6 ms·

I think it's even worse than being 'crafty', they're actually trying to show you respect under the idea that because you're with her you have a claim on her and

I think it's even worse than being 'crafty', they're actually trying to show you respect under the idea that because you're with her you have a claim on her and they're deferring to that. Which is incredibly creepy and offensive.

sliverstorm 13y ago
Well, or they just feel that they will be much less successful hitting on a girl who is accompanied by a guy, platonic or otherwise.
- pencilcode 13y ago
  And/or they simply want to avoid a direct confrontation, which might happen when a man is present, but not when the woman is alone. This just happened to me today, biking and of course i heard some rude comments. Really wanted to tell them to fuck off but then I would engage, they might respond, etc, and my biking zen would be even more disturbed.
  - vacri 13y ago
    It's really not "that guy might stop me". It's "they're probably a couple, what's the point". The default assumption is that a mixed-gender pair of people around the same age is a couple. I've been out wandering with female platonic friends plenty of times, only to have people assume we're a romantic pair.
    - judk 13y ago
      So you think a woman walking with her father would get catcalled like a woman alone?
      - vacri 13y ago
        Do you think a woman walking with her mother would get catcalled like a woman alone?
- dethstar 13y ago
  Contrary to the success always obtained by catcalling?
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    I just skip catcalling, because I don't understand it.
Mz 13y ago
Men are dramatically less likely to hit on me when I am with either or both of my adult sons. Many people realize they are relatives (though some think they are my brothers, not my sons) so, no, they don't think I am the sexual property of these two males. I have only been bothered by a guy when my sons are around when the guy was drinking alcohol. So I think the parent comment is more accurate than your assumption, though, yes, your observation is a social reality in some situations and it is a problem for women -- that "respect" is sometimes given for a man's property rights over a woman, not really given to her per se. I am upvoting both of you.
- stcredzero 13y ago
  I'm not so sure the men doing this are thinking consciously about property rights. They're probably going around motivated at the primate level. This doesn't excuse what they're doing, but it makes me suspect that they will continue to emulate the behavior of the other men they observe in their environment and will only change when they see others around them change their behavior. This is what people are like: only a minority of people will go through the motions of self examination, and only a minority of those will do that effectively. Where real change happens, or where outdated misbehaviors persist, it's basically a matter of primate see, primate do. Real change has to have a component of motivation at this level.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    Territory is a deeply animal behavior, as is alpha male claiming of mates. So I think that property rights are an elaboration of primate instincts.
    - stcredzero 13y ago
      The actions probably get initiated a full second before the thought of "property" ever enters anyone's head, if it does at all.
      - jdmichal 13y ago
mrxd 13y ago
Not really, they just want to avoid a fight. Under sexist rules, a man accompanying a woman is her "protector". If someone makes rude sexual remarks to her, it's also insulting to him because it implies that he's too weak to do anything about it. That's a provocation to respond with violence to affirm his manhood. It's the same logic behind insulting a man by calling his mother a whore. Why should he be insulted by an insult to his mother? Because a real man is supposed to defend the honor of the women in his family.
wpietri 13y ago
I'm sure that's an element. But there are other people in front of whom street harassers will quiet down, too, so I don't think that's the only explanation.

sliverstorm 13y ago

Well, or they just feel that they will be much less successful hitting on a girl who is accompanied by a guy, platonic or otherwise.

pencilcode 13y ago
And/or they simply want to avoid a direct confrontation, which might happen when a man is present, but not when the woman is alone. This just happened to me today, biking and of course i heard some rude comments. Really wanted to tell them to fuck off but then I would engage, they might respond, etc, and my biking zen would be even more disturbed.
- vacri 13y ago
  It's really not "that guy might stop me". It's "they're probably a couple, what's the point". The default assumption is that a mixed-gender pair of people around the same age is a couple. I've been out wandering with female platonic friends plenty of times, only to have people assume we're a romantic pair.
  - judk 13y ago
    So you think a woman walking with her father would get catcalled like a woman alone?
    - vacri 13y ago
      Do you think a woman walking with her mother would get catcalled like a woman alone?
dethstar 13y ago
Contrary to the success always obtained by catcalling?
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  I just skip catcalling, because I don't understand it.

Mz 13y ago

Men are dramatically less likely to hit on me when I am with either or both of my adult sons. Many people realize they are relatives (though some think they are my brothers, not my sons) so, no, they don't think I am the sexual property of these two males. I have only been bothered by a guy when my sons are around when the guy was drinking alcohol. So I think the parent comment is more accurate than your assumption, though, yes, your observation is a social reality in some situations and it is a problem for women -- that "respect" is sometimes given for a man's property rights over a woman, not really given to her per se. I am upvoting both of you.

stcredzero 13y ago
I'm not so sure the men doing this are thinking consciously about property rights. They're probably going around motivated at the primate level. This doesn't excuse what they're doing, but it makes me suspect that they will continue to emulate the behavior of the other men they observe in their environment and will only change when they see others around them change their behavior. This is what people are like: only a minority of people will go through the motions of self examination, and only a minority of those will do that effectively. Where real change happens, or where outdated misbehaviors persist, it's basically a matter of primate see, primate do. Real change has to have a component of motivation at this level.
- wpietri 13y ago
  Territory is a deeply animal behavior, as is alpha male claiming of mates. So I think that property rights are an elaboration of primate instincts.
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    The actions probably get initiated a full second before the thought of "property" ever enters anyone's head, if it does at all.
    - jdmichal 13y ago

mrxd 13y ago

Not really, they just want to avoid a fight. Under sexist rules, a man accompanying a woman is her "protector". If someone makes rude sexual remarks to her, it's also insulting to him because it implies that he's too weak to do anything about it. That's a provocation to respond with violence to affirm his manhood. It's the same logic behind insulting a man by calling his mother a whore. Why should he be insulted by an insult to his mother? Because a real man is supposed to defend the honor of the women in his family.

wpietri 13y ago

I'm sure that's an element. But there are other people in front of whom street harassers will quiet down, too, so I don't think that's the only explanation.