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You're right that there is a philosophical difference, but opponents of Obama's plan are being represented unfairly by those who frame the "debate" in the way i

You're right that there is a philosophical difference, but opponents of Obama's plan are being represented unfairly by those who frame the "debate" in the way in which you just did. All anecdotal arguments aside, the premise that more government is the only avenue for reform (held by yourself and other "progressives") is why both sides can't seem to agree on anything more than the idea that reform is needed. Around 40% of the American health care system is already managed by the government. The idea that we have a free market health care system that is failing the less fortunate in our country is downright false. In Obama's current plan, there are plenty of free market solutions to expand coverage and bring down costs that are being ignored and avoided (some due to lobbyists and special interests and others by, IMO, power-hungry politicians with a deeper, anti-capitalist agenda). Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of unintended consequences from prior government policies (with good intentions) that have created some of the problems we have today. Without going into the specifics or giving your last sentence a serious thought, I would just like to say this: Both sides (for the most part) have good intentions so let's not paint each other as evil. Here's a good place to start to understand the other side: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203609204574316172512242220.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020360920457431...

javanix 17y ago
Agreed on all of your points other than "power-hungry politicians with a deeper, anti-capitalist agenda". There are some true morons in office in this country, especially most of Congress, but if you can provide me with a single example of an elected official who appears to be truly "anti-capitalist" I'd be shocked.
- jfornear 17y ago
  I've heard Rep. Jan Schakowsky say some things about wanting to destroy the private health insurance industry straight up. Her supporters erupted into a wild applause, too. Disturbs the hell out of me.
jimbokun 17y ago
Just read the article. The problem is, people are not ready to listen right now to the idea that markets naturally produce the best outcomes. We are trying to get out of a world wide economic collapse that was the result of unregulated markets. At least, that is the general perception. And I must admit, it is my perception as well. More specifically, if you make a mistake in the market for a new MP3 player, you just have a crappy MP3 player and you're out a couple hundred bucks or so, and you buy a different brand next time. If you make a mistake buying health insurance, and only discover that your policy does not guarantee you the right to continue purchasing insurance at your existing rate when you are diagnosed with an illness, it could result in bankruptcy or even death. So you understand the hesitancy to trust unregulated market forces when the issue is literally life and death.
- jfornear 17y ago
  I would disagree (and others share this view) that the economic collapse was the result of unregulated markets. It was the result of bad regulation (e.g., the CRA of '95 caused the amount of mortgages issued that were subprime to jump from 1% to 12% by '98 alone) and bad government interference (e.g., low interest rates under Greenspan made money too cheap for too long). Greed was indeed a huge factor, but it came from directions that aren't currently being fingered. Now, I'm not going to defend all private institutions: AIG, for one quick example, had some sketchy things going on that definitely need looking into. But, for the most part, I am skeptical of any kind of central planning. I believe the federal government should stay out of things like health insurance. If Washington didn't help create the current environment where we rely so much on employer-based health insurance, maybe we would have individual health savings accounts and costs wouldn't have gotten so out of control because individuals would actually care what they were paying. And, in turn, hospitals would actually care what they are charging (i.e., competition). I mean, just read the Wikipedia page on HSAs to get a feel for how complicated one tiny part of our system is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account. I don't feel comfortable having this system reformed so quickly (especially when these bills aren't being read!). So much of the motives behind the current movement are purely political. I would rather take it slow and have a real, honest look at the problems from both sides. I think the ultimate obstacle is that we perceive America to be as free market as it gets, but that notion is, in reality, so far from the truth. This belief seems to render any free-market approach to reform as "out-dated" or "pro status quo". Sorry if I got off-topic. I've been trying to keep my political thoughts off of HN for too long. :)

javanix 17y ago

Agreed on all of your points other than "power-hungry politicians with a deeper, anti-capitalist agenda". There are some true morons in office in this country, especially most of Congress, but if you can provide me with a single example of an elected official who appears to be truly "anti-capitalist" I'd be shocked.

jfornear 17y ago
I've heard Rep. Jan Schakowsky say some things about wanting to destroy the private health insurance industry straight up. Her supporters erupted into a wild applause, too. Disturbs the hell out of me.

jimbokun 17y ago

Just read the article. The problem is, people are not ready to listen right now to the idea that markets naturally produce the best outcomes. We are trying to get out of a world wide economic collapse that was the result of unregulated markets. At least, that is the general perception. And I must admit, it is my perception as well. More specifically, if you make a mistake in the market for a new MP3 player, you just have a crappy MP3 player and you're out a couple hundred bucks or so, and you buy a different brand next time. If you make a mistake buying health insurance, and only discover that your policy does not guarantee you the right to continue purchasing insurance at your existing rate when you are diagnosed with an illness, it could result in bankruptcy or even death. So you understand the hesitancy to trust unregulated market forces when the issue is literally life and death.

jfornear 17y ago
I would disagree (and others share this view) that the economic collapse was the result of unregulated markets. It was the result of bad regulation (e.g., the CRA of '95 caused the amount of mortgages issued that were subprime to jump from 1% to 12% by '98 alone) and bad government interference (e.g., low interest rates under Greenspan made money too cheap for too long). Greed was indeed a huge factor, but it came from directions that aren't currently being fingered. Now, I'm not going to defend all private institutions: AIG, for one quick example, had some sketchy things going on that definitely need looking into. But, for the most part, I am skeptical of any kind of central planning. I believe the federal government should stay out of things like health insurance. If Washington didn't help create the current environment where we rely so much on employer-based health insurance, maybe we would have individual health savings accounts and costs wouldn't have gotten so out of control because individuals would actually care what they were paying. And, in turn, hospitals would actually care what they are charging (i.e., competition). I mean, just read the Wikipedia page on HSAs to get a feel for how complicated one tiny part of our system is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account. I don't feel comfortable having this system reformed so quickly (especially when these bills aren't being read!). So much of the motives behind the current movement are purely political. I would rather take it slow and have a real, honest look at the problems from both sides. I think the ultimate obstacle is that we perceive America to be as free market as it gets, but that notion is, in reality, so far from the truth. This belief seems to render any free-market approach to reform as "out-dated" or "pro status quo". Sorry if I got off-topic. I've been trying to keep my political thoughts off of HN for too long. :)