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Depends on who you ask. I doubt that the Scots or the Welsh or even the Cornish would consider the Anglo-Saxons to be the 'natives'. Fortunately hardly anyone

Depends on who you ask. I doubt that the Scots or the Welsh or even the Cornish would consider the Anglo-Saxons to be the 'natives'. Fortunately hardly anyone in Britain actually thinks in terms of racial or ethnic purity. There definitely is a sense in which French and Latinate words are considered more upper-class, clever, fancy or polite - my favourite example is how referring to someone as 'fat' is considered rude whereas 'obese' is not, with the only difference being that one word is Germanic and the other Latinate.

ithkuil 12y ago
Same happens in italian where English words are used to sound fancy and hide behind technicisms. Sometimes it gets funny because you end up with words like "devoluzione" coming from english "devolution" (which in turn comes from latin) replacing the italian "decentramento". "obese" doesn't sound less rude per-se because it's latinate, but because, being latinate, it became a technical term and thus can be used to describe something with more distance, and apparent objectivity.
junto 12y ago
Spot on. Only the BNP and UKIP are fascinated by ethnic purity and luckily they have a limited number of uneducated bigoted followers. There was an interesting DNA study that I read on the BBC website some time ago about the Welsh (Celts of Breten) being 'true Britons' [1] The Celts of Breten are the usually named as the true 'indigenous' Britons [2], but you wouldn't be able to find a 'pure' one if you tried. But the origins of the Celts are also suspected to be of mainland European descent as well. [3][4][5] The real true Britons, who more than likely crossed the land bridge during the last ice age left no trace of themselves [6]. After the Celts the Saxons, Jutes, Angles, Danes, Romans and Normans were all additions to the melting pot. More recently, immigration after the WWII of workers from ex-Empire countries (now nearly all Commonwealth) have added to that vibrant mix. 1000 years later and our DNA is a good healthy mix. I think that was nature's design in the first place right? [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin#Policies_and_views http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin#Policies_and_views [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(Celtic_people) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(Celtic_people) [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Origins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Origins [5] http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron_01.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron... [6] http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peoples_01.shtml#two http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peop...
- arethuza 12y ago
  There was a rather splendid Time Team special a while back where they mentioned that the British Isles had seen something like seven completely separate waves of human colonization - i.e. multiple times people have come here, eventually to be wiped out or leave only for people to try again and again.
  - junto 12y ago
    I like Time Team. I'll have to try and dig that one up.
- vidarh 12y ago
  One of our neighbours supports the BNP. Given that both my ex and I are immigrants, and she is black, this has given rise to some amusing conversations now and again. When the subject of repatriation came up (for people not familiar with British politics, the BNP wants to repatriate anyone that's not of white-British descent), my ex immediately asked "so you will go back to Germany and give England back to the Welsh?" (aiming to make a point rather than accuracy) But somehow, of course, they wanted to draw the timeline on how long your family needed to have been in Britain just far enough back to ensure there'd be no brown-skinned people. (My impression is that they're not really all that racist when actually pressed for details; they've just been talked into believing in some mysterious group of "others" that steal their jobs and take their women, but somehow whoever they get to know cease to be part of this "others", regardless of race - they actually have quite a few friends that are both immigrants and black, asian etc.)
  - junto 12y ago
    > somehow whoever they get to know cease to be part of this "others", regardless of race I think you are spot on here. There is this notion that "other" people are causing Britain's problems (this applies in any other country). It gives them someone to blame. In fact politicians are happy to seed these kinds of blame shifting, because more than often the country is screwed because of their policies. Furthermore, the country is screwed because as a collective, we've let our country and the system fester and rot. Hence, we blame others rather than looking inwardly. On a more micro level we can see this kind of blame culture in our development teams, or even with ourselves when we suffer poor health. We need to care for our system together. One of the reasons I dislike politics is that it is divisive and blame focused.
shawabawa3 12y ago
> my favourite example is how referring to someone as 'fat' is considered rude whereas 'obese' is not In my experience that's not true at all. Both are rude but obese is much worse than fat.
rodgerd 12y ago
> Fortunately hardly anyone in Britain actually thinks in terms of racial or ethnic purity. That's why Robin Hood, with its tales of darstardly French and stalwart Anglo-Saxon Englishmen has survived hundreds of years. Because no-one in England thinks about racial or ethnic purity.
- jbert 12y ago
  The English-French rivalry isn't rooted in race or ethnicity, just hundreds of years of killing each other. It's more along the lines of sporting team rivalry.
- arethuza 12y ago
  Amusingly, for King Arthur the "stalwart Anglo-Saxon(s)" were the invading enemies - and yes he probably is mostly fictional but things like the Y Gododdin do refer to battles by the natives against the Angles. [I love mentioning the Y Gododdin as I can see Edinburgh Castle out the window as I write this]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Gododdin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Gododdin
  - rodgerd 12y ago
    Indeed. I very much enjoy Bernard Cornwell's take on the Arthurian mythos, where he tries to strip out a lot of the later additions to the myth and tell the stories as the struggle of the post-Roman Britons to retain their kingdoms in the face of the Germanic invasions.

ithkuil 12y ago

Same happens in italian where English words are used to sound fancy and hide behind technicisms. Sometimes it gets funny because you end up with words like "devoluzione" coming from english "devolution" (which in turn comes from latin) replacing the italian "decentramento". "obese" doesn't sound less rude per-se because it's latinate, but because, being latinate, it became a technical term and thus can be used to describe something with more distance, and apparent objectivity.

junto 12y ago

Spot on. Only the BNP and UKIP are fascinated by ethnic purity and luckily they have a limited number of uneducated bigoted followers. There was an interesting DNA study that I read on the BBC website some time ago about the Welsh (Celts of Breten) being 'true Britons' [1] The Celts of Breten are the usually named as the true 'indigenous' Britons [2], but you wouldn't be able to find a 'pure' one if you tried. But the origins of the Celts are also suspected to be of mainland European descent as well. [3][4][5] The real true Britons, who more than likely crossed the land bridge during the last ice age left no trace of themselves [6]. After the Celts the Saxons, Jutes, Angles, Danes, Romans and Normans were all additions to the melting pot. More recently, immigration after the WWII of workers from ex-Empire countries (now nearly all Commonwealth) have added to that vibrant mix. 1000 years later and our DNA is a good healthy mix. I think that was nature's design in the first place right? [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin#Policies_and_views http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin#Policies_and_views [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(Celtic_people) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(Celtic_people) [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Origins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Origins [5] http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron_01.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron... [6] http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peoples_01.shtml#two http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peop...

arethuza 12y ago
There was a rather splendid Time Team special a while back where they mentioned that the British Isles had seen something like seven completely separate waves of human colonization - i.e. multiple times people have come here, eventually to be wiped out or leave only for people to try again and again.
- junto 12y ago
  I like Time Team. I'll have to try and dig that one up.
vidarh 12y ago
One of our neighbours supports the BNP. Given that both my ex and I are immigrants, and she is black, this has given rise to some amusing conversations now and again. When the subject of repatriation came up (for people not familiar with British politics, the BNP wants to repatriate anyone that's not of white-British descent), my ex immediately asked "so you will go back to Germany and give England back to the Welsh?" (aiming to make a point rather than accuracy) But somehow, of course, they wanted to draw the timeline on how long your family needed to have been in Britain just far enough back to ensure there'd be no brown-skinned people. (My impression is that they're not really all that racist when actually pressed for details; they've just been talked into believing in some mysterious group of "others" that steal their jobs and take their women, but somehow whoever they get to know cease to be part of this "others", regardless of race - they actually have quite a few friends that are both immigrants and black, asian etc.)
- junto 12y ago
  > somehow whoever they get to know cease to be part of this "others", regardless of race I think you are spot on here. There is this notion that "other" people are causing Britain's problems (this applies in any other country). It gives them someone to blame. In fact politicians are happy to seed these kinds of blame shifting, because more than often the country is screwed because of their policies. Furthermore, the country is screwed because as a collective, we've let our country and the system fester and rot. Hence, we blame others rather than looking inwardly. On a more micro level we can see this kind of blame culture in our development teams, or even with ourselves when we suffer poor health. We need to care for our system together. One of the reasons I dislike politics is that it is divisive and blame focused.

shawabawa3 12y ago

> my favourite example is how referring to someone as 'fat' is considered rude whereas 'obese' is not In my experience that's not true at all. Both are rude but obese is much worse than fat.

rodgerd 12y ago

> Fortunately hardly anyone in Britain actually thinks in terms of racial or ethnic purity. That's why Robin Hood, with its tales of darstardly French and stalwart Anglo-Saxon Englishmen has survived hundreds of years. Because no-one in England thinks about racial or ethnic purity.

jbert 12y ago
The English-French rivalry isn't rooted in race or ethnicity, just hundreds of years of killing each other. It's more along the lines of sporting team rivalry.
arethuza 12y ago
Amusingly, for King Arthur the "stalwart Anglo-Saxon(s)" were the invading enemies - and yes he probably is mostly fictional but things like the Y Gododdin do refer to battles by the natives against the Angles. [I love mentioning the Y Gododdin as I can see Edinburgh Castle out the window as I write this]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Gododdin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Gododdin
- rodgerd 12y ago
  Indeed. I very much enjoy Bernard Cornwell's take on the Arthurian mythos, where he tries to strip out a lot of the later additions to the myth and tell the stories as the struggle of the post-Roman Britons to retain their kingdoms in the face of the Germanic invasions.