So playing and talking about a game means you never focus on important problems?
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    What if, 50 years from now, game design textbooks talk about 2048 and how it became a near instant hit in the early 2000s?
  - chc 13y ago
    So, instead of engaging in some harmless recreation, you reckon it's morally superior to go on Hacker News and chastise people for engaging in harmless recreation? I think instead of being obsessed with criticizing others, it would be nice if people focused on just about anything else in the world. Games are not the loftiest goal in the world, but they do make people happy and engage their minds. Not everyone is going to cure cancer, and it is not reasonable to criticize them for not being that person. Yes, curing cancer would be grand, but we need plumbers too. Just because something isn't historically significant doesn't mean it isn't significant.
    - tensor 13y ago
      I'm not criticizing them for what they do, I'm criticizing them for the whole wooo I'm changing the world arrogance. Take it down a notch and get some perspective.
jodrellblank 13y ago
I have this feeling that developers change the world more often than Cartoon/TV-heros save thew world these days. It's probably correct. How many fictional heroes are there, compared to how many real world developers? ps. Developers are the only group of people who are so disillusioned to collectively think that their products change the world. Lots of non-developers think their efforts can change the world: http://right-brain-law.blogspot.com/2013/07/i-went-to-law-school-to-change-world.html http://right-brain-law.blogspot.com/2013/07/i-went-to-law-sc... http://admissions.uoregon.edu/majors/political%20science http://admissions.uoregon.edu/majors/political%20science "Get Ready to Change the World" http://sydney.edu.au/arts/donors/change_world.shtml http://sydney.edu.au/arts/donors/change_world.shtml "10 ways an arts degree can change the world" Do you have a real point to go with the bitter cynicism?
- atmosx 13y ago
  No. Not at the same %: Just take a look at how many startups are deliberately stating to change the world. The claim is pretentious and false: it gives a sense of virtue which is absolutely not there. I'm not referring to the author of minor projects, I'm referring to Jobs, Gates, Zuckerberg, as well. People that changed the world range from M. L. King, to Ghandi and N. Mandela with numerous others in between. To me is disrespectful to those who gave their lives in order to change the world to make such a claim while becoming a millionaire in the process, sitting on a cosy sofa behind a computer screen. Developers are creating technologies (from Bitcoin to OpenGPG). These are tools which can be used for good or bad (surveillance). Software doesn't take the streets, nor will pass legislations through parliaments. So it might change some aspects of every day life, but meaningful changes do not happen using iPhones: Syndications in China are illegal. And there's no technology (Tor, Bitcoin, OTR, GPG, Twitter, etc) that will make syndications legal. Only people can do that and it's not an easy and peaceful process. The world changes when ideas turn into social/political movements and then legislation are passed. Usually many people die in between. So if for you Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King and StartupXYZ chasing VPs are the same thing, then we have different values, views and not much to discuss.
- epo 13y ago
  He isn't being cynical, he is reacting to pretentiousness and pomposity, and quite rightly too. And of course developers do not have a monopoly of such self aggrandisment.

by atmosx 13y ago

L_Rahman 13y ago

This is slightly unfair. Not everything that qualifies for the phrase "changed the world" needs to solve a significant problem like poverty, health or hunger. Sometimes just being present in the minds of a lot of people is sufficient to qualify. 2048 first took over HN for a entire month. I'd open HN every day anticipating a different port. Then it went mainstream and has since been played potentially many thousands even millions of minutes. I think that qualifies as changing the world in a tiny way. Don't you?

watwut 13y ago
What exactly is the changed thing? World before and world after seem exactly the same to me. Instead of talking and cloning flappy bird, people talk about and clone 2048. Even before, people played angry birds and before other game, but I admit they did not cloned them that much - but that change came with flappy jam.
- shrikrishna 13y ago
  I can't speak for others, but for me, this is how 20148 changed my world I realized, when I played 2048, that I could have built it too. This was enlightening because I realized we were confined by the limitations we place on ourselves. It changed my view of the world, at least, and hopefully of some more developers like me.

pdeuchler 13y ago

Touché. But don't worry, I've been watching Silicon Valley as well (great show). Please note I'm not saying this was some sort of amazing act of altruism, or that Gabriele has "redefined a paradigm". But the fact remains that millions (probably?) have dedicated a portion of their daily lives to this game, and that, by definition changes things within the world we live in. I don't mean to cause offense, but I happen to think that your reaction is more of a protest that our world is now at a point where change does happen through seemingly small, insignificant, passing fancies. And while I might tend to agree with you that maybe we shouldn't be so obsessed with such things, the reality is that we are. To ignore this fact would be worse than elevating it to saying that "2048 changed the world forever, for the good of all mankind". (Which is what I believe you think I'm saying)

atmosx 13y ago
Sorry but changing the world is a phrase open to interpretation. To me sounds extremely pretentious as I don't have any software developer in that list. When you mention people who change the world I picture Mandela, King, Ghandi and other political leaders who made their lives and the lives of their societies better. A piece of software can not achieve something of similar scale and importance because... There's nothing like an idea that becomes a movement. I don't want to start a flame and I feel that this conversation is taking the wrong turn so I won't post other replies. Anyway, nothing personal against you or the dev. Best of luck with everything
- TrevorJ 13y ago
  Humanitarians change the world but so do inventors. I would argue that Edison, Bell, Ford and the like all changed the world significantly. Did they change it for the better? Who is to say? Mandela, King and Ghandi certainly were overt in their motives to change the world for the better, so in many ways they may be more visible targets, but Bill Gates, Tim Berners-Lee, and the whole current raft of inventors of Twitter, Facebook, etc. have certainly changed the world.
- vjj 13y ago
  Only technology changes the world. Without technology we would still live in the stone age. Politicians don't matter. Nothing grand in a hunter-gatherer band leader ordering a fight with another band.

vvvv 13y ago

I agree. In the realm of games, Starcraft and Counter Strike changed the world, largely contributing to the creation of a new industry, where e-sports professionals can make a living playing games. 2048, while a great creation, has not changed the world in any significant way.

Swizec 13y ago
> has not changed the world in any significant way Adding the "in any significant way" qualifier essentially means you agree that 2048 changed the world.
- john_fushi 13y ago
  I guess it has to be implicitly added as soon as we speak about changing the world. At some level everything change the world and then the expression loses its meaning.
- magpi3 13y ago
  If I pick up a stone and move it six inches I have changed the world. Some kind of qualifier is necessary for a phrase that vague.

TrevorJ 13y ago

Developers are most certainly not the only group of people who suffer from this. I also think that there's actually some truth in feeling like you can change the world through code. There have been a huge number of code projects that have impacted out culture a whole lot over the last 20 years and in many ways they've been by far the most visible cultural lampposts.

jacobolus 13y ago

Quick note: you mean deluded, not disillusioned. (Disillusion is the disappointment/cynicism/&c. you experience when you find out that you used to be deluded.)

atmosx 13y ago
Yes, right.

frogpelt 13y ago

When 23 million people are talking about your little weekend project, you have changed the world. Maybe your definition of 'change the world' is too stringent. Squeezable ketchup bottles changed the world too. Instead of being so uptight about how people use the phrase why you don't you start trying to create your own impact?

tensor 13y ago
Instead of being obsessed with entertainment and other forms of self gratification, it would be nice if people focused on important problems with actual historical consequence.
- IneffablePigeon 13y ago
  So playing and talking about a game means you never focus on important problems?
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  What if, 50 years from now, game design textbooks talk about 2048 and how it became a near instant hit in the early 2000s?
- chc 13y ago
  So, instead of engaging in some harmless recreation, you reckon it's morally superior to go on Hacker News and chastise people for engaging in harmless recreation? I think instead of being obsessed with criticizing others, it would be nice if people focused on just about anything else in the world. Games are not the loftiest goal in the world, but they do make people happy and engage their minds. Not everyone is going to cure cancer, and it is not reasonable to criticize them for not being that person. Yes, curing cancer would be grand, but we need plumbers too. Just because something isn't historically significant doesn't mean it isn't significant.
  - tensor 13y ago
    I'm not criticizing them for what they do, I'm criticizing them for the whole wooo I'm changing the world arrogance. Take it down a notch and get some perspective.

jodrellblank 13y ago

I have this feeling that developers change the world more often than Cartoon/TV-heros save thew world these days. It's probably correct. How many fictional heroes are there, compared to how many real world developers? ps. Developers are the only group of people who are so disillusioned to collectively think that their products change the world. Lots of non-developers think their efforts can change the world: http://right-brain-law.blogspot.com/2013/07/i-went-to-law-school-to-change-world.html http://right-brain-law.blogspot.com/2013/07/i-went-to-law-sc... http://admissions.uoregon.edu/majors/political%20science http://admissions.uoregon.edu/majors/political%20science "Get Ready to Change the World" http://sydney.edu.au/arts/donors/change_world.shtml http://sydney.edu.au/arts/donors/change_world.shtml "10 ways an arts degree can change the world" Do you have a real point to go with the bitter cynicism?

atmosx 13y ago
No. Not at the same %: Just take a look at how many startups are deliberately stating to change the world. The claim is pretentious and false: it gives a sense of virtue which is absolutely not there. I'm not referring to the author of minor projects, I'm referring to Jobs, Gates, Zuckerberg, as well. People that changed the world range from M. L. King, to Ghandi and N. Mandela with numerous others in between. To me is disrespectful to those who gave their lives in order to change the world to make such a claim while becoming a millionaire in the process, sitting on a cosy sofa behind a computer screen. Developers are creating technologies (from Bitcoin to OpenGPG). These are tools which can be used for good or bad (surveillance). Software doesn't take the streets, nor will pass legislations through parliaments. So it might change some aspects of every day life, but meaningful changes do not happen using iPhones: Syndications in China are illegal. And there's no technology (Tor, Bitcoin, OTR, GPG, Twitter, etc) that will make syndications legal. Only people can do that and it's not an easy and peaceful process. The world changes when ideas turn into social/political movements and then legislation are passed. Usually many people die in between. So if for you Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King and StartupXYZ chasing VPs are the same thing, then we have different values, views and not much to discuss.
epo 13y ago
He isn't being cynical, he is reacting to pretentiousness and pomposity, and quite rightly too. And of course developers do not have a monopoly of such self aggrandisment.