5 ms·

Have you had to deal with the number of Indian or Chinese students trying to push into a program they have no place being in? I get it's the poverty back home

by monochr 12y ago

Have you had to deal with the number of Indian or Chinese students trying to push into a program they have no place being in? I get it's the poverty back home that makes them desperate and nothing to do with race, but the one time my former department accepted a Chinese student from mainland China it was a disaster, he was rude, hardly spoke English, his credentials were most likely fake and made the whole thing incredibly unpleasant to everyone with how pushy he was. Needless to say he was kicked out after a year because he kept failing his classes. This isn't racism, this is people not wanting to be scammed.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
Isn't biased stereotyping exactly what racism is though? A few bad apples can spoil it for everyone else? "Hey watch the black guy, I was mugged by once...", if you find that sickening, this is quite similar to that.
- monochr 12y ago
  Only if it's based on race. You must be American since you missed the part where I said it's the _poor_ Indians and Chinese that are desperate and most departments want nothing to do with them. That isn't racism, that is wealth discrimination. By contrast the poor Australians aren't applying to post graduate programs in mathematics, they are too busy being drunk at the footy, so they are not a group anyone had to worry about at my university. But if one of them showed up with fake credentials they would be as disruptive to the department as that Chinese student was, and would fly out just as quickly.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    I doubt this Chinese student was poor if he could get convincing enough fake qualifications; he was probably middle class with city hukou and resourceful parents, but just didn't apply himself because his parents were always able to solve his problems for him (also, very likely an only child). This is actually quite common in China; the poor Chinese students are the ones that have to work their asses off because their parents can't give them any special advantages. I have my own biases, but having lived in China for so long, they aren't based on ethnicity anymore (e.g. watch that guy in starbucks wearing farmer clothes, he might try to steal my computer).
    - monochr 12y ago
      He might have been rich by Chinese standards but he was still poor by Western ones. He seemed to be vastly more interested in finding a job outside the university so he could stay in the country than actually trying to study for the classes he was taking. And again note, I didn't say he was lazy, as far as we could tell he was taking a dozen interviews a week for work. He was however a complete academic deadbeat and terrible investment for the university. In short, we got scammed, someone came over on a student visa, only to try their hardest to migrate permanently without adding anything of value to the university and group he was meant to be working in.
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        > He might have been rich by Chinese standards but he was still poor by Western ones. Ugh. It is possible that his parents were richer than yours; they could be driving black Audi's, have multiple Ayi's (house keepers), and multiple apartments; you really can't tell! It is true that having their kids get a job in a western country is important even to middle class/rich Chinese; even they realize how unbalanced the employment situation is even if it often works in their favor. > And again note, I didn't say he was lazy, as far as we could tell he was taking a dozen interviews a week for work. This makes sense. They can lazy academically but, instilled by the habits of their parents, realize that the key to success is networking and career climbing rather than studying.
- danieltillett 12y ago
  Yes it is racism. I am not sure what to do though if you are on the receiving end of a lot of spam-like emails from people from certain countries. When I get emails from single women purportedly in eastern Europe wanting to meet me these all head straight to the trash. I would not really consider myself racist for doing this.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    On the emails, I agree that there is no choice to filter just based on volume. However, as for generalizing based on direct personal experiences, this cross a line where the abstract sender of an email becomes a real person. That begins to be a real problem.
    - danieltillett 12y ago
      Yes. Individuals should always be treated as individuals and not a member of some heterogeneous group. Racism is a lazy way of thinking - instead of bothering to make judgments based on the individual, a racist just decides that all individuals of group x are the same for some particular characteristic.
      - lutusp 12y ago
        > instead of bothering to make judgments based on the individual, a racist just decides that all individuals of group x are the same for some particular characteristic. I define a racist as someone comfortable making blanket denunciations of arbitrary groups, without it ever crossing his mind that, according to well-established logical rules, his group will eventually become the target.
        danieltillett 12y ago
        Racism is not always arbitrary nor negative. A good example would be the casual racism implicit is statements like "Jews are smart" or "Chinese are hardworking". Both statements are highly racist and reflect lazy thinking - while I have met many smart jewish people and lots of hard working people who were born in China, I have also met a number dumber than a box of hammers and lazier than a tree full of sloths.
PhasmaFelis 12y ago
"We accepted one Chinese student and he was terrible, therefore all Chinese students are terrible" is exactly racism. Racism isn't just marching in Klan rallies and voting for David Duke and "negroes need not apply". In the modern western world, that's the weakest, most ineffectual racism, because it's easy to call out and despise. The real, insidious, devastating racism is thoughtful, well-meaning people coming up with carefully-considered justifications to stereotype huge groups of people. It's superficially very rational--black people are statistically more likely more likely to commit crimes, so doesn't it make sense for the police to keep a closer eye on them? Terrorists tend to be Muslims, so isn't it safer if we don't let Muslims near anything dangerous? But a lot of local, short-term "rational" decisions can add up to a monstrous and oppressive society.

by monochr 12y ago

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

Isn't biased stereotyping exactly what racism is though? A few bad apples can spoil it for everyone else? "Hey watch the black guy, I was mugged by once...", if you find that sickening, this is quite similar to that.

monochr 12y ago
Only if it's based on race. You must be American since you missed the part where I said it's the _poor_ Indians and Chinese that are desperate and most departments want nothing to do with them. That isn't racism, that is wealth discrimination. By contrast the poor Australians aren't applying to post graduate programs in mathematics, they are too busy being drunk at the footy, so they are not a group anyone had to worry about at my university. But if one of them showed up with fake credentials they would be as disruptive to the department as that Chinese student was, and would fly out just as quickly.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  I doubt this Chinese student was poor if he could get convincing enough fake qualifications; he was probably middle class with city hukou and resourceful parents, but just didn't apply himself because his parents were always able to solve his problems for him (also, very likely an only child). This is actually quite common in China; the poor Chinese students are the ones that have to work their asses off because their parents can't give them any special advantages. I have my own biases, but having lived in China for so long, they aren't based on ethnicity anymore (e.g. watch that guy in starbucks wearing farmer clothes, he might try to steal my computer).
  - monochr 12y ago
    He might have been rich by Chinese standards but he was still poor by Western ones. He seemed to be vastly more interested in finding a job outside the university so he could stay in the country than actually trying to study for the classes he was taking. And again note, I didn't say he was lazy, as far as we could tell he was taking a dozen interviews a week for work. He was however a complete academic deadbeat and terrible investment for the university. In short, we got scammed, someone came over on a student visa, only to try their hardest to migrate permanently without adding anything of value to the university and group he was meant to be working in.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      > He might have been rich by Chinese standards but he was still poor by Western ones. Ugh. It is possible that his parents were richer than yours; they could be driving black Audi's, have multiple Ayi's (house keepers), and multiple apartments; you really can't tell! It is true that having their kids get a job in a western country is important even to middle class/rich Chinese; even they realize how unbalanced the employment situation is even if it often works in their favor. > And again note, I didn't say he was lazy, as far as we could tell he was taking a dozen interviews a week for work. This makes sense. They can lazy academically but, instilled by the habits of their parents, realize that the key to success is networking and career climbing rather than studying.
danieltillett 12y ago
Yes it is racism. I am not sure what to do though if you are on the receiving end of a lot of spam-like emails from people from certain countries. When I get emails from single women purportedly in eastern Europe wanting to meet me these all head straight to the trash. I would not really consider myself racist for doing this.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  On the emails, I agree that there is no choice to filter just based on volume. However, as for generalizing based on direct personal experiences, this cross a line where the abstract sender of an email becomes a real person. That begins to be a real problem.
  - danieltillett 12y ago
    Yes. Individuals should always be treated as individuals and not a member of some heterogeneous group. Racism is a lazy way of thinking - instead of bothering to make judgments based on the individual, a racist just decides that all individuals of group x are the same for some particular characteristic.
    - lutusp 12y ago
      > instead of bothering to make judgments based on the individual, a racist just decides that all individuals of group x are the same for some particular characteristic. I define a racist as someone comfortable making blanket denunciations of arbitrary groups, without it ever crossing his mind that, according to well-established logical rules, his group will eventually become the target.
      - danieltillett 12y ago
        Racism is not always arbitrary nor negative. A good example would be the casual racism implicit is statements like "Jews are smart" or "Chinese are hardworking". Both statements are highly racist and reflect lazy thinking - while I have met many smart jewish people and lots of hard working people who were born in China, I have also met a number dumber than a box of hammers and lazier than a tree full of sloths.

PhasmaFelis 12y ago

"We accepted one Chinese student and he was terrible, therefore all Chinese students are terrible" is exactly racism. Racism isn't just marching in Klan rallies and voting for David Duke and "negroes need not apply". In the modern western world, that's the weakest, most ineffectual racism, because it's easy to call out and despise. The real, insidious, devastating racism is thoughtful, well-meaning people coming up with carefully-considered justifications to stereotype huge groups of people. It's superficially very rational--black people are statistically more likely more likely to commit crimes, so doesn't it make sense for the police to keep a closer eye on them? Terrorists tend to be Muslims, so isn't it safer if we don't let Muslims near anything dangerous? But a lot of local, short-term "rational" decisions can add up to a monstrous and oppressive society.