10 ms·

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, i

by jawns 13y ago

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I didn't realize" -- and they won't do it again. Which doesn't necessarily mean that people should always be let off the hook if they say/do something in ignorance; there are some things that one ought not be ignorant about. But I think there's something fundamentally different about someone saying or doing something in ignorance -- especially if they appear contrite once they realize how it's made others feel -- and someone doing it purposefully, like the creep in the restaurant in Heidi's story.

Swizec 13y ago
And then you have people like me who consider trolling to be the single best way of bonding with people. I don't think I could work with a person I can't say offensive things to and who doesn't say offensive things back. Maybe I'm just too European, I don't know.
- skannamalai 13y ago
  Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is justification "I'm European so..." seems dangerously close to "lighten up" or "get a sense of humor". It's fine to put yourself out there on a joke, humor is hard, but rewarding. But when someone takes offense, I find it problematic when all of a sudden it's their problem for not getting your style or sense of humor. When a privileged person is forced to check their privilege and they respond with "oh, my bad, I didn't realize, etc." I accept maybe they don't have the experience or perspective that comes with being disenfranchised in that particular regard. When they respond with "lighten up" I find there is no attempt to internalize why someone could feel sadness, or discomfort, or frustration about the offensive topic at hand.
  - Swizec 13y ago
    Why does that matter? Why would you say offensive things about people's physical characteristics and things that aren't their choice? That's just intelectualy lazy and pretty damn mean. I find that people give you plenty of opportunities to poke fun at them without being lazy about it. edit: The general idea is to only make fun of things people are completely secure and confident about, otherwise you're not being funny, you're being mean.
    - jacquesm 13y ago
      > The general idea is to only make fun of things people are completely secure and confident about How do you know that's the case though?
      - smokinjoe 13y ago
        Exactly. Things may take a completely different meaning depending on the people you're with. I remember a conversation from a while ago when young me called a gf of mine the "prettiest black girl ever." When she asked me, "why not just prettiest girl ever?" I was completely dumbfounded because while that's what I had meant, I realized that I no idea what a simple qualifier could do to the meaning of the phrase for someone. I learned a valuable lesson that day that I won't ever forget. I don't considered myself 'censored' since then, just significantly more tactful in social situations.
    - Crito 13y ago
      So perhaps like ribbing people in a tongue-in-cheek fashion for using the "wrong" text editor? I think that sort of thing is fine and generally accepted, provided you don't become hurtful or vicious with it.
  - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
    Although I'm not in particular agreement with the OP, your reply is hardly accurate, either. Are you implying that these groups are incapable of making and handling crude/dark humor?
- wakaflaka 13y ago
  Actually, I think you are just socially inept.
  - Swizec 13y ago
    You'd be surprised by how deep a connection you can form with somebody through ribbing.
    - dang 13y ago
      Would you please stop posting off-topic, low-substance comments to this thread?
      - mindslight 13y ago
        I don't think that's really a fair categorization of the specific comment you've responded to (especially given its parent). Did you perhaps interpret "ribbing" as a sexual reference, rather than meaning "good-natured teasing" ? I do agree that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7688033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7688033 is quite low-substance, and think it would be better to call it out instead.
    - gress 13y ago
      You'd surprised how easy it is to bully someone without realizing.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- aaronem 13y ago
  Not flexible enough, perhaps. It's all in the context.
- abracar 13y ago
  Come on, I'm European too and that's not an excuse for hurting people's feelings or worse.
- cms07 13y ago
  I can't believe that you're receiving this poor of a response for acting like a normal person. It's as though everyone on HN is a hypersensitive person.
timsally 13y ago
> But I think there's something fundamentally different about someone saying or doing something in ignorance -- especially if they appear contrite once they realize how it's made others feel -- and someone doing it purposefully, like the creep in the restaurant in Heidi's story. Sure, agreed, and this is explicitly recognized by the US legal system (i.e. involuntary manslaughter vs. voluntary manslaughter/murder). That said, good intentions don't lessen impact on victims. Intention sometimes plays a role is determining what punishment is appropriate for the person who did the offensive/criminal act, but that's little consolation to those who are routinely targets of said acts. You're dead, whether the person that killed you meant to kill you or not. Something important to keep in mind in the context of harassment and conduct in the workplace.
- evilduck 13y ago
  I think another important thing to consider is that not everyone who takes offense to another's use of language is always a victim, but they'll gladly play the role of victim if we allow it. Sometimes people are actively looking to be offended. Take this one for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc
  - selmnoo 13y ago
    > Sometimes people are actively looking to be offended. Take this one for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc That reminds me of a conversation I had nearly a decade ago with a black (African immigrant) friend. I don't remember the details, but basically he said that he was annoyed that the words "dark" and "black" had negative connotations. I knew him well enough to know that he wasn't trolling, and that this was something that had seriously taken an emotional toll on him. Ever since then I've been thinking about this -- maybe it does bother a lot of black folks? And, think of very little whose conception of words is primitive, and how they might associate the words together. I don't really know what I'm getting it. It's very hard to make any sort of conclusion here. I mean, what's the cure -- we make a prescriptive linguistic change that color-based words can't be used anymore? That's not happening.
taiki 13y ago
I really REALLY hope that no one is ignorant to the fact that tricking people to touching their penis is wrong. I'm REALLY really REALLY hoping.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mhurron 13y ago
  Knowing something is wrong doesn't mean anything when you think you have the power to overcome any consequences.
brudgers 13y ago
Actions which are done without thinking through the consequences are careless, reckless, or negligent. Each of us is free to let such people off the hook when we are the victim as a result of such actions. But just as we are not obligated to do so, neither are other victims. And suggesting that forbearance is what someone else ought to do is bullshit. A man who treats women poorly isn't ignorant, he's habitual, and the habit was developed and persists because he's been let off the hook or as is the case with the VC's in the story because of a disparity of power. It's bullying and part and parcel of bullying is a lack of contrition.
- namenotrequired 13y ago
  There's a difference between saying something of which you're not aware it can be offensive, and saying something without thinking about whether it can be offensive.
guelo 13y ago
That is not the big takeaway. The big takeaway is that straight white men's privilege gives them an advantage over everybody else since they face fewer obstacles such as having their hands forced onto a penis while closing a business deal.
- drumdance 13y ago
  Not that I'm justifying it, but I wonder if the deal would even have gotten to the closing table if Heidi had been male?
  - danudey 13y ago
    If we assume that it was going to go through if she was receptive to the deal, then it's probably safe to assume that it would have gone through otherwise. It's not good business sense to make a bad business deal just to get someone to touch your junk. If you're working for a large company with lots of money, you either find women yourself or find a way pay for them on the company card.
    - drumdance 13y ago
      Oh I agree completely that sexual attraction shouldn't be the reason for a bad deal, but OTOH consider that there are a lot of very attractive women in sales who are able to subtly use that attraction as leverage. Not that they promise sex or anything remotely that overt, only that a lot of men think with the wrong head and will go out of their way to please an attractive woman. That includes signing a deal they may not sign otherwise. I don't fault women for this state of affairs.
- teacup50 13y ago
  > straight white men's privilege The article didn't actually include the man's race.
  - jacalata 13y ago
    yea, but it did say she was dealing with VCs 10 years ago, so an educated person can make a pretty confident guess.
ElComradio 13y ago
Where is it writ that a person's right to not endure offensive speech trumps another person's right to express themselves? Of course I would opine that a person being needlessly offensive is a jerk but where would I get off insisting she has to change her behavior to suit my tastes?
- zachwooddoughty 13y ago
  I think it's important to look at this as part of a more widespread issue than a few individuals expressing themselves inappropriately. When women are so ridiculously under-represented in the tech industry and are facing both explicit and structural discrimination, it's important to speak out against this behavior. Put another way: women's "jerkiness" does not make it harder for men in the tech industry, but men's "jerkiness" does make it harder for women in the tech industry.
  - ElComradio 13y ago
    I appreciate your views and believe they are sincere but when considering "the big picture", I don't think anyone can actually prove anything except there are fewer women in tech. In the big picture how can you show women as a group have it harder? I am a man. It is true I have not been asked to fondle someone under a table to close a deal. It is also true I have never been favored by a boss because he found me attractive. I am not claiming it's easier to be a woman, just that it cannot really be shown which group has it easier. Individual experience can get us closer to certainties but not all the way even then.
- arrrg 13y ago
  Because that would be a polite thing to do? This is mostly not about rights. It’s also about proper and polite behaviour.
  - ElComradio 13y ago
    How polite one finds it depends entirely on how much one sympathizes with the request.
SnakeDoc 13y ago
How about we all just treat people like people. It doesn't matter if you are a man or woman, your respect in the community should be based on merit. There are plenty of terrible male executives, and there are also plenty of terrible female executives. I'll probably get downvotes for this... but the one thing that annoys me is when someone plays one of the "cards", be it sexism, racism, etc. I've been around long enough to feel if you play a "card", then you have no merit (or just lost it all). I may be in the minority, but in the business roles I've filled over the years, I've always had complete disregard to an employee's gender or skin color... it's irrelevant, if you are the best fit for the job/project, then you're the best fit. Plain and simple. On the flip-side, employees should understand that just because they feel they are more qualified for a task, but were not rewarded with it... it does not instantly mean they were discriminated against -- usually the contrary. (Very few people are bigots, yet, the few ruin the bunch so-to-speak).
wpietri 13y ago
That's one good takeaway. But there's one that is more important to me: no matter how good my intent is, it's easy for me to accidentally make people suspect I'm just like some total asshole they've dealt with before. So I'm going to try harder to avoid triggering those associations. And when I do, I'm going to try to be bolder in apologizing for it and learning from it. My good intentions may explain a fuckup, but they sure don't justify it, and they don't excuse me from taking full responsibility.
- sunir 13y ago
  Are you sure this is the right take away? It seems extreme to expect you to take full responsibility for some other total asshole. And also kind of immoral to live in a world like this. I think the expectation of a moral adult is to seek mutual understanding to continually improve yourself to be a positive and constructive element in others' lives. If you unintentionally offended someone, it's an opportunity to learn more about their world. Conversely, it's also an opportunity for them to learn about your world. Maybe not everyone they meet is that total asshole, and there are in fact good people in this world. Just be that good person.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    We are made out of meat. We're half-evolved chimps living in a world with a 10,000-year history of war. We start life naked, screaming, and covered in blood, knowing so little that it takes years just to learn how to eat food. At the end, we all die, and then our bodies rot. It's a ridiculous world, and it's nobody's fault. But somebody has to take responsibility for making it better. I'm going to try. You can help if you want.
pabb 13y ago
As someone who actually enjoys making offensive comments in the _right context_, I can't disagree more with you. When somebody says something offensive, context is everything. If you're in a meeting with a group of adult men that are culturally similar to you and there's nothing pressing on the table, sure, a dick joke might be fine. But in the case of the article, I think the author even let off lightly situations like the "dick in the hand" anecdote. It's one thing to make an off-color joke to ease the mood when the context is appropriate, but if you're sitting in a room with a woman, and you make a comment like that, you know for a fact you're crossing a boundary, no matter how small it may be. For some reason, it reminds me of a former (male) roommate of mine who would always make comments containing indirect sexual references in the presence of our (only) female roommate. He would never say something sexually related pertaining to her, but things like "I watch too many TV shows? Nonsense. Are you calling me a whore??" Shit that would be subtle enough that he could easily shrug off an accusation that he was being offensive, yet he very much knew he was trying to spin the conversation toward sex as a means of flirting. I don't think there are many excuses to be made in these contexts. If you've ever known your mother, or had a sister or a girlfriend who was attractive (and the recipient of suggestive comments), you know exactly what's acceptable and what's not. Picture it's your girlfriend getting harassed. I'm hardly the whiteknight, social-justice type whatsoever, but for fuck sake, keep business as business and play bullshit kiddie flirt games at the bar.
- meric 13y ago
  "I don't think there are many excuses to be made in these contexts. If you've ever known your mother, or had a sister or a girlfriend who was attractive (and the recipient of suggestive comments), you know exactly what's acceptable and what's not. Picture it's your girlfriend getting harassed." Your argument is incomplete. I doubt most people have an attractive women in their lives, having either the role of mother, sister, or girlfriend, since such a minority of women are attractive, even if they might be the only women you notice every day.
mwetzler 13y ago
I don't think the big takeaway is about how women should act/think.

by jawns 13y ago

Swizec 13y ago

And then you have people like me who consider trolling to be the single best way of bonding with people. I don't think I could work with a person I can't say offensive things to and who doesn't say offensive things back. Maybe I'm just too European, I don't know.

skannamalai 13y ago
Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is justification "I'm European so..." seems dangerously close to "lighten up" or "get a sense of humor". It's fine to put yourself out there on a joke, humor is hard, but rewarding. But when someone takes offense, I find it problematic when all of a sudden it's their problem for not getting your style or sense of humor. When a privileged person is forced to check their privilege and they respond with "oh, my bad, I didn't realize, etc." I accept maybe they don't have the experience or perspective that comes with being disenfranchised in that particular regard. When they respond with "lighten up" I find there is no attempt to internalize why someone could feel sadness, or discomfort, or frustration about the offensive topic at hand.
- Swizec 13y ago
  Why does that matter? Why would you say offensive things about people's physical characteristics and things that aren't their choice? That's just intelectualy lazy and pretty damn mean. I find that people give you plenty of opportunities to poke fun at them without being lazy about it. edit: The general idea is to only make fun of things people are completely secure and confident about, otherwise you're not being funny, you're being mean.
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    > The general idea is to only make fun of things people are completely secure and confident about How do you know that's the case though?
    - smokinjoe 13y ago
      Exactly. Things may take a completely different meaning depending on the people you're with. I remember a conversation from a while ago when young me called a gf of mine the "prettiest black girl ever." When she asked me, "why not just prettiest girl ever?" I was completely dumbfounded because while that's what I had meant, I realized that I no idea what a simple qualifier could do to the meaning of the phrase for someone. I learned a valuable lesson that day that I won't ever forget. I don't considered myself 'censored' since then, just significantly more tactful in social situations.
  - Crito 13y ago
    So perhaps like ribbing people in a tongue-in-cheek fashion for using the "wrong" text editor? I think that sort of thing is fine and generally accepted, provided you don't become hurtful or vicious with it.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Although I'm not in particular agreement with the OP, your reply is hardly accurate, either. Are you implying that these groups are incapable of making and handling crude/dark humor?
wakaflaka 13y ago
Actually, I think you are just socially inept.
- Swizec 13y ago
  You'd be surprised by how deep a connection you can form with somebody through ribbing.
  - dang 13y ago
    Would you please stop posting off-topic, low-substance comments to this thread?
    - mindslight 13y ago
      I don't think that's really a fair categorization of the specific comment you've responded to (especially given its parent). Did you perhaps interpret "ribbing" as a sexual reference, rather than meaning "good-natured teasing" ? I do agree that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7688033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7688033 is quite low-substance, and think it would be better to call it out instead.
  - gress 13y ago
    You'd surprised how easy it is to bully someone without realizing.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
aaronem 13y ago
Not flexible enough, perhaps. It's all in the context.
abracar 13y ago
Come on, I'm European too and that's not an excuse for hurting people's feelings or worse.
cms07 13y ago
I can't believe that you're receiving this poor of a response for acting like a normal person. It's as though everyone on HN is a hypersensitive person.

timsally 13y ago

> But I think there's something fundamentally different about someone saying or doing something in ignorance -- especially if they appear contrite once they realize how it's made others feel -- and someone doing it purposefully, like the creep in the restaurant in Heidi's story. Sure, agreed, and this is explicitly recognized by the US legal system (i.e. involuntary manslaughter vs. voluntary manslaughter/murder). That said, good intentions don't lessen impact on victims. Intention sometimes plays a role is determining what punishment is appropriate for the person who did the offensive/criminal act, but that's little consolation to those who are routinely targets of said acts. You're dead, whether the person that killed you meant to kill you or not. Something important to keep in mind in the context of harassment and conduct in the workplace.

evilduck 13y ago
I think another important thing to consider is that not everyone who takes offense to another's use of language is always a victim, but they'll gladly play the role of victim if we allow it. Sometimes people are actively looking to be offended. Take this one for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc
- selmnoo 13y ago
  > Sometimes people are actively looking to be offended. Take this one for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc That reminds me of a conversation I had nearly a decade ago with a black (African immigrant) friend. I don't remember the details, but basically he said that he was annoyed that the words "dark" and "black" had negative connotations. I knew him well enough to know that he wasn't trolling, and that this was something that had seriously taken an emotional toll on him. Ever since then I've been thinking about this -- maybe it does bother a lot of black folks? And, think of very little whose conception of words is primitive, and how they might associate the words together. I don't really know what I'm getting it. It's very hard to make any sort of conclusion here. I mean, what's the cure -- we make a prescriptive linguistic change that color-based words can't be used anymore? That's not happening.

taiki 13y ago

I really REALLY hope that no one is ignorant to the fact that tricking people to touching their penis is wrong. I'm REALLY really REALLY hoping.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mhurron 13y ago
Knowing something is wrong doesn't mean anything when you think you have the power to overcome any consequences.

brudgers 13y ago

Actions which are done without thinking through the consequences are careless, reckless, or negligent. Each of us is free to let such people off the hook when we are the victim as a result of such actions. But just as we are not obligated to do so, neither are other victims. And suggesting that forbearance is what someone else ought to do is bullshit. A man who treats women poorly isn't ignorant, he's habitual, and the habit was developed and persists because he's been let off the hook or as is the case with the VC's in the story because of a disparity of power. It's bullying and part and parcel of bullying is a lack of contrition.

namenotrequired 13y ago
There's a difference between saying something of which you're not aware it can be offensive, and saying something without thinking about whether it can be offensive.

guelo 13y ago

That is not the big takeaway. The big takeaway is that straight white men's privilege gives them an advantage over everybody else since they face fewer obstacles such as having their hands forced onto a penis while closing a business deal.

drumdance 13y ago
Not that I'm justifying it, but I wonder if the deal would even have gotten to the closing table if Heidi had been male?
- danudey 13y ago
  If we assume that it was going to go through if she was receptive to the deal, then it's probably safe to assume that it would have gone through otherwise. It's not good business sense to make a bad business deal just to get someone to touch your junk. If you're working for a large company with lots of money, you either find women yourself or find a way pay for them on the company card.
  - drumdance 13y ago
    Oh I agree completely that sexual attraction shouldn't be the reason for a bad deal, but OTOH consider that there are a lot of very attractive women in sales who are able to subtly use that attraction as leverage. Not that they promise sex or anything remotely that overt, only that a lot of men think with the wrong head and will go out of their way to please an attractive woman. That includes signing a deal they may not sign otherwise. I don't fault women for this state of affairs.
teacup50 13y ago
> straight white men's privilege The article didn't actually include the man's race.
- jacalata 13y ago
  yea, but it did say she was dealing with VCs 10 years ago, so an educated person can make a pretty confident guess.

ElComradio 13y ago

Where is it writ that a person's right to not endure offensive speech trumps another person's right to express themselves? Of course I would opine that a person being needlessly offensive is a jerk but where would I get off insisting she has to change her behavior to suit my tastes?

zachwooddoughty 13y ago
I think it's important to look at this as part of a more widespread issue than a few individuals expressing themselves inappropriately. When women are so ridiculously under-represented in the tech industry and are facing both explicit and structural discrimination, it's important to speak out against this behavior. Put another way: women's "jerkiness" does not make it harder for men in the tech industry, but men's "jerkiness" does make it harder for women in the tech industry.
- ElComradio 13y ago
  I appreciate your views and believe they are sincere but when considering "the big picture", I don't think anyone can actually prove anything except there are fewer women in tech. In the big picture how can you show women as a group have it harder? I am a man. It is true I have not been asked to fondle someone under a table to close a deal. It is also true I have never been favored by a boss because he found me attractive. I am not claiming it's easier to be a woman, just that it cannot really be shown which group has it easier. Individual experience can get us closer to certainties but not all the way even then.
arrrg 13y ago
Because that would be a polite thing to do? This is mostly not about rights. It’s also about proper and polite behaviour.
- ElComradio 13y ago
  How polite one finds it depends entirely on how much one sympathizes with the request.

SnakeDoc 13y ago

How about we all just treat people like people. It doesn't matter if you are a man or woman, your respect in the community should be based on merit. There are plenty of terrible male executives, and there are also plenty of terrible female executives. I'll probably get downvotes for this... but the one thing that annoys me is when someone plays one of the "cards", be it sexism, racism, etc. I've been around long enough to feel if you play a "card", then you have no merit (or just lost it all). I may be in the minority, but in the business roles I've filled over the years, I've always had complete disregard to an employee's gender or skin color... it's irrelevant, if you are the best fit for the job/project, then you're the best fit. Plain and simple. On the flip-side, employees should understand that just because they feel they are more qualified for a task, but were not rewarded with it... it does not instantly mean they were discriminated against -- usually the contrary. (Very few people are bigots, yet, the few ruin the bunch so-to-speak).

wpietri 13y ago

That's one good takeaway. But there's one that is more important to me: no matter how good my intent is, it's easy for me to accidentally make people suspect I'm just like some total asshole they've dealt with before. So I'm going to try harder to avoid triggering those associations. And when I do, I'm going to try to be bolder in apologizing for it and learning from it. My good intentions may explain a fuckup, but they sure don't justify it, and they don't excuse me from taking full responsibility.

sunir 13y ago
Are you sure this is the right take away? It seems extreme to expect you to take full responsibility for some other total asshole. And also kind of immoral to live in a world like this. I think the expectation of a moral adult is to seek mutual understanding to continually improve yourself to be a positive and constructive element in others' lives. If you unintentionally offended someone, it's an opportunity to learn more about their world. Conversely, it's also an opportunity for them to learn about your world. Maybe not everyone they meet is that total asshole, and there are in fact good people in this world. Just be that good person.
- wpietri 13y ago
  We are made out of meat. We're half-evolved chimps living in a world with a 10,000-year history of war. We start life naked, screaming, and covered in blood, knowing so little that it takes years just to learn how to eat food. At the end, we all die, and then our bodies rot. It's a ridiculous world, and it's nobody's fault. But somebody has to take responsibility for making it better. I'm going to try. You can help if you want.

pabb 13y ago

As someone who actually enjoys making offensive comments in the _right context_, I can't disagree more with you. When somebody says something offensive, context is everything. If you're in a meeting with a group of adult men that are culturally similar to you and there's nothing pressing on the table, sure, a dick joke might be fine. But in the case of the article, I think the author even let off lightly situations like the "dick in the hand" anecdote. It's one thing to make an off-color joke to ease the mood when the context is appropriate, but if you're sitting in a room with a woman, and you make a comment like that, you know for a fact you're crossing a boundary, no matter how small it may be. For some reason, it reminds me of a former (male) roommate of mine who would always make comments containing indirect sexual references in the presence of our (only) female roommate. He would never say something sexually related pertaining to her, but things like "I watch too many TV shows? Nonsense. Are you calling me a whore??" Shit that would be subtle enough that he could easily shrug off an accusation that he was being offensive, yet he very much knew he was trying to spin the conversation toward sex as a means of flirting. I don't think there are many excuses to be made in these contexts. If you've ever known your mother, or had a sister or a girlfriend who was attractive (and the recipient of suggestive comments), you know exactly what's acceptable and what's not. Picture it's your girlfriend getting harassed. I'm hardly the whiteknight, social-justice type whatsoever, but for fuck sake, keep business as business and play bullshit kiddie flirt games at the bar.

meric 13y ago
"I don't think there are many excuses to be made in these contexts. If you've ever known your mother, or had a sister or a girlfriend who was attractive (and the recipient of suggestive comments), you know exactly what's acceptable and what's not. Picture it's your girlfriend getting harassed." Your argument is incomplete. I doubt most people have an attractive women in their lives, having either the role of mother, sister, or girlfriend, since such a minority of women are attractive, even if they might be the only women you notice every day.

mwetzler 13y ago

I don't think the big takeaway is about how women should act/think.