7 ms·

A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault

102 points by tokenadult 13y ago

simonebrunozzi 13y ago
Surprised that this one didn't get any comment so far. This is 100% contrary to popular belief. Another point that often surprises people is that most of violence occurs in the family, perpetrated by people that the victim knows extremely well.
- Raphmedia 13y ago
  I guess that depends where you live. Where I come from (near Montréal), the issue has been talked of a lot and there are posters in colleges and universities. Probably high schools too, but I wouldn't know. I didn't comment when I saw this thread because I thought "well, that's common knowledge..." Interesting article on an important issue nonetheless. I'm not downplaying the fact that men get raped. This is an important issue and people should be aware of it. I did upvote the thread.
  - marvin 13y ago
    I personally have at least one male friend who was by any sensible definition raped by a woman, as an adult. There is good reason to believe that this is an extremely unreported type of crime, and the data appears to back it up. I've been talking about the NISVS 2010 study for two years now, and no one believes me when I point out what its surveys show. [Edit: I see by now a lot of people have commented on this story. What stands out to me is that still, even in the face of the data mentioned in this story, much of the discussion revolves around prison rape with a male perpetrator. One of the points in this story is that even prison rape doesn't tell the most shocking part of the story of male victims of sexual abuse. Paraphrasing from the story: One of the studies of the Bureau of Justice data notes that in a certain subset of the data, 46% of the male victims of sexual assault reported a female perpetrator. Citation: http://jmm.sagepub.com/content/12/3/275.abstract http://jmm.sagepub.com/content/12/3/275.abstract This discussion is so far outside of people's gender norms and assumptions that it becomes hard to have a proper debate without constantly referencing the data. These are currently the best firm data sources we have on this subject, and the narrative should eventually change to reflect the available information. Women can be and sometimes are sexual offenders, and not only towards other women and children]. [2nd edit: Aaaaaaand it's flagged off the front page. Glad I was here two hours ago, or I would have missed this excellent summary of the latest studies in a very interesting branch of sociology. The large majority of HN users should really broaden their horizons a little].
    - Crake 13y ago
      >Aaaaaaand it's flagged off the front page. Any discussion of men's issues is usually quickly suppressed by the usual parties. :/
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
rhizome 13y ago
Begging the question. Who is saying they aren't?
- yebyen 13y ago
  Well, there's the new legal definition of rape, according to justice.gov, which reads... The new definition of rape is: “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” [1] The headline said sexual assault, not rape, so presumably they are aware of this definition and chose not to invoke it. But this definition precludes the possibility of men being raped by women who force themselves onto the men. [1]: http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/January/12-ag-018.html http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/January/12-ag-018.html
  - msandford 13y ago
    > But this definition precludes the possibility of men being raped by women who force themselves onto the men. I'm not so sure about that. It says "penetration...without the consent of the victim" and it doesn't specify that the victim must be penetrated. It defines the act that must happen, and it specifies that it must happen without the consent of the victim. But it doesn't specify if the victim is penetrating or being penetrated. It does take a careful reading to parse correctly though, so your point largely stands.
    - makomk 13y ago
      As written it reads as though the victim is the one being penetrated, but doesn't explicitly state it. I've always figured that whoever wrote it simply didn't realise that the victim might be the one doing the penetrating and so didn't even think about whether that should be included or excluded in the definition.
  - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
    In addition, the UK definition of rape specifically and unequivocally refers to male-on-female rape: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1
Pxtl 13y ago
... can we please keep this kind of gender politicking off of Hacker News? I mean, I get the cases where it's directly relevant to the software development industry, like the Github debacle, but this sort of thing is purely the domain of MRAs and SJWs and women's studies departments and the like.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  The loudest voices in the debate may at times be at the extremes, but the issue is still enormously relevant. I would say it's especially relevant here, though not necessarily this particular story. The way women are treated online is still very, very much different from the way men are treated. And this has widespread and significant effects on damned near everything. Whether it's the structure and makeup of online communities (like this one) or the acceptance of women's voices in online gaming and tech journalism to the participation of women in hacking/development activities and the encouragement/discouragement they receive to do so, and so on.
  - Pxtl 13y ago
    > The way women are treated online is still very, very much different from the way men are treated. But the article is not about that. The article is about male rape. Which is a subject that produces nothing but endless, meaningless flamewars.
- EliRivers 13y ago
  Men being raped is purely the domain of women's studies departments? What kind of schooling did you have?
- kirse 13y ago
  Sorry to see you're getting downvoted, I agree with you though. Been here for many, many days and these sort of easy-drama articles have unfortunately become more of the norm over the years. They tend to capture everyone's attention but not really add much value from a strictly hacker/startup perspective. Best thing you can do is just flag and move on, or log out and set your homepage to /best. FWIW, the founding father has moved on from the site, so what does that tell you about where its been headed?
chimeracoder 13y ago
I'm not surprised to read this. Any statistics about rape have to be taken with a huge helping of salt, because of all the issues surrounding data collection and self-reporting. However, I have read at least some reasonably reputable sources citing that in over half of all rapes that occur in the US, the victim is male[0]. Even if this is an overstatement, it's clear that the classic "man physically overpowers woman" narrative of rape is false - both because of the gender assumptions and because rape does not always involve physical dominance. It's kind of sad that sexual assault and rape are oftentimes viewed through the lens of gender-based crimes. In reality, sexual assault and rape have nothing to do with gender, and should be treated as serious problems regardless of the sex and/or gender of both the victim and perpetrator. By perpetuating a false image of rape/assault, we end up with a broken matched filter[1] for what constitutes rape. As a result, people tell themselves that what they experienced "wasn't really rape" - because the victim is male, or because they were under the influence, or because they were married to the perpetrator, or any other number of reasons. And this is how we end up with victims who stay silent. [0] This is not the same thing as saying that over half of all rape victims are male! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matched_filter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matched_filter
- yebyen 13y ago
  I am not sure how your [0] can be true. The only scenario I can imagine where it is true, there are a lot of men who are raped repeatedly, but not as many women raped repeatedly, or more individual women victims. Please clarify what you meant... citation would also be nice.
  - baldeagle 13y ago
    I believe that is the implication. Think of incarcerated populations.
- matthewmacleod 13y ago
  Even if this is an overstatement, it's clear that the classic "man physically overpowers woman" narrative of rape is false - both because of the gender assumptions and because rape does not always involve physical dominance. I don't think this is really a classic narrative regarding rape. If anything, a lot of discussion of late has focused explicitly around how that's so often not the case. It's kind of sad that sexual assault and rape are oftentimes viewed through the lens of gender-based crimes. In reality, sexual assault and rape have nothing to do with gender, and should be treated as serious problems regardless of the sex and/or gender of both the victim and perpetrator. Sexual assault and rape are almost entirely about gender, because the effects and circumstances surrounding the crime show quite a difference between men and women; there are typically different causes and different issues to face. For example, men have to deal with the fact that they're more likely to be rasped by another man, or that if they're subject to sexual assault by a woman, that they're likely to face a "you're a man, you can't be raped" attitude. These are different challenges from those faced by women.
booruguru 13y ago
The problem is we can't talk this "men issues" without being called "anti-feminist." In fact, any attempt to talk about the struggles of being a man is invariable associated with anti-woman rhetoric. It's as if feminists want to have a monopoly on victimhood. It's an incredibly bizarre situation. EDIT: The downvotes only further illustrate my point.
- noobiemcfoob 13y ago
  I would never go so far as to claim "feminists want to have a monopoly on victimhood," but talking about these types of issues from a male perspective requires walking a thin that can easily be misconstrued as more 'red pill' ranting.
  - smoyer 13y ago
    The author of the study is described as a feminist and specifically says we need to talk about sexual assault as experienced by men. Let's applaud feminism that's aimed at that kind of equality!
    - rustynails 13y ago
      Let's not applaud ANY feminism. Would you applaud a chauvinist for being a chauvinist? No, you wouldn't. Do not accept sexism from anyone. I do not consider recognizing a biological and quantifiable difference as sexist. Next time you read the word feminist, think chauvinist and see if you feel differently... I'm sure you will. Now, if someone said "respect the author, despite being sexist", I'd support that.
- arbutus 13y ago
  This is incredibly false. Any feminist will tell you that most rape does not fit the "large stranger overpowers a woman in the streets" scenario. This is what people are talking about when they talk about rape culture.
  - Crake 13y ago
marincounty 13y ago
I didn't read this study, but when I was younger I read, "You are going to prison". It pointed out that so many rapes are carried out in prison. Even twenty years ago, my friends girlfriend said, 'Well, they deserve it!". My come back was 'but wendy, most are in there for non violent drug offenses. friends girlfriend, "Well that's not a legitimate book anyways--I was written by a ex-con". Well the book scared me.
- thret 13y ago
  For a different perspective of sexuality in a male only environment, I recommend Surprised By Joy, by C. S. Lewis. It begins with his life in boarding school. Lewis could quite easily have been describing life in prison. I found it astonishing.
ffn 13y ago
Man, I come to HN expecting articles about the latest javascript MVVCVCCMCCV framework, the release log of some marginally different overhyped product, yet another person flaming DHH for expressing his opinion on anything, etc... but always wind up staying for these gender politics articles. This place is like 4chan/g/ without the anime.
mudil 13y ago
Men issues go beyond that. Men have shorter life expectancy than women. They have higher morbidity rates. Majority of work-related deaths are men. Unlike breast cancer, that affects 1 out 8 women, prostate cancer is in 90%+ of elderly men. ( But it is less aggressive.) Rates of substance abuse are higher in men. In pretty much every health metrics, men do worse than women.
- adventured 13y ago
  Not to mention the immense college education, high school graduation, and literacy problems for young men that somehow have managed to not be a national discussion issue.
parennoob 13y ago
Pretty sure even these statistics are underreported. For example, when in college, I have been molested by women at least twice without consent, and have never reported it -- principally for fear of ridicule from the authorities and fellow students. If you include the question that led to the famous '1 in 4 women are raped in college' statistic (http://aspiringeconomist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/rape-statistics-1-in-4/ http://aspiringeconomist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/rape-stati...) -- I have been sexually assaulted around 10-15 times. Colleges have very few or no policies about sexual assaults against men. This is unfortunate.
malandrew 13y ago
Once you take into account that women usually friend-zone a man before they've had the chance to have sex and men usually friend-zone a women after they've had sex (from once to many times). This isn't surprising at all. I've certainly been in situations where I've been aggressively prompted to participate in sexual intercourse with a former partner or current partner I was losing sexual interest in. I was never "made to penetrate" because I was explicit in my intent not to participate, but I can completely see how other men put in the same position being pressured to participate in a sexual act in which they have no interest/desire. Just because two people have had consensual sex at least once, does not mean that both are interested in participating in additional sexual acts.
- Pxtl 13y ago
  ... what? See, this is why I really don't like it when this kind of issue appears on HN.
  - malandrew 13y ago
    What's confusing about what I wrote? I've had many conversations about that observation with the sample of the population known as my friends and acquaintances and they generally agree. There exists the possibility that there are samples of the population for which this anecdotal information does not apply. This observation only needs to be valid for some of the general population to support under-reported figures for this type of sexual coercion. As it stands, your comment is unsubstantiated as to why my comment is why you don't like these kinds of issues on HN. Does my observation make you uncomfortable? Or do you disagree? Or do you consider it to be an overly broad generalization. I'm been on HN for a while and have earned most of my karma from comments (not hitting the front page), and based on past experience, my comment isn't really that out of line. The only thing I see I could have done differently is to put a disclaimer that its possibly that my observation is overly broad and based on many instances of anecdotal observations (n > 50 && n < 100)

102 points by tokenadult 13y ago

Surprised that this one didn't get any comment so far. This is 100% contrary to popular belief. Another point that often surprises people is that most of violence occurs in the family, perpetrated by people that the victim knows extremely well.

Raphmedia 13y ago
I guess that depends where you live. Where I come from (near Montréal), the issue has been talked of a lot and there are posters in colleges and universities. Probably high schools too, but I wouldn't know. I didn't comment when I saw this thread because I thought "well, that's common knowledge..." Interesting article on an important issue nonetheless. I'm not downplaying the fact that men get raped. This is an important issue and people should be aware of it. I did upvote the thread.
- marvin 13y ago
  I personally have at least one male friend who was by any sensible definition raped by a woman, as an adult. There is good reason to believe that this is an extremely unreported type of crime, and the data appears to back it up. I've been talking about the NISVS 2010 study for two years now, and no one believes me when I point out what its surveys show. [Edit: I see by now a lot of people have commented on this story. What stands out to me is that still, even in the face of the data mentioned in this story, much of the discussion revolves around prison rape with a male perpetrator. One of the points in this story is that even prison rape doesn't tell the most shocking part of the story of male victims of sexual abuse. Paraphrasing from the story: One of the studies of the Bureau of Justice data notes that in a certain subset of the data, 46% of the male victims of sexual assault reported a female perpetrator. Citation: http://jmm.sagepub.com/content/12/3/275.abstract http://jmm.sagepub.com/content/12/3/275.abstract This discussion is so far outside of people's gender norms and assumptions that it becomes hard to have a proper debate without constantly referencing the data. These are currently the best firm data sources we have on this subject, and the narrative should eventually change to reflect the available information. Women can be and sometimes are sexual offenders, and not only towards other women and children]. [2nd edit: Aaaaaaand it's flagged off the front page. Glad I was here two hours ago, or I would have missed this excellent summary of the latest studies in a very interesting branch of sociology. The large majority of HN users should really broaden their horizons a little].
  - Crake 13y ago
    >Aaaaaaand it's flagged off the front page. Any discussion of men's issues is usually quickly suppressed by the usual parties. :/
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

rhizome 13y ago

Begging the question. Who is saying they aren't?

yebyen 13y ago
Well, there's the new legal definition of rape, according to justice.gov, which reads... The new definition of rape is: “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” [1] The headline said sexual assault, not rape, so presumably they are aware of this definition and chose not to invoke it. But this definition precludes the possibility of men being raped by women who force themselves onto the men. [1]: http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/January/12-ag-018.html http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/January/12-ag-018.html
- msandford 13y ago
  > But this definition precludes the possibility of men being raped by women who force themselves onto the men. I'm not so sure about that. It says "penetration...without the consent of the victim" and it doesn't specify that the victim must be penetrated. It defines the act that must happen, and it specifies that it must happen without the consent of the victim. But it doesn't specify if the victim is penetrating or being penetrated. It does take a careful reading to parse correctly though, so your point largely stands.
  - makomk 13y ago
    As written it reads as though the victim is the one being penetrated, but doesn't explicitly state it. I've always figured that whoever wrote it simply didn't realise that the victim might be the one doing the penetrating and so didn't even think about whether that should be included or excluded in the definition.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  In addition, the UK definition of rape specifically and unequivocally refers to male-on-female rape: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1

Pxtl 13y ago

... can we please keep this kind of gender politicking off of Hacker News? I mean, I get the cases where it's directly relevant to the software development industry, like the Github debacle, but this sort of thing is purely the domain of MRAs and SJWs and women's studies departments and the like.

InclinedPlane 13y ago
The loudest voices in the debate may at times be at the extremes, but the issue is still enormously relevant. I would say it's especially relevant here, though not necessarily this particular story. The way women are treated online is still very, very much different from the way men are treated. And this has widespread and significant effects on damned near everything. Whether it's the structure and makeup of online communities (like this one) or the acceptance of women's voices in online gaming and tech journalism to the participation of women in hacking/development activities and the encouragement/discouragement they receive to do so, and so on.
- Pxtl 13y ago
  > The way women are treated online is still very, very much different from the way men are treated. But the article is not about that. The article is about male rape. Which is a subject that produces nothing but endless, meaningless flamewars.
EliRivers 13y ago
Men being raped is purely the domain of women's studies departments? What kind of schooling did you have?
kirse 13y ago
Sorry to see you're getting downvoted, I agree with you though. Been here for many, many days and these sort of easy-drama articles have unfortunately become more of the norm over the years. They tend to capture everyone's attention but not really add much value from a strictly hacker/startup perspective. Best thing you can do is just flag and move on, or log out and set your homepage to /best. FWIW, the founding father has moved on from the site, so what does that tell you about where its been headed?

chimeracoder 13y ago

I'm not surprised to read this. Any statistics about rape have to be taken with a huge helping of salt, because of all the issues surrounding data collection and self-reporting. However, I have read at least some reasonably reputable sources citing that in over half of all rapes that occur in the US, the victim is male[0]. Even if this is an overstatement, it's clear that the classic "man physically overpowers woman" narrative of rape is false - both because of the gender assumptions and because rape does not always involve physical dominance. It's kind of sad that sexual assault and rape are oftentimes viewed through the lens of gender-based crimes. In reality, sexual assault and rape have nothing to do with gender, and should be treated as serious problems regardless of the sex and/or gender of both the victim and perpetrator. By perpetuating a false image of rape/assault, we end up with a broken matched filter[1] for what constitutes rape. As a result, people tell themselves that what they experienced "wasn't really rape" - because the victim is male, or because they were under the influence, or because they were married to the perpetrator, or any other number of reasons. And this is how we end up with victims who stay silent. [0] This is not the same thing as saying that over half of all rape victims are male! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matched_filter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matched_filter

yebyen 13y ago
I am not sure how your [0] can be true. The only scenario I can imagine where it is true, there are a lot of men who are raped repeatedly, but not as many women raped repeatedly, or more individual women victims. Please clarify what you meant... citation would also be nice.
- baldeagle 13y ago
  I believe that is the implication. Think of incarcerated populations.
matthewmacleod 13y ago
Even if this is an overstatement, it's clear that the classic "man physically overpowers woman" narrative of rape is false - both because of the gender assumptions and because rape does not always involve physical dominance. I don't think this is really a classic narrative regarding rape. If anything, a lot of discussion of late has focused explicitly around how that's so often not the case. It's kind of sad that sexual assault and rape are oftentimes viewed through the lens of gender-based crimes. In reality, sexual assault and rape have nothing to do with gender, and should be treated as serious problems regardless of the sex and/or gender of both the victim and perpetrator. Sexual assault and rape are almost entirely about gender, because the effects and circumstances surrounding the crime show quite a difference between men and women; there are typically different causes and different issues to face. For example, men have to deal with the fact that they're more likely to be rasped by another man, or that if they're subject to sexual assault by a woman, that they're likely to face a "you're a man, you can't be raped" attitude. These are different challenges from those faced by women.

booruguru 13y ago

The problem is we can't talk this "men issues" without being called "anti-feminist." In fact, any attempt to talk about the struggles of being a man is invariable associated with anti-woman rhetoric. It's as if feminists want to have a monopoly on victimhood. It's an incredibly bizarre situation. EDIT: The downvotes only further illustrate my point.

noobiemcfoob 13y ago
I would never go so far as to claim "feminists want to have a monopoly on victimhood," but talking about these types of issues from a male perspective requires walking a thin that can easily be misconstrued as more 'red pill' ranting.
- smoyer 13y ago
  The author of the study is described as a feminist and specifically says we need to talk about sexual assault as experienced by men. Let's applaud feminism that's aimed at that kind of equality!
  - rustynails 13y ago
    Let's not applaud ANY feminism. Would you applaud a chauvinist for being a chauvinist? No, you wouldn't. Do not accept sexism from anyone. I do not consider recognizing a biological and quantifiable difference as sexist. Next time you read the word feminist, think chauvinist and see if you feel differently... I'm sure you will. Now, if someone said "respect the author, despite being sexist", I'd support that.
arbutus 13y ago
This is incredibly false. Any feminist will tell you that most rape does not fit the "large stranger overpowers a woman in the streets" scenario. This is what people are talking about when they talk about rape culture.
- Crake 13y ago

marincounty 13y ago

I didn't read this study, but when I was younger I read, "You are going to prison". It pointed out that so many rapes are carried out in prison. Even twenty years ago, my friends girlfriend said, 'Well, they deserve it!". My come back was 'but wendy, most are in there for non violent drug offenses. friends girlfriend, "Well that's not a legitimate book anyways--I was written by a ex-con". Well the book scared me.

thret 13y ago
For a different perspective of sexuality in a male only environment, I recommend Surprised By Joy, by C. S. Lewis. It begins with his life in boarding school. Lewis could quite easily have been describing life in prison. I found it astonishing.

ffn 13y ago

Man, I come to HN expecting articles about the latest javascript MVVCVCCMCCV framework, the release log of some marginally different overhyped product, yet another person flaming DHH for expressing his opinion on anything, etc... but always wind up staying for these gender politics articles. This place is like 4chan/g/ without the anime.

mudil 13y ago

Men issues go beyond that. Men have shorter life expectancy than women. They have higher morbidity rates. Majority of work-related deaths are men. Unlike breast cancer, that affects 1 out 8 women, prostate cancer is in 90%+ of elderly men. ( But it is less aggressive.) Rates of substance abuse are higher in men. In pretty much every health metrics, men do worse than women.

adventured 13y ago
Not to mention the immense college education, high school graduation, and literacy problems for young men that somehow have managed to not be a national discussion issue.

parennoob 13y ago

Pretty sure even these statistics are underreported. For example, when in college, I have been molested by women at least twice without consent, and have never reported it -- principally for fear of ridicule from the authorities and fellow students. If you include the question that led to the famous '1 in 4 women are raped in college' statistic (http://aspiringeconomist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/rape-statistics-1-in-4/ http://aspiringeconomist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/rape-stati...) -- I have been sexually assaulted around 10-15 times. Colleges have very few or no policies about sexual assaults against men. This is unfortunate.

malandrew 13y ago

Once you take into account that women usually friend-zone a man before they've had the chance to have sex and men usually friend-zone a women after they've had sex (from once to many times). This isn't surprising at all. I've certainly been in situations where I've been aggressively prompted to participate in sexual intercourse with a former partner or current partner I was losing sexual interest in. I was never "made to penetrate" because I was explicit in my intent not to participate, but I can completely see how other men put in the same position being pressured to participate in a sexual act in which they have no interest/desire. Just because two people have had consensual sex at least once, does not mean that both are interested in participating in additional sexual acts.

Pxtl 13y ago
... what? See, this is why I really don't like it when this kind of issue appears on HN.
- malandrew 13y ago
  What's confusing about what I wrote? I've had many conversations about that observation with the sample of the population known as my friends and acquaintances and they generally agree. There exists the possibility that there are samples of the population for which this anecdotal information does not apply. This observation only needs to be valid for some of the general population to support under-reported figures for this type of sexual coercion. As it stands, your comment is unsubstantiated as to why my comment is why you don't like these kinds of issues on HN. Does my observation make you uncomfortable? Or do you disagree? Or do you consider it to be an overly broad generalization. I'm been on HN for a while and have earned most of my karma from comments (not hitting the front page), and based on past experience, my comment isn't really that out of line. The only thing I see I could have done differently is to put a disclaimer that its possibly that my observation is overly broad and based on many instances of anecdotal observations (n > 50 && n < 100)